God Loops and Dev Priority
Ok, the long and short of this is a question : "Why do certain 'god loops' still exist, despite how apparently easy it is to fix them?" Surely the devs can take the time to fix existing content in addition to making new content.
To clarify what I mean, there are certain loops in this game that some people call "infinites" (they're not) that can waste a huge amount of a killers' time, to the point where they essentially become safe zones survivors can run to knowing any good killer will not chase them through said zone. These loops are extremely long (long enough, in some cases, to break chase and reset bloodlust) and generally unmindgameable due to their length or position, and thus the only way for a killer to deal with them is to leave survivors be if they can make it to said loops. Them being Mindgameable is a big deal, because mindgames are the main way loopable killers mitigate the amount of time waste per loop. Mindgames function both for the killer and the survivor, and are arguable the deepest expression of mechanical skill this game has at the moment - to have that taken away is to deny both sides meaningful interaction, and condemns the killer to deal with unmitigateable time waste with no way to respond. These issues are obviously more glaring against killers who have no way to mitigate these loops (Pig, Ghostface, Wraith, etc....even Hillbilly).
I know these are not "muh infinites", so don't come after me with the dumb yarn of "B-but if you do the loop perfectly for three minutes, you can get a hit on a survivor!!". That's a stupid thing to do if you're playing killer, because three minutes will lose you the game for a single hit. Period. My point is that these loops end games, and know this, can force killers to cede chases, massively reducing the amount of pressure they can exert on survivors or certain gens depending on spawns.
I also know not to chase survivors at these loops unless they really mess up. I am not arguing about strategy to mitigate these loops that convey near complete safety, I am arguing about why they still exist. There should not be designated safe areas for survivors, especially ones that have generators in or near them. The conventional strategy should never be "That part of the map is so broken that you should implicitly know not to set foot there"
Furthermore, I know that there should be a mix of weaker and stronger loops in the game. I'm not advocating for nuking all strong loops in the game (Although I'd like it if Fractured Cowshed's numerous safe loops got nuked). Killer shack is a strong loop, it's fine and it appears on almost every map. I simply think there are massive, gaping holes in DBD's map design that can be exploited in a way unbecoming of a balanced game.
Some examples of "god loops", in my opinion, include
- The Ironworks lower floor window loop. It's quite long, not mindgameable, and can be milked three times before the entity blocks it, assuming your chase isn't broken for some arbitrary reason while looping it, in which case a pallet often spawns in the path of the loop as well as there being adjacent jungle gym tiles.
- Wretched Shop can spawn with two open windows facing each other, creating a loop that may as well be infinite, as it goes from two fast vaulting windows around the back of the shop with sometimes multiple pallets along the way or in reach. This thing may as well be infinite and there is nothing a killer can do to mitigate this on their own.
- Torment Creek has the same issue as Wretched Shop that turns the back third of the map into an absolute safe zone, even if only one window spawns on it
- Mother's House has some ridiculous window placements that can occur in the central building that only exacerbate the map's existing problems (Size, lack of cover around the central building, etc).
- Wretched Abbatoir's window spawn can range from strong to outright broken at times. Many God Window spawns.
- Lery's double window near the strong Library loop. This one can be mindgamed if the survivor is bad, but in my experience, good survivors abuse this to the point where I don't even check anymore.
- Remove Haddonfield please.
- There are definitely more that I see when I play, but these are the ones that I always look to exploit as a survivor and dread to see as a killer. Remind me of some more.
Keep in mind, these loops often can work in combination with spawned pallets and jungle gym structures that can further boost their strength.
My question, I guess to the developers is this : These loops seem quite easy to fix on their own. These loops are well known. Why have they not been addressed?
The devs have time to re-work Freddy Krueger and cook up a whole new map, killer, and two survivors for Stranger things, but they don't have time to tinker with the main buildings of a few maps? Am I really to believe that moving the Ironworks window over or stopping the Wretched Shop from spawning to adjacent windows is too much work for the developers when they have been extraordinarily productive in other areas? These problems are well known, and unlike other issues, the solutions seem relatively clear - why then, have they been left for so long?
The answer I expect is a bit disheartening. I assume they are going to leave these areas broken until some time in the long-awaited future where they finally "re-work" all the maps they have created, as they have done to Badham (which I have mixed feelings on, by the way). If this is the case, I fear that we will have to deal with (or enjoy) having areas of almost guaranteed safety in this game simply because the devs cannot bother to make minor tweaks to maps, instead promising "comprehensive reworks" to maps that perhaps will never come.
TL;DR : If the devs can pump out new killers and content consistently, why haven't they made minor mapping changes that could fix problems that have been known to exist for years?
With everyone talking about big, core issues, I think it'd be easier to ask for a change that is more easily fulfilled.
Comments
What? There is np counter to loops like the window loop of the Ironworks map, all you can do is chase a survivor three times around that loop until the vault gets blocked. Also, a 1 minute chase is if anything average and not even that good for a killer, since gens can be done quite fast.
Maps don't need these ridiculously safe loops that take no skill since you are just runing around that same loop without being in any risk that you might get hit by the killer.
Maps need these ridiculously safe window loops to be altered so survivors at least can't run killers around those loops three times, need more mindgameable pallet loops and then just more pallets in general. That's the plan of the devs. Have more pallets on a map, but more mindgameable ones and not as many safe ones, and not have these safe vault loops that can be looped until the entity blocks the vaults. Of course some safe pallet loops are still fine, as long as there aren't too many.
use bamboozle, like their are perk and powers that help like trapper or body blocking hag to end loops like that its as simple as thats
Perks should never be solution for game's core problem! Jesus…
And sure because every killer likes to play Trapper and Hag just to prevent random generated infinities :D
I completely agree. They did a mass map fix up ages ago to make less abusive loops with lots of windows, yet somehow a few of the worst just snuck through untouched.
There's plenty of maps that are fun and fair without psuedo-infinites that show it would be more than fair to fix these ones.
The people arguing that it's somehow "skill" to beat people when all game is just "I ran to the Wretched Shop loop, I'm invincible for 5 gens now" are just talking out of their ass because they'd prefer running around a square they cannot physically be caught on than actually learn to run in a proper chase.
Some perks were made specifically for that reason. Some perks are made to fix solution people complain about like for example people complained about gen rushing so they added ruin. And its not just trapper or hag, thoses were examples like nurse doesnt have this problem neither spirit because she can silent phase. Who except for u says Perks should never be solution for game's core problem. The devs may have that intent, they add new perks to counter other perks to fix some problem people are having and to make somethings more fun. They didnt just a add a new perk because they need more stuff. Also its not a core problem since spirit, hag, trapper, nurse and other perks can counter it easily, its probably a core problem for noobs who are like grey ranks. Thoses are the only people i see complaining about loops and that like pro players dont have this problem because they know how to counter these plays
It's especially problematic because survivors have an essentially unlimited amount of pallets on most maps in addition to a very strong loop they can get to from any part of the map if they take a hit. I know it's not literally unlimited, but realistically, the games are over at red ranks before you put a significant dent in the amount of pallets. It's easy to say "Just don't chase the Ironworks Window", but if those survivors are on comms, I guarantee you every one of them is running to that window once they realize you don't want to chase it.
That's just awful, honestly. I shouldn't be forced to use Bamboozle just because certain maps have these terribly designed window loops that are safe spots for survivors, if I don't always want to just leave survivors as soon as they get to that safe spot.
yeah that fine, you do not have to use it, you can as well use other killers but stop complaining or saying they need to be changed if you arent willing to use your equipment at hand like for example dont complain about gen rushing if you dont have ruin on. Perks, killers, power add ons and offerines were design to help prevent things like god loops, add new fun stuff and so both survivor and killer had perk can could counter each other. If you chose not to use that then its fine but if you dont use it dont complain about stuff being op.
Didn't think this thread would still be kicking.
I think you're missing the point here. I was saying that god loops / safe zones on the map are quite easily fixable, but for some reason they are not being fixed. It doesn't make that much sense that there are minor tweaks that would greatly improve the balance of certain maps, yet BHVR hasn't made these fixes yet. It wouldn't be much work for their team and it'd get them brownie points with the playerbase.
Also, I don't know who you watch, but the "pro" players I've seen complain or laugh about the strength of the loops I mentioned all the time. Everyone here I think knows that it's stupid to chase a survivor into such a safe zone, and "pro" killers deal with these maps by simply giving up that portion of the map.
The game shouldn't be like that. The most sensible option for a Killer should not be "Just drop any chase that goes near a certain area of the map, because you can never win there". Having to start a game one to three gens "forfeited" simply because they're in an indefensible part of the map is a sign that the map is imbalanced.
As for Bamboozle, a lot of the strength of these structures is centered around the fact that Bamboozle DOESN'T work to mitigate them. I've pretty much stopped using Bamboozle entirely, because most windows are on short enough loops that you can mind-game and don't need it, and on the God loops, there's almost always an adjacent pallet or two, another window that makes Bamboozle useless, or a jungle gym that lets you wait out Bamboozle's timer. It's a poor band-aid fix.
@Peanits I know yall are busy with Stranger Things hype and churning out more new content, but is there any possibility that the structures I mentioned will get looked at for minor changes any time soon? I know that you all ideally have Badham-tier reworks for all the maps planned, but knowing how fast yall work and how long it takes to implement those reworks, can you not simply do a quick pass and fix the maps "for now"?
To be honest, I'm pretty unimpressed by the Springwood maps. Plenty of loops and so many pallets.
I have been wondering the same thing as you my friend.
And honestly, I can think of only two reasons. The devs are either incompetent in regard to map design or they are simply unwilling to make the changes.
I would guess they are unwilling.
If the devs removed the really strong loops that exist on some maps, it would probably start an uproar in the community. Even though it's a totally justifiable nerf, there are some who want their side to remain overpowered.
The problem with like fixing god/safe loops mostly will mean they will be removed and if they are, then games last so little it most likly it becomes unfun and bloodpoints will become even harder for survivor to get and most likely for killers as well. And most Lilly the reason they havent fix it is because perks help stop this and so do many killers as well. Probably for them its fixed but for someone who finds it hard and doesnt pick the right killer or perks will say its broken. Like for example nurse doesnt have this problem if you go her. So saying its broken/needs to be fix i would say its just plainly complaining about fixed stuff because you suck and mini games like a little brat would do.
First of all I am one of those who thinkgs gen times are fine.
Second of all this is about the weaker killers. How is it bad if there's more variety in killer picks because certain killers suffer so much by this bad design.
Gen speed also isn't map depending, but those safe window loops are. We are not just complaining for no reason, people just think it's bad design and not very well balanced. Just saying we have the equipiment to deal with those loops. I don't want to be forced to always use one certain perk.
To be fair, the devs have already said they are reworking maps and getting rid of those safe window loops, so it is going to come sooner or later. This post was just about these loops being fixable very easily, and that they should be applied as soon as possible, and not first when we get the according map reworks.
Good survivors don't need to rely on those safe loops. Plus they are planning to add more mindgameable loops, but also increasing the amount of pallets spawn on a map. That's the intent, more pallets, but more mindgameable ones and not as many safe pallets.
I also don't think they need to get rid of those vaults, just alter them so survivors can't run around them three times. Maybe add a door to the vaults close enough so that they can't be looped three times, but still far enough away so survivors have a chance to get to some other loop.
Wreckers Shop, honestly, I think all they need to do is remove the tires on the side of one of the vaults. They don't even need to get rid of any of those two windows.
Requiring a perk in order to solve a problem effectively removes a perk slot from all Killers that suffer from the problem.
Requiring a certain type of Power to solve a problem effectively removes all Killers that don't have that Power.
That's why Leatherface and Wraith are so bad. It's why Pig and Legion are unviable. It's why doctor needs the brown addon effectively removing an addon slot from him, and it's why trapper automatically loses the 2 minutes or whatever needed to set up his traps before he can win chases on most maps.
Outside of T1 Myers can't do anything about most of these loops and needs T3 for the ones he can do something about. Plague can't do crap either unless they cleanse, which she can't force.
Huntress also gets screwed over on a lot of these loops and while Billy has a lot of power in general, none of that helps him here specifically.
The Killers that CAN deal with these loops with any amount of reliability are:
Give survivors more ways to break LOS and sneak away, then we can talk about removing even more loops. You did this. You're the reason looping has become so necessary.