Current ornyo is to weak

k3ijus

Not a sadoka main, but recently ive played her and shes overwhemly weak, like on par with trapper base kit at high mmr.

Her power itself is simple, huge cooldown with rng teleports that could apply condemn, and for loop she has demanifesting, which is cool.

Her tvs itself are so weak and are always a lose-lose situation. For starters projection is disabled for the first 30 seconds of the match, and all the tvs are randomly placed around map, their extremely weak or strong- usually no in-between. If you do decide to ever use projection, theres a 45s cooldown for every tv, and it becomed 75s per tv if a survivor disables it… Which effectively punishes you for using your power, which is so stupid. But its not the worst part of her kit.

Onto the cursed tapes something that should be CURSED is a BLESSING for any survivors with 2 braincells, if they retrieve a tape they become immune from all condemnation.And all pressure you got from it is reset until you find them.If you do find them you HAVE to chase them, which now gives NO condemn for survivors caught with a cursed tape. If a survivor ever reaches above 4 stacks of condemn they are free to actually do the objective and put a cursed tape into a tv, which depletes total condemn by 3 stacks or 42% of what the killer needs to mori them.

The only good part of her kit is demanifesting, which makes you intermediary and have no TR or red stain and no pallet stuns. its not to weak or strong and its the only good thing of her kit.

Sadoka should halve the time for teleporting to tvs to 45 to 22.5 seconds for successful teleports, to reward good plays. Cooldown for survivors turning off tvs should be 50s instead of 75.

As for cursed tape they should passive apply 1 stack of condemned every 15s not in chase, and give 2 stacks if caught with it.

Addons are pretty weak or extremely to specific but nobody has the reading comprehension to endure that long

Royval

she’s not trapper weak her mindgame potential is much better with her weird visibility and she’s a tunneling menace.

Devil_hit11

@k3ijus said:

Not a sadoka main, but recently ive played her and shes overwhemly weak, like on par with trapper base kit at high mmr.

Her power itself is simple, huge cooldown with rng teleports that could apply condemn, and for loop she has demanifesting, which is cool.

Her tvs itself are so weak and are always a lose-lose situation. For starters projection is disabled for the first 30 seconds of the match, and all the tvs are randomly placed around map, their extremely weak or strong- usually no in-between. If you do decide to ever use projection, theres a 45s cooldown for every tv, and it becomed 75s per tv if a survivor disables it… Which effectively punishes you for using your power, which is so stupid. But its not the worst part of her kit.

Onto the cursed tapes something that should be CURSED is a BLESSING for any survivors with 2 braincells, if they retrieve a tape they become immune from all condemnation.And all pressure you got from it is reset until you find them.If you do find them you HAVE to chase them, which now gives NO condemn for survivors caught with a cursed tape. If a survivor ever reaches above 4 stacks of condemn they are free to actually do the objective and put a cursed tape into a tv, which depletes total condemn by 3 stacks or 42% of what the killer needs to mori them.

The only good part of her kit is demanifesting, which makes you intermediary and have no TR or red stain and no pallet stuns. its not to weak or strong and its the only good thing of her kit.

Sadoka should halve the time for teleporting to tvs to 45 to 22.5 seconds for successful teleports, to reward good plays. Cooldown for survivors turning off tvs should be 50s instead of 75.

As for cursed tape they should passive apply 1 stack of condemned every 15s not in chase, and give 2 stacks if caught with it.

Addons are pretty weak or extremely to specific but nobody has the reading comprehension to endure that long

the current dynamic is that the mechanic is always lose/lose for one side.

If you don't interact with TV's, you win/win by spamming teleport on Sadako. Eventually, everyone get condemned, abide slowly.

If you do interact with TV's, than it is lose/lose because you lose the ability to teleport to apply condemn and survivors will erase their condemn stacks.

As result, you either win super hard if survivor new or can't use the ability at all in effective manner if the survivor is experienced.

MechWarrior3

@k3ijus said:

Not a sadoka main, but recently ive played her and shes overwhemly weak, like on par with trapper base kit at high mmr.

Her power itself is simple, huge cooldown with rng teleports that could apply condemn, and for loop she has demanifesting, which is cool.

Her tvs itself are so weak and are always a lose-lose situation. For starters projection is disabled for the first 30 seconds of the match, and all the tvs are randomly placed around map, their extremely weak or strong- usually no in-between. If you do decide to ever use projection, theres a 45s cooldown for every tv, and it becomed 75s per tv if a survivor disables it… Which effectively punishes you for using your power, which is so stupid. But its not the worst part of her kit.

Onto the cursed tapes something that should be CURSED is a BLESSING for any survivors with 2 braincells, if they retrieve a tape they become immune from all condemnation.And all pressure you got from it is reset until you find them.If you do find them you HAVE to chase them, which now gives NO condemn for survivors caught with a cursed tape. If a survivor ever reaches above 4 stacks of condemn they are free to actually do the objective and put a cursed tape into a tv, which depletes total condemn by 3 stacks or 42% of what the killer needs to mori them.

The only good part of her kit is demanifesting, which makes you intermediary and have no TR or red stain and no pallet stuns. its not to weak or strong and its the only good thing of her kit.

Sadoka should halve the time for teleporting to tvs to 45 to 22.5 seconds for successful teleports, to reward good plays. Cooldown for survivors turning off tvs should be 50s instead of 75.

As for cursed tape they should passive apply 1 stack of condemned every 15s not in chase, and give 2 stacks if caught with it.

Addons are pretty weak or extremely to specific but nobody has the reading comprehension to endure that long

Her weak points is no chase, her stealth is not good and cursed tapes mean nothing, so you have to spam. Its boring. I still love her because welll… I just do….but yeah…after a few reworks she still isnt good.

k3ijus

@Royval said:

she’s not trapper weak her mindgame potential is much better with her weird visibility and she’s a tunneling menace.

eh, trapper power can always deny vaults aswell as pallets, id argue thats better than having a glitch effect. And trappers can tunnel to.

k3ijus

@Devil_hit11 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429026/current-ornyo-is-to-weak

the current dynamic is that the mechanic is always lose/lose for one side.

If you don't interact with TV's, you win/win by spamming teleport on Sadako. Eventually, everyone get condemned, abide slowly.

If you do interact with TV's, than it is lose/lose because you lose the ability to teleport to apply condemn and survivors will erase their condemn stacks.

As result, you either win super hard if survivor new or can't use the ability at all in effective manner if the survivor is experienced.

Sorry for the false dichotomy, i was trying to reference the tradeoff between the killer and survivor but it came off more as just saying its a lose lose situation.

k3ijus

@MechWarrior3 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429026/current-ornyo-is-to-weak

Her weak points is no chase, her stealth is not good and cursed tapes mean nothing, so you have to spam. Its boring. I still love her because welll… I just do….but yeah…after a few reworks she still isnt good.

Im not chronically online i promise u replied as soon as i got on forums 😭

But my issue with spamming is its no skilled and not fun as survivor, it shouldn’t be a game mechanic to use projection as soon as a tv comes back but currently its the only viable often for condemn

MechWarrior3

@k3ijus said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813598#Comment_3813598

Im not chronically online i promise u replied as soon as i got on forums 😭

But my issue with spamming is its no skilled and not fun as survivor, it shouldn’t be a game mechanic to use projection as soon as a tv comes back but currently its the only viable often for condemn

Its not for Sadako (Me either) I do main her..P100 and I don't care for this rework.

Devil_hit11

@k3ijus said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813598#Comment_3813598

Im not chronically online i promise u replied as soon as i got on forums 😭

But my issue with spamming is its no skilled and not fun as survivor, it shouldn’t be a game mechanic to use projection as soon as a tv comes back but currently its the only viable often for condemn

spamming an ability isn't inherently bad. it is bad when it is only gameplay loop that exists for that killer to make an impact with said ability. abilities need more dimensions then 1 but for sadako. it is clearly 1 dimensional action to mori.

@MechWarrior3 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429026/current-ornyo-is-to-weak

Her weak points is no chase, her stealth is not good and cursed tapes mean nothing, so you have to spam. Its boring. I still love her because welll… I just do….but yeah…after a few reworks she still isnt good.

my thought is that i think dev expected you to not use condemn as strategy to kill but as strategy to permanent slug people to death using the blindness add-on that makes you perma blind with 4 stacks. the problem is that i only see this as viable vs 4 pure soloq players. a gimmicky slowdown power based off slugging.

MechWarrior3

@Devil_hit11 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813602#Comment_3813602

spamming an ability isn't inherently bad. it is bad when it is only gameplay loop that exists for that killer to make an impact with said ability. abilities need more dimensions then 1 but for sadako. it is clearly 1 dimensional action to mori.

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813598#Comment_3813598

my thought is that i think dev expected you to not use condemn as strategy to kill but as strategy to permanent slug people to death using the blindness add-on that makes you perma blind with 4 stacks. the problem is that i only see this as viable vs 4 pure soloq players. a gimmicky slowdown power based off slugging.

If they thought that though why introduce the lock-in condemn mechanic? 🤔

This has given me much to think about. It’s odd she has 2 blindness addons as well.

Langweilig

@k3ijus said:

Not a sadoka main, but recently ive played her and shes overwhemly weak, like on par with trapper base kit at high mmr.

Her power itself is simple, huge cooldown with rng teleports that could apply condemn, and for loop she has demanifesting, which is cool.

Her tvs itself are so weak and are always a lose-lose situation. For starters projection is disabled for the first 30 seconds of the match, and all the tvs are randomly placed around map, their extremely weak or strong- usually no in-between. If you do decide to ever use projection, theres a 45s cooldown for every tv, and it becomed 75s per tv if a survivor disables it… Which effectively punishes you for using your power, which is so stupid. But its not the worst part of her kit.

Onto the cursed tapes something that should be CURSED is a BLESSING for any survivors with 2 braincells, if they retrieve a tape they become immune from all condemnation.And all pressure you got from it is reset until you find them.If you do find them you HAVE to chase them, which now gives NO condemn for survivors caught with a cursed tape. If a survivor ever reaches above 4 stacks of condemn they are free to actually do the objective and put a cursed tape into a tv, which depletes total condemn by 3 stacks or 42% of what the killer needs to mori them.

The only good part of her kit is demanifesting, which makes you intermediary and have no TR or red stain and no pallet stuns. its not to weak or strong and its the only good thing of her kit.

Sadoka should halve the time for teleporting to tvs to 45 to 22.5 seconds for successful teleports, to reward good plays. Cooldown for survivors turning off tvs should be 50s instead of 75.

As for cursed tape they should passive apply 1 stack of condemned every 15s not in chase, and give 2 stacks if caught with it.

Addons are pretty weak or extremely to specific but nobody has the reading comprehension to endure that long

Yeah she is either oppressive af when survivors have no clue what to do and when they do, there is nothing you can do. The funny thing is you consider her stealth the best part of her kit which is pretty much telling she is in a bad spot, because the stealth itself is not good. I like to mention the addon, they were so much stronger and more interesting in the past, but they removed all the good ones and now we have what we have.

This is my idea for her if you wana read:

@Langweilig said:

My three topics are chase buffs (flicker and tp), a revert of two aspects and addons (changes/ideas).

Chase/flicker buffs:

I think her flicker is a really cool ability, but not quite useful in most cases. I‘m trying to change that.

(Is the invisibility still bugged? If yes, please fix that behavior. Thanks)

• The otherworld visible duration gets reduced to 1s or 1,2s (was1,5s)

Through that change her invisibility would happen more often and make keeping track of her more difficult. Currently this is not really the case and it is very easy to know where she is located in chase. It would allow for smother and more fluid mindgames as well and maybe encourage more players to use that part of her power more. The time you have to wait for getting invisible again often discourages me to use it.

• The lullaby range decreased to 12-18m (was 24m) and please remove the directional part of it

It is really frustrating to have a stealth power that simply does not work. Like 90% of my opponents notice the lullaby in the visual heartbeat sensor and run instantly away before I came even anywhere close to them. Then the directional part of it always tells survivors where I will come from, so that they don‘t have a chance at running into me and it makes mindgames as her really frustrating when survivors have constant wall hacks through the sound of it. That was one of the big changes you did to dredge, please do this for her too.

• In Sadakos post manifest flicker the red stain is hidden or she is undetectable for the flickering duration (new)

A small change to make her flicker a little bit better. The red stain often gives you completely away and makes using the ability rather difficult, especially when you want to focus on using the invisibility in the right moments instead of focusing on hiding the red stain.

• She flickers for 4s after crawling out of an TV (new)

This is a nice thematic change she does in the movies and it would be nice seeing it in the game. I don‘t think it will have much use, but in some cases it might help. This is more a change for the horror theme of her.

• Demanifest flicker and manifest flicker get the same values, which means she is invisible for 1,2s after manifesting like when she is in demanifested.

Mainly to merge her two addons (reikos watch and newspaper), which both do exactly the same thing and it would just be a nice little buff

• Her invisibility does not deactivate through breaking pallets and vaulting windows

When playing shack I often feel like my ability does literally nothing and like it should work for the window at least. I tried serveral times vaulting it while being invisible only to find out it does not work and I see no reason why it shouldn‘t. Other killers have a lot better abilities than this could ever be.

Teleport/chase buff:

-Please remove TV auras!!!!!! (Very important) or give me an addon for it

I know what your intentions were when you added them, but they did not solve the issue you wanted to solve of survivors not knowing where and how to find TVs (which wasn‘t hard before). Most of them who struggled still ignore and do nothing against her power, but it makes playing her a nightmare. You can never get close to anyone with the teleport like you could before you added them. They always prerun half an hour ago in the opposite direction while you crawl out of TVs, because they see you from a mile away through walls, which forces you to ALWAYS run bloody fingernails to not have a completly useless teleport. I remember in the past how good and fun it was to chase people through the TVs and what it is now! (It’s not fun anymore). Secondly it makes survivors disable most of her TVs all of the time against survivors who know what they are doing, which isn’t fun as well to have no teleport points. Last but not least it hurts the horror feeling of this character when you always know where she will come from. PLEASE BEHAVIOR THIS IS MY BIGGEST PAIN POINT WHEN PLAYING HER, PLEASE SOLVE THOSE TWO PROBLEMS IT WASN‘T ALWAYS LIKE THAT AND SHE WAS A LOT MORE FUN IN HER FIRST VERSION BECAUSE OF THAT!

• Tape insertion speed and the speed for turning off TVs is 1,5-2s (0,5s/1s)

A thing I liked doing in the past was interrupting survivors when they want to put in tapes or turn off TVs, but currently the interacting time with TVs is so low, that it is almost impossible to tp to the TVs in time. This is especially frustrating when playing aura builds and seeing them at the TVs and not being able to demanifest in time in order to get there. It’s not really about interrupting the removal of condemned for me, but this would be another use.

• TVs no longer turn off after projection (was 45s); Edit: TVs have a 30s long condemned cooldown after teleporting towards them, which still allows you to teleport there, but they don’t spread condemned while on cooldown

I don‘t see why not. Survivors can always turn off TVs for a long period of time and even without the TV auras TVs are loud and have an effect around them, so there is enough things that limit her tp already. She even has a cooldown in form of switching into the otherworld mode.

A revert of two aspects to make her more similar to her first version and some buffs to some of her issues back then

I never really liked that she got reworked since she has been my favorite killer back then. Ever since she was no longer as fun to play as she once was. All the focus was on making condemned super annoying and making her teleport trash in the process, which was my favorite part of her power. Don‘t get me wrong condemned is nice, but it should not be the only focus of her. The problem is her current mechanics of global condemned and having no downside to holding tapes forces turning off TVs non stop, which removes all teleport points near survivors. I don‘t think there is a way to have a good teleport with the current mechanics, which you (behavior) would go, so I suggest reverting those two aspects. (One way to solve it in the current version could be my second addon idea)

• Passive condemned: Every 25s of holding a tape you get 1 stack condemned

This is one of the main reasons why I will always prefer the first version. Survivors were not encouraged to grab tapes at all and I had all the TVs available most of the time even tho the cooldown was long. Chasing with her was so much more fun as the focus was not only on making her condemned well (and annoying) even tho I would say her condemned is in worse spot than it would be with 1.0 mechanics. I loved teleporting around and chasing survivor with the TVs, which is no longer possible/viable way of playing her if you want to win.

• Only one TV spreads condemned

Her condemned is only slowdown now if you don‘t play against beginners, who ignore TVs all the time. Then again making it global or all TVs, forces survivors to turn off all the TVs near them, which is extremely unfun. Lastly your own skill does not matter since she is all about the other side misplaying, you can‘t really impact much if they play right and it‘s not good giving the other side so much power over your ability. It‘s also not good Design to have an opressive ability like that, which is only oppressive against people who have no clue what‘s going on.

• Condemned gets spread in a 20-24m range (was16m)

To make it easier to spread condemned stacks, which could easily be outrunned back then, because it gets spread at the end of crawling out of the TVs animation.

• Hooking a survivor gives all other survivors 1 stack of condemned (new)

To encourage hooking over slugging and to actually chase someone instead of tp spamming. While I don‘t have a problem with slugging, especially on a killer that has no strong chase ability, both ways of playing her aren‘t really fun for the survivors. Instead of forcing everyone to play a certain way, I want to encourage playing in a more fun way instead of removing it and punishing all who play her even tho they didn‘t play that way just seems wrong to me. (This could probably even get added into the current version‘s basekit.) It would obviously also be a nice buff to condemned, which many say was too weak back then, but I think with those changes it would have been in a good spot.

Addon changes

• 🔴Iri videotape: Hitting a Survivor within 8 seconds after Manifesting turns on the last 2-3 TVs turned off (revert) - My favorite addon of all time in this game. With the live version it would need a compensation nerf, which makes that you only spread condemned only around one TV. I would also make current iri tape basekit without the negatives, which is a cool addon, but no worth being iri.
• 🟢Well water might need a new effect, because the buff to the post manifest flicker might make it irrelevant
• 🟢Ring drawing: Condemned Survivors spread their Condemnation to other Survivors, who complete a Healing action on an injured Survivor. - The old effect was a lot cooler/stronger/uniquer and the current effect should be basekit and not be on an addon, which I suggested in the reverting part. Please bring back this old/cool addon.
• 🟢Rickety pinwheel: Survivors suffer from the obvious effect and hear no lullaby (new), when within 12-16m (was 8m) of any TV. This effect lingers for 1-2seconds (new). Turning off TVs halves its range (new). - This addon got rarely used, because it doesn‘t really activate in the live version since survivors are encouraged to take tapes and in her former version it was ok, but not really useful since you are normally not walking around the map outside of her power. The range was also too small and often didn‘t even reach gens.
• 🟡Yoichis fishing net: Reduces the time it takes Survivors to acquire another stack of Condemned by -12 % when holding a tape (revert to its old effect) - The current effect does not really activate often and the older one was a lot more useful. We also do not really need 2 blindness addons (revert focused addon change)
• 🟡Sea-soaked cloth: Survivors suffer from the blindness Status effect when within 12-16m (was 8m) of any TV (was only turned on TVs). This effect lingers for 1-2s (new).Turning off TV’s halves its range (new). - The range was too small to be useful and in live TVs are always turned off, so it doesn‘t activate much. 
• 🟡Reikos watch gets a new effect and its effect becomes part of 🔘old newspaper. I never understood why there is a diffrence between demanifest flicker and manifest flicker in terms of addons and power. Old newspaper would still be +33% for manifest and demanifest flicker invisibility 
• 🟡Clumb of hair: Reduces the threshold for full Invisibility while Demanifasted by 10-14m (was 6m) and this effect lingers for 1s (new) -The 6m don‘t really matter. The addon could be really cool if it wasn‘t that weak.
• 🔘Cabin sign and 🟡well stone need both new effects since their effects are too minor or they need a big buff and cabin sign would do nothing if there is no cooldown after projection.

Addon ideas/suggestions (the colors represent the addon rarity)

• The haste from protection gets turned into hinderd and given to survivors for the duration of the speed in a 16m range of the TV. - Would be a fun meme addon. 🔘/🟡
• Sadako can tp to a turned off TV and activates it afterwards again, she does not spread condemned when doing it. - Would be strong addon for mobility (if TV auras get removed [Please]) 🟢/🟣/🔴
• Every time a generator gets completed every survivor gets a stack of condemned - Another way to spread condemned, could maybe even be basekit if she gets reverted. 🟡/🟢
• At the start of a match she crawls out of a TV next to a survivor and the TVs are not on a 30s long cooldown - This would be nice get into chase quick at the start of a match addon. 🔘/🟡

I hope my feedback was helpful and hopefully she gets changes that make her more fun to play again soon.

Thanks for reading!

What do you think , please give some constructive feedback?

Devil_hit11

@MechWarrior3 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813641#Comment_3813641

If they thought that though why introduce the lock-in condemn mechanic? 🤔

This has given me much to think about. It’s odd she has 2 blindness addons as well.

to lock-in blindness.