So you want a Second Objective?; An Alternative to Pressing M1!
Introduction
A lot of people have asked about 2 things:
-Second objectives
-Collecting Parts
Those 2 themes have come up from time to time and have never seemed to quiver. In this post, we will try to use those 2 ideas and see if we can make something out of it, that both implements those 2 ideas and solves other underlying issues with the game as well.
(For those who want the TL;DR, skip to the orange headline: "The New Mechanic")
What do people want?
People want second objectives to do. But what type of second objectives? After all... aren't there already many objectives?;
-Saving people
-Doing Dull Totems
-Basically everything mentioned by @Hex-Ruin in:
Link: Why do survivors want second objectives?
What people nearly universally point out about it is that they don't JUST want second objectives; they want mandatory ones; Objectives through which they can complete their objective in a more fun way than "holding m1 all game".
As for collecting parts;
Some people often complain; You want second objectives? What other things can you do then progress a bar and grab stuff? After all, if we take a recent look at the history of mechanics in events:
The Blight Event: Just another progress bar.
Moonrise: Picking something up + Searching
Together with:
Sabotaging: Progress Bar
Cleansing Dull Totems: Progress Bar
Healing yourself or others: Progress Bar
Searching for Chests: Searching
Searching for Hatch: Searching
Disarming bear traps: Progress Bar
Getting Items: Picking stuff Up.
The options seem limited: Progress Bar's, Picking stuff up and Searching. Those 3 things are the main things you can do when there is no interaction with the killer. Call it the holy trinity of Objectives in DBD.
We will use use the same ideas as the ones in the Trinity to make the 2 ideas work together and show how collecting parts might be more fun than you think; How it can make the game healthier and how it can help us create more tools for balance.
Collecting parts: A second objective
What will it achieve?
It would be dull to only use the idea of collecting parts for the sakes of a second objective. Why not use it to solve underlying issues with the game as well? With adding the second objective, we'll simultaneously try to use it as an alternative to the solution proposed in:
Link: Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem
(Which is flat compensation)
Now, before we get into it, I might add that I'm going to slightly cheat: The objective that I'm going to create will not be mandatory despite the requests...
Instead, this mechanic of collecting parts will SIMULTANEOUSLY make doing gens for 80 seconds no longer mandatory either!
Let's find out how:
The new mechanic
Parts
Survivors can now find a new special item, called "a part". Even though it's brand new, that name was already taken. Parts take 5 seconds to install on a generator. Once installed, it will be attached to it forever. Every generator can have 5 parts installed to it maximally.
Parts can be dropped, but when they are, they are destroyed.
Parts can be "crafted" at 3 special locations one of which 1 is always in the basement. (Imagine it as a crafting table/crafting set). It takes 10 seconds to craft a Part.
A player can only carry 1 Part and only 1 player can be crafting at 1 crafting table at them same time.
Both installing the part on a generator and creating a part does not save progression when cancelled.
When a part is installed on a generator, there is something visually changed about that generator (added), that notifies the killer on how many parts have been installed.
Once a part is installed it SETS the charges multiplier to:
At 0/5 Parts: 1x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+0% = 80 seconds)
At 1/5 Parts: 1.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+20% = 66.67 seconds)
At 2/5 Parts: 1.5x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+50% = 53.33 seconds)
At 3/5 Parts: 2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+100% = 40 seconds)
At 4/5 Parts: 3.2x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+220% = 25 seconds)
At 5/5 Parts: 8x Multiplier to charges and regression on that generator. (+700% = 10 seconds)
Upon installing a part, it is consumed.
Analysis
So it takes 15 seconds to both create and install a part. Once it has been installed it takes about 15 seconds off of that generator, but now there's walking time in-between, that can range from a perfect 0 seconds (highly unlikely) up to 30+ seconds for every part that you collect!
So why would you ever do this?!
Well, this is the beauty of the Part-system: Even though it will take longer in total to finish 1 particular generator, it doesn't force you to sit on that generator continuously, and your progression cannot be interrupted.
Having to sit on a generator for a long amount of time is only possible when other players leverage time to you for you to do gens. If those other players are no longer around, then you cannot do a generator, plain and simple.
This is why almost all players in a total count of 2/1 alive almost always lose. They cannot afford to sit on a generator continuously, therefore the Part-System isn't just a slower way of doing Generators; it's also one more RESISTANT to the late-game when your teammates screw up.
It allows you to plan ahead and install parts on generators that you won't yet repair. You keep a few for in the late-game and try to repair part-less generators first.
Because said generators aren't finished, it's also harder for the killer to guess on which generator you will be, since there are still more on the map then there'd otherwise be.
Part of the fun of the Part mechanic is that you have to move while installing your parts: This allows you to run into the killer as he/she is chasing someone else.
Balance
Unlike the flat generator repair-method this way of doing generators gives us a lot more tools for balance:
-Changing generator time is easier without causing problems! We can up generator time while using the part system to balance things out!
-We have the variables of the amount of time it takes to create and install parts, which can both be buffed and nerfed.
-We control where crafting spots will be.
-We control how many crafting spots there will be.
-We control the relationship between multipliers and parts.
-We control whether the crafting spot gives the killer a clue whether the survivor has recently been there.
-We can choose whether the crafting spot makes noice/how much or add other such factors that can give away a survivor's location.
-Unlike Hook-phases and bleed-out time which do not interact with each other or complement each other; the part system does have exactly the type of interplay between the 2 ways of progressing towards the exit gates we want.
Simply, unlike only having flat generator time, we have a lot more tools to balance things out than ever before;
We've addressed several crucial points:
-The idea of a killer closing the hatch and the survivor having to complete a generator for it is no longer ridiculous!
-2 Alive survivor games no longer feel like trolling yourself or waiting each others death out!
-And perhaps most relevant to the criticism of you guys!; you no longer have to hold M1 if you don't want to! (or well... at least for no longer than 10 seconds straight (;
-We made Territorial Imperative more relevant, as 1 crafting spot is always inside the basement!
-Franklins Demise becomes more relevant as Parts are destroyed upon being dropped!
End Note; Personally
I hope this post addressed the frequent desire of players to add a more exciting ways of progressing in the game! It is important to understand that generators are the core of progressing the game. In the ideology of adding second objectives, people have often suggested to add something in between: Do 5 generators > Connect Cables > Exit Gate, but those of course only prolongue the game. There's still only 1 mandatory objective you can do at 1 time.
This is why it's important to create alternatives to doing the main objective; so that you have a choice. The interplay between those 2 (or 3 or more) systems is that they work together to at least some extend, as to not make it so that a failure in path A where you got to 99% forces you to do the full 100% in path B.
I hope you like this proposal. For me personally, I find this the most satisfying solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. where as a flat efficiency compensation would be less so, as the version just discussed allows the killers to see which generators can be repaired at top speed and which ones wont, allowing for a more complex and dynamic game to form.
Let me know if there are things that I've missed.
Whether you have things to add/build on top of this idea.
What issues that you believe may arise and if so, whether you believe they can be solved through variables already available or whether you believe there to be a structural issue.
Any own/separate ideas using the same philosophy are also welcome down in the comments!
Thank you for reading!
Comments
Which defeats the point of why the devs want to add new objectives to slow games down. It will only work if they are mandatory.
@DocOctober
Alright, so imagine this:
take the numbers from the OP, they are deliberately slower than doing flat generators. (as you can see, even creating the part + installing it is 15 sec alone. This times 5 = 75. Walking will add to that.)
So imagine this is mandatory. Then we'd have slowed the game down, right?
Now, because we have 2 ways of doing the main objective, neither is mandatory. But we can now safely nerf the other route, which we'll call doing Flat-Gens.
There are multiple tools available to do that;
-Increasing Generator time: (easiest)
-Allowing killers to kick generators with instant damage (with the amount that we deem healthy)
-As Maelstrom10 suggested, making generators automatically regress at a slower rate than after being kicked.
(And probably a lot more)
All and all, we can nerf route A since we have Route B, and we can nerf route A to the extend that we want to, because it wouldn't break the game as long as either routes is still in tact, though it would prevent anyone from using it.
So when choosing which route should be stronger, then I'd still argue that at least for later parts, doing flat gens should be the better options as it doesn't have the same Pro's adding parts has, thought that'd be up for the Devs to decide.
What is crucial to know is how such balance works when having double the routes through which the main objective can be completed (or even 3, or 4 etc).
The possibilities are endless.
@DocOctober
About this part; the Devs can't simply slow the game down. This would only balance things for higher ranks and make people even more team-dependent/hatch-dependent.
DBD needs a structure through which it can function during every stage of the game. The game should both be slowed down, but also durable once people start to die off.
The structure of the Parts is deliberately designed around the problem of generator-regression and people's ability to leverage time at lower counts of survivors alive, which maelstrom10 correctly compares to: x cannot regress beyond a certain point.
Side Quests are additional or extra quests that a player can attempt. Side quests are not necessary to complete a game.
so to me it’s a side quest and you won’t change my definition.
So you'd call doing a generator for 80 second also side-questing since it's also optional and doesn't have to be done?
You can open the exit gates without having done a single flat gen. Wouldn't call doing flat gens mandatory. You've convinced me; that's side-questing (:
But not a salty as when I play survivor and people insist gens must be done to get out.. they need to be woke
@Paddy4583
Those games didn't have Parts.
Also you should say Flat Gens, not gens. Gens can also mean generators with Parts.
Thank you for taking time out of your day to acknowledge and discuss my ideas
its always great to see someone of a fellow mindset and i believe getting this discussion out there will perhaps allow the devs to see it and implement it, that being said, if they do implement it they should have old perks affect the part system (technician making part making silent, leader increasing part making speed, resilience etc, along with killer perks such as perhaps even ruin being updated, because well with the parts system, at high ranks, (12-20) ruin would probably decimate, along with the fact that it would possibly make using parts mandatory.)
What he's refering to as a "flat gen" is doing a gen how we would now, and he's refering to the new gen system as Doing generators. he's essentially just refering to the old (or rather the current system) as flat gens
But Alexa wants to know why add parts to a functional gen at all, isn’t that just decorating?
too which Siri replied “oh yes can we have glitter?”
The mechanic you are proposing has some flaws:
early game: it is absolutely mandatory for survivors to get at least 1 to 2 generators not later than a second hook. The only way to do this is by... doing generators. Now, consider your proposed timing: 10 seconds to make a part + let's say 10 seconds to reach a generator (your 5 seconds seem to me a bit too optimistic). It's 20 seconds to add to finish a generator (because "we" are assuming to not waste the part on the first gens, but keeping them for the late game). That's 25% increased time to repair a generator - smart survivors won't do that, but wait for...
middle game: assuming there are 2 gen left, this is the time where the map is most of the time becoming split, with a high risk of a tri-generators pattern for the killer in the late game. This is where killers have established their momentum, with at least one survivor hooked (almost) all the time and someone ready to be dead on hook. Now, let's imagine survivors stop doing gens, and begin production of parts, with a "best" case scenario:
If the jolly survivor is not able to produce a part for some reason, he'll probably be either on a gen (and thus the only one that the killer will hear and chase), be doing a far away gen (leaving the 3-gen pattern for the late game) or wasting time crouched somewhere. Furthermore, if it's not a swf game, there's no way to tell who is doing what: one could be going to produce a part only to find the table already occupied and either waste another 10 seconds of his time waiting, or take time to go back to some places more useful for the team.
tic-toc, tic-toc the survivor on the hook is quickly dying / the killer is finishing another chase (→ another hook), no gens have been done, and the 3-gen pattern has not yet been defused.
This leads us to the biggest issue:
late game: due to how middle game unraveled, we now either have a 3-gen pattern or still 2 gen left + only 3 survivors still alive. Now we also want to assume that one generator has at least 2 parts installed - that would make around 30 seconds for 2 people to complete a gen. That's great! But hey, killer is camping this generator, so why not go and try to make some other parts? Well, because the problem would be the same as before: there is still only 1 table away from those infamous 3 gens, and if nobody is near a generator the killer is free to go exactly there - then maybe it's better to wait somehow near the generator and see if the killer goes away? But then again, you're not doing the parts! You see where I'm getting at?
Having multiple objectives that are alternative one to the other (because +700% to repair speed means they are, let's be frank) works only in a team using communication, otherwise there won't be enough focus to either things being done. Of course a swf group won't have any problem, but for solo players... this would be hell: you either stay immersed somewhere, waiting for a possible opening, or you try to do "something" and running the risk to be the only one doing that, hence the one being found by the killer.
It's basically not different as it is now, with one big exception: the lack of alternatives to doing generators mean that there will be a higher chance of survivors trying to do them, or at the very least staying somehow near them. If one can hide away, produce a part, install it, then rinse and repeat... this won't happen.
In conclusion, a secondary objective like this would make a swf group simply op, while it would make the game too tedious and/or frustrating for solo players.
@Edys
You won't have to do 2 generators if you're doing parts. Having multiple with 5 parts is also perfectly fine.
Now: The part where you mention the total rate at which you do gens: You are correct, the variables from the OP would indeed make the Part system a slower alternative route, for the mere reason that the creating and repairing alone already takes up 15 seconds (without walking) while also just eliminating the 15 seconds, meaning it CANNOT be faster than doing a generator.
The reason I've kept it like this is that it's important that this secondary part system gives us the tools to slow down the game, yet preventing it from becoming impossible to play the late-game.
So to follow my thoughts here: Imagine that through calculating average walking time for parts, we've made getting parts and installing them JUST AS FAST as doing flat gens. Not slower not faster. This would create the issue of:
If a craft-spot is closer to a generator, they would do the parts. If there isn't one close, they would do the gen, thus increasing the rate at which survivors can do gens.
For this reason I'd want the numbers to be on the weaker side, as buffing things is less negatively perceived as nerfing things.
Also, if in the ideal world both eh Parts route and the flat generator route would be just as fast, then the Part route would always be superior, as you can interpret it as a normal generator which cannot be regressed beyond a certain point. The Part therefore should (at least at later parts) be weaker than finishing the generator, as it would otherwise completely render doing flat generators useless.
As for the 3 gen patterns: The Parts are superior at dealing with a 3 generator strategy. There is no problem here. If the killer is guarding 3 generators, survivors have all the time they need to collect parts, meaning that they can essentially "work on a generator without being there". They only need a 5 second installation and can return to a safe spot. In other words: The 3 gen-strat is less valid as people can work on generators in 6 different spots.
As for the SWF critique: As with everything that introduces more complex strategies, a more coordinated team will be able to utilise it better. Though if the Parts were implemented and the older route would be freed from stagnation, the overall time a team needs to complete all gens should be increased, while not being to hurtful to the late-game. The 10 seconds of having to wait for someone to create the part wouldn't probably the main highlight, but the fact that SWF's can communicate where they are going to put them is what would mostly be highlighted by the virtue of communication.
Of course we could prostitute a perk like Deja Vu to always reveal all generators in red and their installed parts in yellow, but that is not the ideal philosophy, since this perk would be link Bond and given to SWF for free.
There are multiple ways of addressing that though. Perhaps similar to how survivors are notified which gens have been completed, there are also ways for them to know where parts are installed.
Although I don't know why we would be 3 genned or whether the killer checks the crafting spot, there are still 2 available. The survivors would still be able to progress the game better than ever before. They also need a terrible version of a 3 gen in order to not be able to sit on it for 5/at the end 10 seconds.
Unsafe gens that typically create 3 gens are more easily to do now since you don't have to sit at that dangerous location for x amount of seconds, so the ability of you being interrupted should also be smaller.
The 3 gen will be least of the issue. The strongest point here is SWF (and in particular their knowledge on where parts are installed).
Although for experimentation's sake, I'd still keep the Part-route slow, for the reason that there is something nobody has yet brought up as an argument on why the Part-Route is so strong; which is that your location is significantly more uncertain and that alone is already a great strength.
There are multiple ways to inform survivors where the parts are installed. if you have your own suggestions, feel free to comment them (:
@Edys
Your comment just disappeared. Do you have it saved in a draft?
You’ve been over editing your posts again haven’t you lol
no, for some reason if I edit it a few times it disappears and needs to be approved by the mods.. it will reappear eventually
Good, because my quotations weren't sufficient at displaying your comment xD
The point I was making was not that solo-survivors wouldn't be able to discern if a generator had parts installed on it or not, but that they wouldn't know if it would be a smart choice to hide/make parts or do the gens. I only play solo and use Bond, and oh boy what do my eyes see :P.
So yeah, everything revolves around the last few sentences of my post (which I can't see now
): if there are two interchangeable objectives in a game, communication is of the essence, or nothing is getting done. On the contrary, when communication is available, the game becomes too survivor sided.
In fact I think you can easily see what would happen in a swf game: once a couple of gens are done, one player can distract the killer by either chasing or even doing generators, while the other 3 build parts and insta-repair every generator, like an invasion of locusts. You have to imagine something stronger than 3 brand new parts for the entirety of the game, that's really too much.
The only moment where I would see those parts as useful, and non-disruptive, is if the game is stalled. Imagine a 2v1 / 1v1 situation, game is dragging on and no gen is nearing completion. Now could be the time to make parts available (to spawn, to build... whatever) - but even this could be exploitable if the trigger is a simple timer.
You gave yourself the solution :P make the parts more effective at lower survivor counts, and after enough time has passed. therefore while not required to do initial gens (though it would obviously help and should be done to quicken gen progression) it would become far more vital for those in a perilous situation.
OR the requirement could instead be that you or someone else has to have been chased after the other two are dead in order for the parts to be made better/faster/stronger etc idrk
Workbenches shall not be lit nor shown to the killer, instead they will make sound similar to a chest. Killers can pull survivors "out" of workbenches, and once the work bench is exited it makes a notification (but not if the killers within terror radius or in a chase) Suvivors can carry up to two parts, but making a second while carrying one already will take a little longer, however being able to carry two parts will only be available when not already carrying an item. Therefore you can potentially carry two parts but sacrifice utility elsewhere. You will lose one upon being injured and another upon being downed (or you don't lose any until hooked unless the killer has Franklin's). You will always be able to carry one part and one item but never two items but might be able to carry two parts. This would combat a 3 gen strat by allowing one to stockpile parts while the killers camping a gen
In order to quickly use your parts on another gen potentially.
You could also add special utility workbenches that make "better parts" or produce a certain item (ie brand new part which can attach to a toolbox if you have one)
Survivors should have an offering to make more workbenches appear, and the killer to make them disappear. (Like chests)
Working on a part should reveal your Aura to other survivors once you've finished it. Similar to the notifcation for the killer but while the killer gets sound, survivors have to rely on a potential visual cue they might miss.
Edit : could also allow survivors to make an extra part and leave it on a workbench for another survivor to collect
Man everything you make I love, I always enjoy your posts because they're so intelligant and thought out. I really want this, I REALLY want this in the game, Territorial Imperative, like you said will get more use and could become a new Meta perk like Self-Care, not everyone runs it but it is always useful, also as a minor plus your crafting station fills up that other empty spot in the Basement where the chest doesn't spawn.
Yeah he's a big brain, myers main after all :P
To use your example of oj or coke, having multiple ways to do the same thing, in the end, the same way, does not make variety.
I wouldn't even acknowledge this as a side quest, significantly less a main quest. Unless you would argue _holding a toolbox_ is an alternative main quest, because it is technically different.
Imho, a secondary objective should be separated from gens completely. That's why I suggested it modifying exit doors, which are distinct and different. Otherwise it's just dressing up the same, boring, thing. Holding M1 on gens.
Flat gens means doing a 80 second generator. If it doesn't take 80 seconds it's not a flat gen.
It does. Take RuneScape fishing. Instead of there being 1 spell, there are multiple spells through which you can change your magic. The fact that you are training magic doesn't change that multiple spells add variety, even though you're essentially doing the same thing (training magic).
A toolbox doesn't require you to play differently. Parts do.
In the end, (nearly) all DBD's actions a survivor can do without the killer will conform to the trinity mentioned in the OP.
You either do a progress bar, whether long or near instantly as unhooking, requiring you to go to a certain position to finish it.
You either search for something.
Or you either collect things (picking up).
Your following suggestion will fall in the same trinity:
The difference between the Parts mechanic I mentioned and the example I gave that other people suggest:
"Doing 5 gens > Fixing Cables > opening the exit gates"
These type of secondary objectives aren't really secondary. You can't choose, because you'll always have to do them. There isn't a game where you can get out without doing them.
In the cable fixing example, you can't even choose the order in which you do things. In your example, you can change the order, but you can't choose whether you want to do it, because you will be forced to every game.
@Paddy4583
You mean flat gens?
If you were quoting me, then no, you weren't talking about a generator. You were talking about a flat generator specifically.
So that's not what "they" are.
If you install x amount of Parts on a generator and then start working on it, you're doing a generator, but you are not doing a flat generator.
@Paddy4583
I doubt it. You didn't actually quote me anyways. That would've proved you wrong.
You mean we can press M2?!
If you just press m2, then it won't take long before the Crows will start to circle you.
Paddy4583
Yes. An 80 second generator. Guess what the definition is of a flat generator xD
You should worry less about trying to redefine words in an attempt to win, and instead learn the definition of cohearance and try apply that
Do you know how language works?
There's a word:
There's a definition:
The word is defined by the person first uttering it.
You can find the definition the first time it is used, and others understood it. (some may even understand it without finding my definition since I use the word "Flat" similar to other uses of the word, commong in MOBA's and other.
Flat refers to unchanged; basic, unaltered.
"Flat armour", "Flat attack power" and in DBD "Flat generators".
It is everyone's definition, which is why you are the only person that doesn't understand it.
Now your saying that gens do need to be done if they added a secondary objective like cables, you can’t remain consistent, because you really aren’t as clever as you believe yourself to be.
Yoir extremly poor poor at keeping up with a pretty simple conversation, you don’t seem to be able to focus on one area you swap and change your topic in an attempt to make some sort of what I think you assume is a really clever reply, you fail at flat posting.
@Paddy4583
You are a troll, clearly.
What I said is that there is route A and Route B. You can finish the game completely through 1 route.
Route A is flat generators. (Vanilla)
Route 2 is part-generators. (OP)
A revolves around 1 button.
B revolves around repositioning yourself, searching for things, etc.
You have to finish generators (aka the objective). You don't have to finish flat generators (aka holding m1 without needing to ever move)
on give it a try
@Paddy4583
It's exactly what the conversation is about.
In the OP we introduced a new route through which the game can be completed.
You called route B a side-quest because you can finish the game entirely through route A.
Then I showed you that by the same rule, route A is also a side-quest, since you can also finish the game entirely through route B, without doing an 80 second generator (aka flat gen, aka route A, aka the vanilla way), meaning that your use of the word side-quest is really off.
The only one that doesn't understand these most basic concepts is you. xD
I promise you I follow the conversation, and it's rather amusing.
And for the love of baby cheeses stop referring to your self as some sort of collective
@Paddy4582
Inflating doing generators (Route A & B ) with doing flat generators (Route A)-counter: 1
Your idea is a side quest as we already discussed, because it doesn’t need to be done in order to complete the main objective, you then attempted to be clever and reduce the current game to a singular person not doing the objective and stilll being able to open the gates.
which we both know is a diversion because SOMEONE has to do it if people want to escape.
No. You don't know what you are talking about;
You try to paint this as a "side-quest", while not understanding that Route A as a result also became a "side-quest" as a result of the new route B, which is the basis on which you tried to delegitimise it.
It's a very bad idea trying to say that "we weren't talking about that!" in a place where everything you type has been saved 😂
We can see what we were talking about, and you don't know what you are talking about yourself!
@Paddy4583
So you call doing flat generators in my version of the game also side-questing then, since you don't have to do it, which is the basis on why they will no longer bother? 😂
You definition of a flat generator is flawed. Right now if I do a generator with a toolbox then that generator will take less than 80 seconds, if the killer kicks the generator then it will take more than 80 seconds ect ect ect
More importantly I think this suggestion misses the point of why additional required objectives are wanted.
The whole reason why it would help is because we want to slow the game down, but we don't want to increase generator times further, the solution is to give things besides generators that need to be done. However if they DON'T need to be done then either you still have to increase generator time or you haven't slowed down the game at all