So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
I'll try to use some water on this fire:
@Paddy4583 is stating that to use parts is practically a side quest to repair generators (not "part-generator" or "flat-generator", simply: generators). That is correct, because one can repair them faster through the accomplishment of the side quest, but it's not needed for completion.
Repairing generators without collecting any part is not a side quest: survivors can't escape without repairing generators, it's a main objective.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape instead is arguing that to complete flat generators is a side quest as much as completing part generators, because survivors don't need one more than the other. Could be true, but it's actually a strawman, because Paddy was simply stating that the main set "generators" is required, if those generators are pertaining the subset "flat" or "part" was not under discussion.
Now kiss.
@Edys
So you understand that there are separate routes (in this case 2) but there could be infinite. Now depending on the strength of a route, people would start to use it more often or less often, all based on the numbers.
Now imagine this:
Generators take 1000 seconds to repair; you need to repair 5.
Adding a part gives you a multiplier that equals removing 199 seconds from that generator (up to 995 = a 5 second generator).
See how route B is superior and how doing flat gens is (basically gamethrowingly) bad?
Route A is still not a side-quest. It's just a slow way of doing the main objective.
What is a stronger route is determined by the numbers.
What is a side-quest is determined by what it contributes to. Route A in this example is still doing the main objective and neither routes are mandatory.
It doesn't miss any point. Is sets in place the structure to nerf separate routes and provides a more functional system for in the late-game, that no longer requires us to have a replacement of the game the moment it starts malfunctioning (called the hatch).
@NuclearBurrito2
But you do still understand what a flat gen is right, nonetheless? I assume you even correctly understood that using a repair box still is doing a flat gen, where as Paddy failed to understand anything about it.
@Paddy4583
No we were talking about the version with my Part system.
Why the hell would we be talking about the base game and how you have to do gens in the base-game? There is literally one route there xD
You're creating imaginary opponents. No one says you don't have to do gens in the base-game.
What is said is that in my version you no longer have to do flat gens.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape, a main objective is something that needs to be done. A side objective is something that doesn't need to be done.
to do a generator (flat, part, whatever): required → main
to search for parts → not required → side
to not install parts → not required → side
@Paddy4583 is talking about the first case, you are not considering it because... I don't know why.
You then stated by my definition that gens are not required to be done so could be classed as a side quest, then you edited the comment after I replied,
but you already know this.
You don't have to sit on a flat generator (vanilla way).
Doing a generator =/= doing a flat generator.
If you add parts to a generator and finish it you are still doing a generator (the main objective) but you are no longer playing the vanilla route of finishing flat generators.
Did you understand my example?
@Paddy4583
@Edys
Maybe applying the example will make you understand that in a multi route, neither routes are mandatory;
Generators take 1000 seconds to repair.
You need to repair 5.
You can collect parts which translate to removing 199 seconds off of that generator, meaning that if you have 5, you only have to do 5 seconds of generator repair time.
Now you can choose. Will you sit on the generator for 1000 seconds or will you collect 5 parts before finishing that generator?
@AlwaysInAGoodShape , I fully understand what you are saying, are you sure you are reading me correctly, though?
We're saying exactly the same thing, so why don't you understand @Paddy4583 / @NuclearBurrito2 point? They are simply saying that at the end of the day you are still doing generators, if you call them flat or part or rainbow or unicorn, they still are generators.
Yes nuclear used the word flat generator differently from what you do, but that's just a problem of misunderstanding, it's obvious what he's referring to the fact that "you still have to press m1 to do a generator". I'm not saying I agree with him, but that's it.
Don't argue for the sake of arguing come on
He knows this though, but will continue to turn the conversation to fit his narrative, it’s his process, like how he starts referring to his ideas as a collective so it looks like he’s speaking on behalf of others, referring to himself as we and our.
That's not what I'm doing. So I assume you collected parts in my examples right?
Why did you not do the flat gens? You literally stated that that was mandatory?
What I've been pointing out is that everything is determined by the numbers and neither routes are mandatory, neither are they side-quests. They are simply 2 interrelated ways through which you can complete the main objective, with different pro's and cons.
The only basis on which one route gets chosen over the other is to what degree that is stronger under said conditions, which may vary throughout the match.
Which is why you just saw what you believed to be a mandatory route becoming a "side-quest".
@Paddy4583
So did you collect the parts or did you do a 1000 second gen?
@AlwaysInAGoodShape - no one is talking about your definition of flat generators, trust me. Everyone is talking about simply generators: they are the main objective. how you do them is a different story.
Yes, the name for doing them with parts is a Part-Generator. Doing it the vanilla way is a flat generator. That is literally what we are talking about.
language is consensus - when WE say "generators", we are talking about both generators with or without parts.
Literally all I'm doing is using 2 words to distinct between the 2 ways someone does generators and you reject it xD
How you do them is INDEED the story!;
Doing generators = Doing Flat generators + doing Part-Generators
Nobody disagrees with that xD
Which is why I say FLAT generators when I say that doing so is now optional, but you called it mandatory.
I'm not rejecting your definition, at all, I'm just pointing out that they were not using it when talking about "...still doing generators..."
There are 3 definitions right now:
They are talking about generators.
If you still disagree... I honestly can't explain this better
i think what paddy means is for an actual second objective besides working on gens in any capacity. such as perhaps a pc that you need to find access codes for in lerys/the game in order to escape etc
That's great and all. I'm not saying this suggestion doesn't have any merit. But at the end of the day you still are left with the fact that you have to slow down the game somehow and this part system simply doesn't do that.
There are ways we COULD do that (such as making generators require at least 1 part) but until I can say that in order to escape you must do gens, open the gates AND x the issue will still be there. 7 minutes just isn't enough time to kill everyone and that would be the amount of time for a singe person to do all of the gens AND open the gate (not counting travel time but also THAT IS JUST 1 PERSON WORKING ON GENS WHEN THERE ARE 4 SURVIVORS!)
Survivors can escape via the gate in 2 minutes without any perks or tools not counting travel time assuming they don't get chased at all. (80 seconds per gen*5 gens = 400 seconds, 400/4 survivors = 100 seconds + 20 seconds to open the gate = 120 seconds)
If you were to instead place 3 part crafting stations around the map which require 20 seconds to build and install into a generator and is required to do on every generator and then a power cell station in the basement which takes 10 seconds to acquire before opening a gate then that would be
(100 seconds per gen *5 gens = 500 seconds 500/4 = 125 seconds + 30 seconds to open the gate = 155 seconds)
Stuff like that. Having it so you could if you wanted to KEEP building parts and installing them for the mechanics you mentioned in the OP then that is no problem
Your definitions are correct.
But they are not talking about generators. Because doing generators is not 1 thing, as you've clearly pointed out yourself.
They are talking about flat generators.
In the vanilla game there's no need to distinguish between the 2 since doing a generator is practically the same since there are no other options.
They are saying that doing flat generators is mandatory. Not that doing a generator is mandatory;
You literally state here that doing the parts IS NOT a side-quest!
@AlwaysInAGoodShape what they are stating is that to do a flat generator or a part generator, is still doing a generator. If you don't believe me, ask them
I understand that.
But their claim is that when having 2 routes through which you can complete the main objective, 1 could be called a "side-quest", which is a false claim.
You really shouldn’t change your proposal halfway through in order to force your idea as the better alternative, it’s deceptional.
Adding a different way to do the same thing isn’t a secondary objective, As many people have already stated, no one would really bother because it’s unnecessary and as most people have already said, increasing gen times isn’t something people want, you know this which is why in your OP you never suggested the current gen time would be increased.
you stated you could decrease gen time by finding/making parts at designated areas.
Add that time to the time reduced doing the gen with parts and you haven’t gained anything, and like many have said this wouldn’t work of benefit solo players.
if secondary objectives are added it can’t be around the gens, and needs to be end game or early game, not just another way to do what we already have to.
What does this have to do with side-questing again? Nobody contests this claim.
Ah, but you're discussing which main route is META now. Not that either one of them is side-questing.
If you want to debate which one is META then I'm all in for that (:
I've been waiting for you to realise that the 2 are different.
Repairing a generator → MAIN quest
Repairing a part generator → alternative route to complete the main quest, which requires the completion of a side quest (...producing and installing parts)
Repairing a flat generator → main route to complete the main quest, which does not require anything aside from the generator.
...that said, the real point was not this meta-discussion, but the fact that @NuclearBurrito2 wanted a real alternative objective :P
And I’ve also not changed my stance from my original comment of people not doing this side quest, which is clearly explained in the above!
Your idea is nothing more then adding a third door and telling survivors it’s but now you have the option of 3 doors and not 2, but to open the third door you need to find a handle and 3 fuses and a battery and install them, but after that it opens instantly.
Okay it’s something extra in game, but it’s not a secondary objective, and it really doesn’t add anything new to the game play.
I can’t speak for everyone, but as a survivor when I say secondary objectvive, I mean new and different Things to do not additional steps or ways to do what we already have.
@Edys
Again you state that a flat generator is the main route, yet in my example you would never pick it. What makes it "main" if it can be completely avoided and never used?
@Paddy4582
Paddy, so in the example it is a "side-quest" that you would ALWAYS do? Doesn't really sound like side-questing. Nobody would be doing flat gens. (Might sound like side-questing but still isn't).
That is a META statement more than it is a side-quest statement. In my example you always picked the parts, thus doing flat gens is side-questing. (your logic)
I already said why:
it " does not require anything aside from the generator."
while for the part generator:
it " requires the completion of a side quest (...producing and installing parts)"
But I'm gonna be honest, I simply don't care if one route is main, side or whatever. I can agree to call everything as you wish, it really doesn't matter for the sake of the discussion, that is how your proposal is (or is not) flawed.
We already have the standard game, your idea would be an addition to the main objective which isn’t required hence making it by my definition a side quest.
what your attempting to do is suggest we pretend both ways have always coinsided as optional ways to complete the main objective, that argument is pointless because it isn’t and never will be the case, and o would still see the collecting and making of parts as a side quest, because it’s not required to compete the main objective!
What your not seeing, is to get out someone needs to do gens, but no one would need to collect parts ever, it would be purely optional.
This isn’t the case for gens, someone has to do them in order for an escape to happen!
There is no Meta argument, because it’s hypothetical and anything said can be countered by another hypothetical situation.
@Edys
Just a question; What do you mean by mandatory and what do you mean by "main objective?"
The main objective is completing this bar: 400 seconds (+20 sec gate-time x2) = 420 minimally/440 maximally.
When you do a flat gen, you are simply progressing +80 at a certain location.
When you do are creating parts and work on a gen you are also doing +80 but at different locations, but that 80+ gets awarded under a certain condition.
Both progress the main objective bar. (Which is not the same as a collective generator bar; this bar is literally everything that you require for an escape)
Now you understand the 420 main objective bar, why does sitting at a certain location longer make adding to that bar more "main" then the other? Isn't everything that adds to this 420/440 bar the main objective and everything that doesn't isn't?
Which is why sabotaging for example isn't the main objective but both a Part-gen and flat gen are
What does;
Is trying to score a goal in a football match not doing the main objective, simply because they aren't doing generators? If you told a footballer that, they would tell you that you're crazy; what is inherent about scoring goals and winning the match?
The same goes for DBD; Escaping is the goal. Nothing else is inherent to it. If you replace generators with socks, then people completing socks would still be doing the main objective, whether they do generators or not.
Sitting at a certain location for longer has no special importance on making something more "main" then something else.
The only thing that makes it main is that through SUCH THING ALONE you can complete your end-goal.
Correct. a discussion about balance is a separate topic and involves what people believe to be the desired numbers. (Or whether something is systemically flawed, like the legion).
But the claim that in a game where you can complete the bar through 2 different methods purely, to call 1 of the 2 a side-quest has very wrong implications, suggesting that something structurally makes it not part of completing the main objective and can therefore inherently not serve as an alternative experience, similar to how sabotaging and such alternatives are ignored for the sakes of them not being main objectives.
To understand that in a multi-route main objective system both routes render the other not purely mandatory, but collectively form the pool of what IS mandatory, is crucial to understand, as that explains that it is indeed the relation ship between the 2 (/3/4/etc.) that decide on whether it will be used a lot or not, and as demonstrated by the example, the relationship between the 2 can render both sides non-existent.
@Paddy4583
So you acknowledge the Part route as distinct from the vanilla route, thus you acknowledge doing flat gens being distinct from doing Part-gens.
Now you still call doing part gens optional and therefore a side-quest. Do you still not notice how doing flat gens also has become an optional "side-quest?"
META is what matters. The idea of side-questing is wrong.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape I really have no more energy to entertain this meta-discussion about what is and what is not a side objective, I think it's a waste of both our times, or at least it is of mine, sorry
.
That being said, I would appreciate your opinion on this post:
>
If installing parts take even slightly longer than doing the gens flat (if the killer is distracted) then it shouldn't be an issue, because the generator isn't going "instantly".
The idea of it going instantly is only relevant to the degree a killer can regress a generator. A distracted killer can't.
(Also, collecting parts should always last longer than doing flat gens, because if their completion time is EVEN, then doing parts is always superior as it has more benefits, through ratio's between parts could change.)
Installing a part: 5 seconds (which one can do at any time and can't be regressed)
Repairing a gen alone with 5/5 parts: 10 seconds.
3 people on the same gen: ≈ 4 seconds.
That is insta-repairing, because it doesn't matter if one needs 50 cumulative seconds to produce 5 parts (not considering multi-tasking in this, which could reduce this time to 20 seconds), the only thing that matters is that 3 people need to be near a generator for merely 4 seconds.
This is the "insta" repairing I'm referring to.
I know. But it's wrong to assume a gen with 5 parts against a part-less generator. What were the survivors doing in scenario B while the other survivors in scenario A were getting the parts? The survivors in scenario B already finished the generator, before the survivors in Scenario A got to do their "insta-gen".
What the part system simply does is, it makes the total time of completing generators longer, but it makes generators harder to defend.
If generators aren't defended and the killer is distracted, then there's no need to do the generators with parts. It simply puts you behind; otherwise if the killer keeps regressing your generators... then perhaps they should've been getting parts!
Killer not defending Gens?; Do flat gens; (Unless your team is bad; since parts are better for the late-game)
Killer defending Gens?; Do parts;
The nuance comes from how many parts you think you'll need.
The Meta would be do a gen as is, it would take more than 80seconds to make/find install 5 parts, because it involves a side quest!!
Now if we run tool boxes, speed increasing perks we’ve already obliterated the hen in half the time it’s taken to get 3 parts on a gen, so why would you bother?
Que the hypothetical situation where you would definitely do it, or change the definitions and or situation in 3,2,1
you're not understanding: if the game has an organized swf team, they need around 30 seconds to prepare a generator to be insta-repaired, without getting noticed.
It's not the same of saying "3 survivors need to sit for 30 seconds on a generator", because
A- a killer can find them and interrupt their progress
B- the progress can be regressed
In the first case instead the survivors are ninjas, and nothing can be regressed.
@Paddy4583
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sidequest
"A quest given to the player that has no direct bearing on the main story/campaign of the game."
Side Quests are additional or extra quests that a player can attempt. Side quests are not necessary to complete a game.
strange that
@Edys
Finally someone mentioned it.
Stealth! is indeed the strength of the part system.
Even though it is already possible for a coordinated SWF to finish a generator without being noticed, many are too lazy to try.
This is why Parts are not as fast as doing flat generators; because it grants that killer extra time to sniff people out.
If the killer doesn't manage to find someone, then the survivors made the right choice for the early game.
If the killer hears audio from crafting and finds someone in the basement, then that sucks, especially since you don't keep crafting progress when cancelled and now your teammates have committed themselves to a less optimal strategy if their strategy was to rush things.
There are only 3 places where such survivors could be if they weren't doing gens. You'd find them in 3 general area's and if they'd move fast then you'd see scratchmarks.
Their ability to stay hidden simultaneously comes at the cost of slower progression.
If after testing, it is believed that parts are indeed to strong during the early game, then there are 2 possible ways to change that:
1 is to change the ratio between parts
2 is to change the functionality of parts/the duration of crafting them upon survivor death.
"x upon survivor death" is a very useful way to compensate for otherwise too strong/too weak aspects of anything in this game.
@Paddy4583
Are you stating that my version of the game doesn't have ANY main objectives at all, since flat gens are also not mandatory?
Also, I doubt that you pressed the link:
A quest given to the player that has no direct bearing on the main story/campaign of the game.
It's really hard to be a side-quest yet simultaneously being the route through which you complete the game xD
Though it’s completly irrelevant
@Paddy4583
So doing a flat gen is a side-quest in my version of the game. That is what you state;
You claim that there are no main quests/objectives in my version, because you simply are blind to the effects of having multiple routes through which you can complete the main objective.
Skyrim: Side-quest: Marrying someone:
Skyrim: Main Quest: Finishing Alduin as a mage
Skyrim: Main Quest: Finishing Alduin as a warrior
See how neither playing the warrior or the mage was mandatory, yet it being you completing the main quest? (:
Playing the mage is not a side-quest. It doesn't matter whether the mage is stronger than the warrior or the other way around.