Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving
In most PvP games, if you don't have any teammates who need you, you can concede the match at any time and that's that. You lose, your opponent wins, end of story.
But the Killer not only won't get any points from the match but receives a matchmaking penalty for conceding? Why should the Killer have to put the survivors' fun before their own?
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I was working on Outbreak Breakout achievement and had the killer d/c when there was 1 gen left with no hooks. So the penalty is absolutely deserved.
If you considering win/loss the only reason for games existing, why don't you just play against the bots? Honest question. It ignores every other aspect of the game other than the game saying whether you won or lost, including the progression system, consumable limitations, and interaction with other players. Most people use it as a training tool but it sounds like the only thing you want out of the game, so feel free to switch over to it exclusively. You won't even get a disconnect penalty for leaving early, so it hits on all sixes for you.
Well, in the words of one of MTG's lead game designers, "Fighting against human nature is a losing battle". Bear in mind that Killers still regularly DC, despite the penalties under the current system. They have no teammates they are obligated to help, they're playing an entirely self-centered role, so there's no one who really gets screwed over if they leave.
I think you'd be better served by giving bigger quitter bonuses to survivors and keeping their addons/offerings than by adding more DC penalties.
It's not a good look for you when you have to strawman me and use the most hyperbolic examples possible to make your own position seem reasonable.
I'm interested in playing against people; I'm just not so inconsiderate as to demand that my opponent keep playing after they say "You win".
I... what? You literally just projected your own fallacies onto me when I gave you an actual honest resolution for what you have been saying. If you are interested in playing against people, you're not allowed to proverbially flip the table if you don't like how things are going. When you do that in real life, people stop wanting to play with you, which is ironically what things like disconnect penalties are stepping in to provide. You keep claiming to not be inconsiderate when advocating for being able to be inconsiderate toward others who want to play the game they queued up for.
Really? Because no one seemed to get upset when I said "I concede" at the last Magic: The Gathering tournament I went to. Nor does anyone seem to complain about it when their opponent presses the Concede button in Hearthstone or MTG Arena. They just take their win and move on, like a good sportsman should, instead of demanding that their opponent continue to helplessly squirm for another 5 minutes.
Thats wonderful, but this is a completely different game. I'm not even going to touch the sportsmanship comment.
MTG and other TCGs tournaments have time limits to play a best of 3. And just in general, 1v1 card games have rules for conceding.
DBD has no rules for conceding a match and punishes people for quitting out of a match. Plus DBD has challenges and achievements so killers quitting and forcing the match to end messes with those.
I think the core of the issue here is that you keep positioning a DC as a concede, like you're saying to your opponent in Magic or whatever "ah, you win, I concede", when it isn't.
The equivalent if you're playing a card game irl would be to stand up and walk away suddenly without a word, because that's what happens when you DC out of nowhere. Even if you were losing - especially if you were losing - you'd be seen as a bad sport and people would be rightly miffed that the game ended early.
I think the most ironic part is that there used to be more parallel scenario to actual conceding as killer in DBD, which were hatch standoffs and smacking survivors who refuse to leave at the end of the match. The EGC and being able to close the hatch were designed specifically so that such a concessions could no longer be forced, and the game would be put on a hard time limit/forced resolution if said scenarios occur. Killers can even open a gate when the gens are powered.
Thank god you don’t work for with the dev team.
So the issue is presentation, then? Well then, by all means, add a message or an effect that makes it clear the Killer forfeited. Because aesthetically, that's the only difference between pressing "Concede" in Hearthstone and pressing "Leave Match" in Dead by Daylight.
So when you come across someone that wants to hardtunnel you out instead of making it harder for them you save them the time for hooking you and in also lose whatever you have gotten so far
if you hate tunnelers don't help them at your own expense for being able to leave a couple or seconds earlier. Just alt tab if you don't want to watch
Also if a game makes you suffer from anger-induced brain aneurism you need to listen to what your brain tells you and stop playing. It's not shame to admit a game isn't for you
You'd have to go significantly further than that to make it come across as a concede and not a ragequit. You'd have to make it take longer, so it's not a jarring change from gameplay to end screen, among a few other changes too.
Even after that you'd have to ask, what is the difference between this and a ragequit? The answer being, this one takes longer. It's still ending the match early because you don't feel like playing any longer, and it still robs all four other players of gameplay. That is, no matter what way you slice it, a ragequit, and not something that should be encouraged at all.
Well, that just seems petty. I don't see why it's any of your business whether it's a concede or a ragequit. It makes no difference to you gameplay-wise. If you really wanna know that badly, check the endgame chat.
Don’t queue if you aren’t going to play it out.
A 1v1 match of rocket league, as long as you have played 1 min 30 seconds.
Lets look at this from both sides,
Survivor: A survivor can yeet themselves out of the game by suiciding on hook with essentially no penalty so they already have a way to concede the match.
The next biggest complaint on the survivor side would be slugging for the 4k with slugging for the bleedout being the second. Now I am not a fan of the finisher mori system however, I do believe a concession option could be put in place for the slugging for the 4k situation at the very least, and would technically work for both.
How would it work? Very simply actually, if only one survivor is standing downed survivors can choose to concede all players are notified, the downed survivors aura is no longer shown to the survivors and is instead shown to the killer and the bleedout timer continues as normal, this allows the game to continue until it's conclusion and as an added benefit would cut down on the 2nd last survivor selling out the final survivor to try and get hatch for themself.
As for how would this work on the killer side? At any point after 3 gens have been completed the killer can go to an exit gate to concede the match, again all survivors are notified and all remaining gens are highlighted, the survivors can then finish the match normally/complete challenges. This is essentially the same as the killer giving up and standing in the corner but eliminates the survivors drawng out the game uneccesarily.
I am going to disagree with you pretty hard on this statement, just because a game can technically still be won doesnt mean anything.
On the survivor side when you are losing, no matter how badly, you have the opportunity as the final survivor to escape. Between hatch and the door in the EGC there is decent RNG chance to still get an escape.
There is no such catch up mechanic for killers, as an example last night I was in a match against a sabo SWF on garden of pain, I'm sitting there with 1 hook 3 downs and 4 gens done playing a trapper with house gen and 2 opposite corner gens left. In this match I got screwed over by matchmaking, and put against survivors far outside my skill level.
Now you can say I still have a chance to win this game, which I would disagree with especially because half the time matchmaking doesnt work properly. If I have already came to the conclusion that I am going to lose and depip regardless of what I do for the rest of the match what are my options?
I dont dc from matches, unless i am done for the night, which I wasnt.
Playing out the match isnt really an option, as I value my sanity, and want to be able to actually keep playing.
So my only other option is to AFK to the end of the match, i the hopes it ends as quickly as possible.
So I take off my headset set up in a corner by the gate and throw a video on my phone, I was stuck in that match for 15 min with my headphones exploding, and the shine of flashlights on the wall I was facing before they even finished the last gen, then after another couple minutes I opened the gate and went back to my corner they proceeded to draw out as much of the endgame as possible, including one of them downing themself with a trap just to extend the EGC timer. In this situation there is definitely bad sportsmanship but I would argue its not on the killer side.
In my example of how conceding would work, instead of being held in a match for over 20 min, I could have conceded and moved on, and the survivors could have still finished the gens and moved on, instead of spending 20 minutes taunting my AFK husk.
Oh for Christs sake, i am half through the comments and you are still comparing either 1v1 or 4v4 games to a 1v4.😩
The only unfair aspect DBD has in the regard to giving up is that survivor can circumvent the penaltyby suicide on hook.
And yes, killer should've the option to open the exit, GIVEN CERTAIN CRITERIA like X gens done vs only Y hooks or only after 5 minutes (like league with it's no surrender before minute 15).
So, you think it's okay how it is? Like people know that they can just DC once or twice per day and have absolutely no punishment because the timer is so small and the cooldown is so fast.
It takes you longer to spend the blood you've earned than the 5 minute timer for a DC. That makes the whole system a waste of time and money and only molly coddles the players that are totally oblivious to the facts. The only players it is stopping from playing are those that have bad internet and shouldn't be playing online games anyway. Those that are using DC to be jerks or are just lazy are still fully capable of doing that.
Obviously if they went with my strict idea they would have to fix bug DCs and have an appeal process.
I generally would like a concession option. On survivor side if we're down to 2 and there are multiple gens left, yeah, I'm not really going to stress out. If there was a surrender option I'd take it automatically.
Or in games where as survivor we're facing a killer so above the team in level not only can we not complete a gen, we can barely get one started.
There are a couple of problems however.
As killer, you've never truly lost until the very, very end. Even if the survivors are running circles around you, you can still get one.
For survivors it is also partially true as there is always a chance that a survivor can get hatch to get a 'tie' on their part. DBD still holds to the idea (though I disagree with it), that the survivors are not teammates. So bailing out on a game with 2 survivors left gives that remaining survivor more of a chance.
I guess I'd also compare it to resignations in chess. It is considered polite to resign around the middle of the match if you've been significantly outplayed (to save everyone's time), but rude to do so at the end just to deny the inevitable.
I'm sorry but did you even read what you wrote, lol. You can't be for it on one side and against it for the other when the same reasons you say can be applied to both sides.
On survivor side if we're down to 2 and there are multiple gens left, yeah, I'm not really going to stress out. If there was a surrender option I'd take it automatically.As killer, you've never truly lost until the very, very end. Even if the survivors are running circles around you, you can still get one.When you take EGC into consideration these are basically the same situation. Except your okay with it for the survivor while you expect the killer to sit there and wait patiently until the survivors decide to let the match end.
Or in games where as survivor we're facing a killer so above the team in level not only can we not complete a gen, we can barely get one started.Take a look at my example above, this can easily happen to a killer as well.
There is also another situation that is exclusive to killer, because 1 bad survivor can be carried to victory by the rest of the team, but the killer is alone with nothing to help them if they losing.
If the survivors have the skill advantage the killer doesnt have the benefit of teammates bailing them out or a 50/50 mechanic at the end of the game, not to mention the psychological stress factor of hitting a breaking point where each screw up creates more screw ups until you break a controller, keyboard, moniter, mouse, hand, wall, etc. If anything having a concede option is more important as a killer, especially as many survivors like to draw things out as long as possible when a killer tries to give up.
Idk. Reading through this it really just seems like you want to DC because you’re losing the game.
Which is a part of games like this.
But also, consider this.
in 1v1 and 5v5 games, conceding takes an equal amount of People on each side to end the match. (In League, at 15 it needs to be unanimous. I can’t remember when it needs to be majority later on.)
Having played Rocket League, you conceding as one person puts the team a player down until someone else can fills that position.
Magic The Gathering with multiple people in a game, conceding doesn’t prevent other players from continuing the game even.
But on teams games, it’s balanced around the disconnect. On one v one games, typically a DC doesn’t hold other consequences to your opponent other than leaving the match early.
Survivors dying on hook and killing themselves on hook harms other survivors as much as the killer. It’s Gamethrowing.
DC’ing because you’re losing is ALSO gamethrowing.
Dead By Daylight is different because the game is designed to punish gamethrowing behaviours, and as a killer, you leaving the game because you’re losing is indeed gamethrowing.
And people who need to leave hacked games still get a DC penalty, Even being held hostage doesn’t save you from that.
If players are holding the game hostage (not completing generators and harassing you) you can report it.
But as someone else said, you agreeing to a match does mean you agreed to play it out. You agreed to DBD’s rules and regulations on matches, and breaking those gets your penalized, even if you’re not having fun.
This game isn’t about just your fun, and my recommendation is that if you can’t have fun losing, or if losing hard really ruins the game for you, find something you are actually going to enjoy, and enjoy how it is inherently designed.
Otherwise, yeah, gamethrowing is a penalizable action, and disconnecting on either side is considered throwing the game.
Just like if you hit the Disconnect button in League.
Dead By Daylight does not have A concede system. You are intended to try your best to win until the game ends. That is the design of the game.
You keep asking why you cannot concede, here’s the short of it, there is no design for conceding. It is a disconnect button, and the intended use was to get out of hostage games and hacked ones.
Otherwise, you’re agreeing to play by the Rules and Regulations of the platform/game you pick when you sign up for a match.
Dead By Daylight isn’t the only game with this penalty, plenty of ranked games also have it, and Dead By Daylight is a competitive and ranked game by design.
I hope this helps you understand why it isn’t conceding and why you can’t.
Killer DCs don’t technically count as escapes for survivors. They’re a null match like hatch (MMR doesn’t go up). I just wanted to correct that.
Well the philosophy behind it is that if you DC, you ruin the game for four other people, and it's preferable to keep four people happy than just one person. The five minute timer isn't anything drastic, though, so you can choose to take the pain of that five-minute matchmaking block if the game is just that unbearable to stay in.
Just putting in my two cents on all this. First of all of I'm losing so badly I just stop playing bc I'm not having fun anymore. It's not fun being stomped and clearly out matched by some swf group of survivors. Some may say you can learn something but you don't really learn anything if you mad and work up. So if I get that way I just stand at the gates wait for gens to be done and then up them myself. After that I usually just go to the basement and wait the 2min bc survivors always wait around till the last minute bc they want the chance to teabag you as the killer.
I do wish it was a faster way to end a match when you clearly have lost and outmatched in dbd. Just like I wish there a way a survivor could have the option to end thier life if the been slug to long.
Just stand in the corner, they will get bored. Its rare you will get a 4man hold you hostage for ages when they cant do anything and even if you do run into that massively rare situation you can afford that DC as it's the only reasonable time to DC and you wont run into that enough to get a ban penalties.
Like I said though theres still plenty you can do besides instantly giving up and going AFK in the corner, such as learning new things etc.
And yeah survivors are very entitled, BHVR and the community have kinda encouraged that but as a survivor main myself I can assure you it's not fun for me either to have people entitled and throw games instantly over stupid situations.
But fact is if there was no DC penalties for killer then loads of killers would instantly DC over silly stuff and that's just bad to have, it's not fun having DCs or people give up as either side.
No one gets free passes, it's about being a good sport and having manners and ita not like you'll get held hostage often at all
I'm sorry but did you even read what you wrote, lol.I'd like it, but I understand there are complications that would make implementing such a system very difficult.
not to mention the psychological stress factor of hitting a breaking point where each screw up creates more screw ups until you break a controller, keyboard, moniter, mouse, hand, wall, etc. If anything having a concede option is more important as a killer, especially as many survivors like to draw things out as long as possible when a killer tries to give up.Well this goes to the psychology of the game. I don't get how people find the killer roll stressful, though I know some do. I've played against plenty of survivors who have outmatched me, even the bully squads not trying to do gens, and I've never felt helpless. Even if you know you aren't going to win, there is always the chance to get one (until the very, very end).
Survivor though, frequently there is a feeling of this game is pointless, let's get to the next one.
Better idea.
Remove hook suicides, make DC penalties harsher, and we actually expect these people who're brave enough to queue up for a match to not instantly flip the table as soon as something goes wrong.
See and I disagree if you've been playing the match for lets say 5 minutes and you have 1 hook 3 downs total and 4 gens done with nothing to boost your endgame, your chances of getting one kill are extremely low.
Because even if you get a down and a hook on the 1 survivor you already hooked, very few killers are actually gonna be able to hold that hook from the 3 other survivors or be able to get a down and hook with all 4 running out and bodyblocking for each other, 90% of the time in that situation the killer is playing for nothing, and in the 10% of the time they actually get a kill, they are still gonna get a depip anyways, so why would I even play for the one kill and then get crapped on with gg ez, nice tunnel, way to camp messages, no thank you let me concede and bop out power the gates and let the survuvors get out.
At least as survivor all you have to do is hide and survive to be the last and you have at the very least a 50/50 chance at hatch, and then another 50/50 that you can get the door if hatch is closed. They actually still have a chance in a losing game. Plus survivors already have the option to yeet themselves on hook and get out anyways.
Also in terms of value a survivor escape is worth 7k BP, 2-3 bloodweb nodes, likely 2. What dies the killer get for all that crap just to get 1 kill, 2k BP, just enough to get 1 brown add on, oh yeah sign me up for that.
See and I disagree if you've been playing the match for lets say 5 minutes and you have 1 hook 3 downs total and 4 gens done with nothing to boost your endgame, your chances of getting one kill are extremely low.I've seen this quite a few times as both survivor and killer. Not just a kill, but I've seen and been the killer when the game has totally turned around at 4 gens done. As extreme as a single hook? No, but I can recall games where it happened with two only 2 hooks at that point.
Also in terms of value a survivor escape is worth 7k BP, 2-3 bloodweb nodes, likely 2. What dies the killer get for all that crap just to get 1 kill, 2k BP, just enough to get 1 brown add on, oh yeah sign me up for that.I don't know what the BP or pip math ever is. Escape or not is the only relevant part, but I understand others play the game differently. Thus that 1k feels a lot more than 0k and a sizable thing to play for.
Quitting is not conceding in DBD. That's the problem. You are not saying "I give up, you win". You are saying "Screw you, I'm leaving. And screw these other guys, too."
This is a false equivalency. DBD isn't forcing you to finish the match, it just says that if you leave the match you may not play another for some amount of time.
There's plenty of professional sports where a player who makes a habit of being a bad sport can get themselves removed from the match and possibly banned from future play. That's not "chaining them to the table" and forcing them to play the match. It's saying "if you want to continue playing matches with us, you will show basic respect for your opponent," which is similar to what DBD does. There are plenty of real-life examples where refusing to participate will have negative consequences. This doesn't mean you cannot refuse to participate, it just means you must be willing to accept those consequences.
Now, to a degree, the situation is different for the killer because if they leave the survivors just get a free win. This is not too different from, say, resigning a lost game of chess. I agree that the killer leaving should be theoretically acceptable under some circumstances. The trick is allowing it without making it easy to sandbag to drop MMR. Right now you can sandbag by AFKing the whole match, but this is bannable. So we'd have to find a line where we say "before this happens you are probably sandbagging, but after it happens you aren't" and I challenge you to come up with one that isn't either extremely abusable to drop MMR, or so long into the match that the killer may as well finish it out anyway. (If every match were officiated by a human, it could be a judgement call on the part of that official -- for example, see the intentional grounding rule in American football -- but having a human officiate every match of DBD isn't feasible.)
DCs are hugely problematic on the survivor side, though. If you walk off the field during a soccer game and refuse to participate, you will almost certainly be kicked off of your team. Since DBD matchmaking basically creates ad-hoc teams, getting kicked off of that team is inconsequential, so there needs to be some deterrent to keep you from ruining every match you are placed in, so there needs to be some system to penalize routinely abandoning your "assigned team" mid-match.
Your professional sports analogy is a non sequitur. Resigning the match is not poor sportsmanship.
I mean... other games came up with solutions for this ages ago. Conceding only drops your MMR after a set number of turns, or a set number of minutes (Depending on the game).
I agree, DCs on the survivor side are a big problem and rarely acceptable. If the survivor team wants to admit defeat and move on to the next match with no penalty, they should have to take a vote first.
For starters? Less BP, wasted time, wasted offerings and wasted items.
Didn’t the devs say DBD is technically a 1v1v1v1v1? So you are conceding when you DC/suicide
It is only that for SCORING purposes. That context was taken out of their MMR discussion.
It’s poor sportsmanship. Too many killers wouldn’t finish their matches if they were losing. That’s not an ok thing, and it’s not a healthy way of thinking. This is not “conceding,” it’s being a poor sport and a sore loser (IMO).
Maybe give the killer an option to concede via in game menu and at least “X” amount of survivors would have to accept the concession in order for it to go through? Just spitballing an idea.
To be honest, no one is really mad if the killer DCs. That's not the problem here.
Ahahaha, sorry but just the idea of the survivor having to accept a killers surrender is hilarious to me 😂.
There is already an army of jerks playing the group role, they would have a field day when the killer would even announce to them that they don't have fun and want out.
It's weird, technically it is 1v1v1v1v1 for MMR and BP purposes but the Altruism category and a ton of perks encourage you to to play like it's a 4v1 but at the same time Left Behind and Self-preservation exist. I think BHVR let's you pick how you wanna play it so both are true I guess.
AFAIK, it depends on how long the game is. If they DC at the loading screen or right after the match starts, you keep them.
If they DC a few minutes into the game, you lose them.
But don't quote me on this, I'll have to check.
You cant put the control on the survivors. when a killer goes afk and stands in a corner the survivors already dont accept the surrender very easily.
As it is when you are clearly outmatched and going to lose and give up, and go afk till the gens are done, all most of them wanna do is spam vault to make your headphone explode and even when you open the gate for them they still wanna wait out the whole timer as well. If it werent for dc's stacking up it would be better to dc than be stuck there afk for 5 to 20 minutes.
You can have a concede option, have it available when there is 1 gen or less remaining, the killer can decide to give up and leave the match by going to the exit gate, and the game can spawn a husk in the corner of the basement, and the survivors can vote on whether they wanna do last gen and finish the game out or not and anyone who wants to can stay to complete their glyph or cleanse totems or whatever without holding the kiler in the game.
Smash Ultimate has a DC penalty. Just sayin'.
If you think my analogy is a non sequitur, you should check out this other guy who compared a matchmaking ban to being chained to the table while playing cards!
Oh, wait...
Tu quoque fallacy. Not a good look when you can only defend your argument by pointing to a supposed flaw in someone else's.
I didn't defend my argument because you're not arguing in good faith. You're being hyperbolic and dismissing an analogy as a non sequitur as though it's supposed to be an exact comparison. (Hint: it's not.)
The point I was trying to make is that there are often real-world consequences for leaving in the middle of a game, and DBD isn't an exception to that, and that your "chained to the table" argument is utter nonsense.
I think there is an argument to be made that there are circumstances where this shouldn't apply to the killer, so I think we are in agreement there.
But there aren't real-world consequences to leaving in the middle of the game, and you'd be called silly for saying there should be. Few people would think to force someone to stay in a match they don't wanna play anymore, especially a non-team game. Most in-person games will let you forfeit with no questions asked, the only penalties being that it counts as a defeat.
Non-team games, sure.
If you are even playing a casual team game with a bunch of friends and you walk off because you are done playing, the consequence is that your friends are probably going to be a bit pissed at you and think twice before playing another team game with you. Nobody is preventing you from leaving, but you're going to lose some goodwill / "social capital" by doing so.
And what does that have to do with playing Killers in Dead By Daylight? There are no teammates to disappoint.
You ragequitting still screws over the survivors who wanted to play out an actual game. Also means they lose their item add-ons/offerings are basically wasted/etc.