The Twins need a Good Rework
The Twins are probably the most disappointing Killers in the game due to the Power feeling extremely clunky to this day and them just not having something generally unique or lore-accurate to them.
Now, considering there's supposed to be a rework to the Twins at some point in the future, I think that to no one's surprise, they need a good rework. They don't need stat changes to their Power like Ghost Face or a small addition like Legion. They need a straight up, ground-up rework that makes them feel like a powerful duo.
But what can be done? This is where my input lies, because there's several things to do for The Twins to make them both feel good as the Killer and the Survivor.
Will this be ignored? Likely.
But is this post necessary for the developers to read? Absolutely. This post may serve to be far more crucial to the development of a rework than anything because it will provide something that would lead to a significantly better Killer and Survivor experience.
The Twins
Power: Blood Bond
- Additional Ability: Charlotte now has a new ability known as Unleash Victor. This ability is a charge-based ability that causes Charlotte to extend her arm and allow Victor to crawl on top of it, before letting him leap forward in the attempt to grapple onto a Survivor.
- If a Survivor is struck by Victor by this ability, that Survivor will be bound by Victor until they can crush him. Additionally, Charlotte will suffer minimal cooldown and slowdown after launching Victor to allow for a tag-team attack.
- If Victor misses Survivors and instead lands, he will have a 3 second cooldown that prevents you from switching to him.
- Unleashing Victor has a 2.5 second activation time and slows Charlotte down to 3.68m/s.
- Unleashing Victor has a 1.5 second cancellation cooldown.
- Unleashing Victor has a minimum range of 8 meters and a variable maximum range based on the angle in which Victor leaps.
Swap to Charlotte or Victor
- Buff: The time to switch back to Charlotte is reduced to 2 seconds.
- Buff: When Victor is in his post-attack cooldown after hitting a Survivor while being controlled, you can switch back to Charlotte during that cooldown.
- Buff: The range in which Charlotte can release or swap to Victor near a hook is reduced to 4 meters. This also applies in the reverse.
- Nerf: The time to switch back to Charlotte when within 16 meters of a hooked Survivor is increased to 5 seconds.
- Nerf: The time to switch back to Victor when he is within 16 meters of a hooked Survivor is increased to 3 seconds.
Charlotte
- Additional Passive Ability: While Victor is currently unbound from Charlotte, the latter's movement speed is increased to 4.8m/s (120%) for the duration that Victor is inactive.
- Additional Passive Ability: If Victor is crushed by a Survivor, Charlotte will enter the Enraged State while he is currently on cooldown. In this state, her movement speed is increased to a further 6.0m/s (150%) and the Survivor that crushed Victor will become Exposed.
- The Enraged State has an audio cue within 24 meters of Charlotte if she either awakens or is mobile.
- The Enraged State causes the switch back to Charlotte to be reduced to 0.25 seconds.
- The Enraged State will deactivate once Charlotte attacks her victim or Victor returns to her.
- The Enraged State will not activate if Victor's destruction is triggered by him being in an out-of-bounds area.
Victor
- Additional Interaction: Victor now has the ability to interact with Generators, allowing him to block the Generator for up to 30 seconds, or until a Survivor forces him off and crushes him.
- Additional Interaction: Victor now has the ability to snuff Boon Totems, an action which takes 10 seconds.
- Additional Interaction: Crushing Victor will now apply Killer Instinct to the Survivor that crushed him for 5 seconds.
- Alteration to Pounce: Pounce will no longer latch onto Survivors whenever Victor hits them. Instead, it will initiate his post-hit cooldown.
- Change: Victor will not destroy himself whenever he lands on top of a pallet or window. Instead, he will now destroy himself when reaching designated out-of-bounds areas on maps.
- Change: The duration in which Victor remains inactive after being crushed is increased to 10 seconds.
- Buff: The post-hit cooldown from hitting Survivors with Pounce is reduced to 3 seconds.
- Nerf: The post-miss cooldown of Pounce is increased to 5 seconds.
Perks
Hoarder
- Whenever a Survivor attempts to unlock or rummage through a chest, or interact with an item within 32/48/64 meters of your location, they trigger a loud noise notification for 4 seconds.
- Survivors unlocking or rummaging through chests will be afflicted with the Oblivious status effect while performing these actions, and up to 10 seconds afterward.
- You start the trial with three additional chests spawned.
Oppression
- After performing the damage generator action, Oppression activates and damages 3 additional Generators. While Oppression is active, the following effects will then apply:
- Triggers a difficult skill check for Survivors currently repairing an affected Generator.
- Grants the ability for any generator damaging perk to apply on all affected Generators so long as it is done through the damage generator action.
- Oppression has a cooldown of 80/70/60 seconds and cannot activate its secondary effects while on cooldown. This does not affect the primary effect.
Coup de Grâce
- Each time a Generator is completed or a unique Survivor is hooked, Coup de Grâce grows in power and gains 1 token, up to a maximum of 5 tokens.
- For each token accumulated, the duration of your lunge attack is increased by 0.05/0.075/0.1 seconds, up to a maximum of 0.25/0.375/0.5 additional seconds.
This is going to be the basic gist of what I firmly believe needs to be done for The Twins in order to make them a more popular and appealing Killer whenever the rework occurs.
I'm not going to go through any add-on changes because I feel like that would just be overkill for the reader and I don't want to bore you for many minutes straight talking about them.
But if the developers ever want to see The Twins actually be fun and enjoyed by the players, things must dramatically change for the Killer in order to make that a reality. Statistics changes will not solve anything for this high MMR monster, or possibly, may make them worse for the other side's experience.
The only thing that can make Twins better is a large ground-up rework.
Comments
Great idea, especially the perks and extra interactions, but I feel like you missed a few core problems.
▪︎Kidnapping Victor.
▪︎Cool-downs switching between the siblings.
The latter can be addressed by making Victor apply deep wounds, and causing the survivor to complete progressively harder skill checks the longer he stays attached. Failing a skill check causes Victor to remove a portion of the deep wound meter.
Cool-downs should be 2 seconds and no movement speed penalty. BUT, when switching within 12 meters to a hook, the cooldown between switching is doubled and keep the movement speed penalty.
You cannot pin point her down to an exact position when you're on the complete other side of the loop dude... You can know that she is somewhere back there, but it is not that on point. You can somewhat estimate the position but at that distance you cannot know exactly where she is...
I really don't like that you're always putting words in my mouth... I don't want a fool proof system that always works, I just want a system where a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they reacted correctly... And a shot that does not provide that possibility at all is just not good game design in my opinion... I play both sides equally so once again what is with this assumption without any basis here?
The speed of slingers shot did not get changed at all... After he pulled up his gun you still don't know when he will shoot... You only get that much of a warning... Even today you cannot reaction dodge slingers shot at close distance... You really need to inform yourself better since your understanding of the game its mechanics and the numbers behind it is just atrociously bad...
Also trying to go over an argument just by stating that it would be the logic of a certain group of players while neglecting that most people play both roles seems like a really high IQ move... An argument does not loose its worth or gain any just because the person that said it changes... You need to still go over it and try to find flaws in the logic or mistakes in the numbers behind it... But you do you buddy... And if you don't people will mostly just ignore you when you don't provide proper counter arguments... Which works fine by me dude.
Twins don't need buffs. They are plenty strong. What they need is have less downtime and more play time. The idea with AI is not bad for this - but instead of using it so that non-controlled sibling chases, it could be used in a way that you can swap from charlotte to victor immediately after unhook and charlotte will move away on her own. There are multiple things like this that if they got implemented, twins would be a little bit stronger (that is not the point, you could nerf them slightly to keep their power level constant), but the important thing is that they will feel much better to play
Harder and harder skillchecks as base mechanics just always provides some form of new players stomping potential... So I really would not recommend that... New players have issues hitting generator skillchecks, imagine them going down because they just could not hit a skillcheck on victor... People would hate twins even more...
There should just be no switching close to a hooked survivor as it provides a tool to camp more effectively and that's a boring and unfun strategy we should work on to be removed... Victor should just dissolve when a survivor gets hooked close by just like hags traps should...
Skill checks would only appear after a certain amount of time, only when they aren't getting rid of Victor.
Hm... ok then... I guess the better players would still just keep him and deal with the skillchecks I guess... Do you want to keep the 30 or 40 second recall timer or what it is? Or only make the hard skill checks after that point?
You can't repair gens or heal with Victor on you, Victor causes Incapitation until he gets removed. So these skill checks that remove deep wound timer can't exist.
Can't that be applied somehow? Does incapacitated not allow that in the way it is coded or what do you mean? Also he meant missing a skillcheck would lower the deep wound timer/bar... just like standing and not mending
When Victor latches onto a healthy survivor, they will see a timer on the HUD. It let's them know how long they have to get rid of Victor before the skill checks begin and progressively get harder. They get 20 seconds before Victor starts to get aggressive and active skill checks, but the timer will pause when in the killer's terror radius (survivors nor the killer can see how much time they have remaining to avoid giving out free information).
It only takes three failed skill checks to down a survivor. 33% lost each fail, so it's in the survivor's best interest to get rid of him before then — otherwise it's going to be hard to manage skill checks, especially if you get found and enter a chase.
Charlotte can recall Victor once he is aggressive (20 seconds), or immediately when chasing a survivor who has Victor attacking them.
What do you mean by neither one can see the timer.. you just stated before that they had a timer in their HUD? xD I'm confused now xD
That would be a major buff to twins though... Probably putting them into mid to top A tier... Not because of the whole skillcheck thing but because of the instant recall when in chase... Chases against victor tend to end really fast as there is very little you can do about him, which makes holding him hostage the best choice, therefore forcing charlotte to rather m1 than use victor to injure... With this change you will have chases that end really fast. The whole skillcheck thing will basically never be relevant... People won't be able to leave your terror radius before you can enter chase again and recall victor and down them shortly after...
I stated a timer in the HUD so everyone would know it's a timer and not some random HUD effect.
It would depend where Victor pounced on them. They could just M1 away, or play around vaults to make Victor go around. Now, if you're in a dead zone, you're pretty much dead anyways.
this sounds reasonable. I like it
Yeah but generally speaking victors chase is pretty good with not that much counterplay... And by basically drastically shortening twins chase time you're really buffing them... You're cutting the chase almost in half I think... Imagine it this way.. Right now you either have to M1 the survivor or wait ages until you can recall victor while going after them... With this you can basically just always use victor without having to fear to have no power for quite some time... I don't know what to think of it to be honest :/ We would need to test how much time it actually cuts off... Because if it ends up making chases take 30-40 seconds till down that would be a little bit rough.
40 second downs is actually pretty rough for the killer because you're likely downing with Victor, so you have to switch back to Charlotte, then walk and pick animations, then carry to hook. That's about 60 seconds for a hook, and then the killer has to find the other survivors at a generator, so it's pretty close before generators start popping and that doesn't include finding the first survivor.
BUT... I do understand what you mean! Maybe if this is too much, reduce Victor's movement speed by 0.4m/s, but allow him to vault? I dunno, but food for thought!
Yeah I understand what you mean, I just meant that it would differ from what it is like now, and twins is by no means a bad killer as they are right now... That's why I think the power level should not be changed too much...
Don't know about the vault ability... Would not do much... You don't get windows entity blocked while chasing with victor... So even if you vault the window the survivor can just vault back... Besides that windows are one of the few things that can help against twins...
I just want a system where a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they reacted correctly
Let me repharse my position. I want a system where the a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they predict correctly their opponent play. When I play killer, I make the plays and you need figure them out. You should not know my play in advance before I make the play, that is your job to figure it out.
The knight is perfect representation of showcasing everything the killer does before hand to the survivor. No guess work required from survivor part. So don't worry, dev already took your side even though I disagree with it.
The point is that the play the killer does should include some kind of information the survivor has to work with... It does not need to be too obvious but it should be something... That's why old spirit was annoying, she did not have any tell... That's all I'm asking for...
You completely misunderstand what the correct playstyle for the knight currently is... He is basically just the Artist... put down guard at tile... Survivor will now either find another tile to hold w to or he will be confronted with "2 killers" and will get hit... The Knight is just another example of a good idea with a bad execution...
I would also prefer him to be different... Have the guards have longer patrol duration and bit more different strenghts compared to each other... I'm not entirely sure what to do with the idea that gives the survivor options besides holding w to the next tile tbh... But since he is quite new there might be some idea coming...
I don't want guessing in this game... I want proper reation to the information given played out in a skillfull way... a 50 50 at a TL wall or something like that is fine here and there but the majority of the game should be more than that.
Most killers have some form of tell... Trapper has an animation (he can cancel to try and make the survivor leave the tile preemptively), Wraith can fake his uncloak to make the survivor drop the pallet preemptively, Nurse has an indication when she is starting her blink, Huntress lifts the hatchet before throwing and so on... Most of them have some form of an animation that indicates they are using their power or at least starting to use it... Does not necessarily mean they'll go through... But old spirit and old deathslinger just did not have those things... And I think that's also somewhat sad from a killer point of view... Because when you're not really giving information to the survivor to trick him then you're not deceiving them in a skillfull way... And that's probably the most fun stuff: seeing your tricks work... But when you just stood still as old spirit and pretended to phase and the survivor had no clue and could only guess and vaulted into you and got grabbed you didn't really do anything to deserve that outcome... You did nothing but stand still... that's like the stupidest thing in any game... getting a good result despite not doing anything for it... And that's why I am glad it got changed. On a sidenote.. When you have good addons on a spirit you're not really deceiving them anyway... You move so fast it does not really matter and can just catch them regardless when you know what you're doing.. But at least the survivor gets something he can work with and potentially act accordingly... Does not mean it will work out...
Huntress lifts the hatchet before throwing
That is because your expected to wiggle against huntress and she is expected to hit survivors that are wiggling because of her bigger hatchet hitboxs at middle-to long ranges.
But old spirit and old deathslinger just did not have those things
Slinger is not expected to deal with wiggling, he is expected to do flick shots and your expected as survivor to flick dodges(last second dodges) in his original design. Spirit is obviously stealth killer in chase. gaining information defeats purpose of stealth. Different killers, Different mechanics, Different balance.
Most killers have some form of tell
that is why most killer are not strong as a result of failure to induce mindgames. Too easy to loop. too safe powers.
You can reaction dodge a huntress hatchet if she throws it from further away... So there is actually action and reaction how it should be...
Nobody did flick shots on slinger, since the sensitivity while in ads was different they all just insta shot while already aiming on the survivor with nothing they could do about it... And how do you dodge something that cannot be reacted to man...
Spirit is not a stealth killer XD Also all the stealth killers have some tell survivors can work with... Myers breathings, Ghostfaces cloak rustling, Wraith has his gnarling and Pig has the sound of her blade or the roar depending on if she stands up or uses her dash... They might not have a heartbeat but you can hear them coming if you listen... Sometimes it does not work and the noise of a generator or something like that will overshadow the noise these killers make but in general they are intended to be hear if the survivor pays attention... Old spirit had nothing like that. And I have not heard a single person call spirit a stealth killer... Stealth killers approach survivors silently and become somewhat hearable while in close range... Spirit had a heartbeat and when you phased from outside the terror radius towards a survivor they heard a non direactional phasing sound... But there was basically nothing you could do to know if she was phasing towards you and grab you any second now...
The whole concept of stealth killers in this game is that they don't have a heartbeat (or it is so little it does not really matter at that point) and need to get to the survivors unseen for an easy first attack, but don't really perform too good in chase... They are not necessarily invisible, even Wraith can be seen from a certain distance... Spirit however was completely different... She is 100% a chase killer and has always been... Her power is great antiloop and can/could be used at basically any tile in the game... So she is immensely different from any stealth killer.