REWORK : THE NURSE
- Basic movement speed : 4.6 m/s.
- Alternative movement speed : 10 m/s.
- Maximum Blink charge : 1.
- Blink attack is a special attack.
- The nurse CANNOT pass through the WALLS.
- Addon increasing distance : Removed.
- Addon reduce Cooldown : Removed.
This idea keeps the nurse playable for killers and gives hope to survivors.
Comments
Let me tell you what would happen...
Nurse would hold W through loops , wait for you to commit to a vault or some other animation, and then blink to get a free hit you can do nothing about.
She's slower than survivors for a reason.
If this is your concern :
The nurse cannot ignore the pallets.
That should fix the looping issues.
If that's still not enough for you I guess Nurse shouldn't be able to skip windows too.
But keep in mind that a killer must be playable and have access to and use their power.
You also have to think about the killers, not only the survivors, that's what I try to do in my previous Rework on the Pig :
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/351428/rework-the-pig#latest
I didn't like this suggestion at the beginning. But as you added the condition that she can no longer blink thru walls, this would be pretty balanced change. I like it.
The only bad thing is, that this would make her too similar to demogorgon.
The demo :
- has a shred.
- Can place portals.
How would my suggestions for the nurse make her look like him?
This would just create a whole new range of problems...
Because if you mean the 2nd she would be a terrible killer most of the time as you just made her into demogorgon or wesker, just weaker...
as for the 2nd part what counterplay do you expect? Yeah you ve succesfullly weakened her strenght but now she does not have counterplay, as said above she just waits for you to commit to an action just like the 10 other medium range anti loop killer, just worse because you cannot hit over objects... But now you cannot break line of sight to make her miss blinks or have her guess with direction you went... So all you do is follow the survivor and get a save hit every now and then...
also why did you nerf her blink movementspeed? Her base blink movementspeed seems fair to me...
The special attack thing is fine in general, but I would rather make it so some basic modifiers work and others not for exampel jolt and sloppy should work, but exposed not.
You even have a weaker demogorgon, demogorgons shred lets him move at 18,4 m/s, your nurse only has 10m/s... Demogorgon cannot shred through solid objects, your nurse cannot blink through solid objects. Demogorgon can cancel his shred after readying it up, Nurse cannot cancel her blink so Demogorgon has a zoning ability that your nurse has not, Demogorgon can shred through pallets depending on what your idea meant exactly your nurse might even get stopped by it...
In the End they would both be killers with a short/medium range anti loop ability that doesn't go through walls...
Also I would like to remind you that Nurses iri addon once gave you an extra blink but you couldn't blink through walls, but through windows and pallets and it was widely considered a terrible addon that nobody would run... So you might want to think about something else....
For some reason my 2nd comment seems to have disappeared after i edited a typo... so once again...
Basically you made a weaker demogorgon, has they probably have the same restrictions to their ability usage: Cannot go through solid objects over pallets or windows... But then again Demogorgon is stronger as he has a higher movementspeed in his ability, he can cancel it aber readying his shred but nurse has to go through... He has a much shorter cooldown after a missed shred, and his readied up shred can be uses to zone people out of safe areas or certain spots you do not want them to go....
Also that restriction to Nurses power kind of already existed in an iri addon that gave her a 3rd blink but was considered a terrible addon as the restrictions were overwhelming... But even then she could still blink through dropped pallets and windows... These changes would just cripple Nurse...
Yeah or you just play demo then.
First rule for a rework is to keep the spirit of character. Nurs blinks throu stuff legion runs and stabs Mayers stalk for power up.
Rework it to be better/ less oppressive but keep the spirit
You said she cannot go through walls. This implies she can still go through things if she still has LoS, similar to torn bookmark before it was buffed. With that, you could still go over pallets/windows. If you take that away then... what is the point of her power then?
@Archol123
@GrimReaperJr1232
@Starrseed
- Nurse can ignore windows and pallets.
- Its Cooldown after blinking is 4 seconds.
But that's the problem.
Is Nurse weaker? Yeah. However, she's 4.6 now. Even if she was 4.4, she'd have the same issue; she now has literally 0 counterplay. She will W-key through loops, force you to vault, blink through the pallet/window, and then you get hit with absolutely NOTHING you could have done.
So in essence, she's weaker but also less fair than she is currently.
Yeah that could work I don't know how fast 4.6 is cause I just don't know that but when it's fast enough to get m1 hits on survs so you don't rule out m1 perks for her it should work and with enough fatigue her blinks are strong but when you don't land it the surv can run could be fair would like to see that tested
I really love the aesthetic of nurse but can't play her for the love of God if matchbox where a brown/ meme addon I would probably play her pretty often
So much back and forth about the least problematic killer in the game.
This would be basically the same as legion in his power... You will just get hit.. This is terrible idea... And still she would be just a weaker version of other killers... For Example Demogorgon or Nemesis... Also 4 seconds in which she fatigues? Or no fatigue and just 4 seconds later she can blink again?
Also i generally like it that she offers a special form of counterplay: Breaking line of sight and taking unique pathing... Making her the same boring killer as many other would be terrible... There are more than enough killers that hit you over pallets, windows and so on... No need for another one...
4,6 m/s ist 115% so the base ms for most killers... 4,4m/s is hag, spirit, deathslinger, trickster and Nurse right now has 3,85 m/s or 96,25% according to the wiki...
The worst thing about the whole idea is basically you cannot even make distance against her, because she does not need her blink for mobility so she will just run after you normally and then just 1 blink hit you... Yes it makes her weaker, but then what? It would be more unfun to play against her in chase... Every killer is supposed to have an interaction with the survivor in the sense of counterplay, but what exactly do you do against nurse? pre-drop pallets while out of side? Then she ll just hit you as soon as she gets vision and you cannot leave the loop because she is 4,6 m/s now and can just follow without much of a problem xD
Like seriously what is the counterplay supposed to be? Find high walls like against slinger? Well she ll just follow you around until she sees you and will hit you then, she won't even have to guess where you went as she cannot blink through walls so the only thing you'll get out of this is more unavoidable hits you' ll get and basically no form of counterplay...
Good points indeed.
Maybe give her no lunge after blink so she has to more or less hit it like a ranged killer. She already has an audio that indicates the blink so you could run into her so she blinks past you.
Maybe give her an visual indicator like a fog cloud where she blinks to or go with her lore and make a screen overlay of a ghostly white breath indicating the direction where she blinks from your pov
Having no lunge would be quite rough for newer players especially... I mean I've played a few dozen hours of nurse and I still need my lunge to hit most blinks so not having that would be quite the struggle man, I think it is impossible to be so precise with every blink that you would not need the lunge.
But you already know in which direction she is gonna blink, she always blinks in the direction she faces and sure she can change that rather quickly with a flick, but the same goes for the distance with looking up or down... I don't think that would really help as even a fully charged blink can become shorter when you look up or down so it might even be more confusing for some people as it might obstract vision and not help much since the nurse can still change the destination of the blink immediatly.
I think it's rather fine that you can guess how long to blink is just by listening to the duration of her holding the blink and her fist being closed or not.
That would certainly maker her harder but maybe that's the price we need to pay for her not losing her identity in a full on rework like freddy
That would effectively make her completely unplayable on console who have it rough as is, especially with Nurse.
That would basically make her unplayable... That's not a price we should be willing to play ... I consider myself ok at her with with probably a few hundred games... How much frustration are people willing to take? Do you really think somebody would be willing to put several hundred hours into the game to just start getting hits? That would be way too hard... Many people don't play her already because they are not willing to put the effort into it and are too frustrated.... Mayking her skill floor even higher is not the way...
I mean i don't know how it is to play on console and I might sound stupid and offensive but when we come to a place where it's so hard to play certain killer on console we should start thinking of if we maybe cut pc and consoles from each other so they can make killer work different on console maybe we for the future game devs should think about if there game does work on consoles instead of going for the money
Probably sound rude really don't won't to be rude I just don't know what to do in these debate cause the two are so different from each other
People complained about the Nurse being able to ignore loops in general... and as soon as one person mentions something to change that other people start complaining (This is why the Nurse hasn't been changed in 5-6 years)
People also complained about Range... and ass soon as someone mentions something about changing that other people start complaining
I do understand that doing this will turn Nurse into an average Killer...
At this point IDK what I'd do anymore... do you think that BHVR does?
You make me work hard, you have no mercy... :
- 4 seconds fatigue when using teleportation.
- She can't ignore the pallets
- She can, however, ignore windows.
- When fatigue ends, his speed drops to 4.4 m/s for 5 seconds.
@Starrseed @GrimReaperJr1232
But with crossplay enabled you could go against two versions of the same killer and would not know which one your facing... Balancing every killer twice sounds like way too much effort...
It's not about changing Nurse in general, but more about the concrete changes I disagree with ...
My problem with the first idea to change her was that her power will basically loose its uniqueness as it would become something similar to other killers while completely removing the counterplay of loosing line of side, so maybe Nurse wouldn't win as many games but she would be even more unfun to go against... And since I consider the chase and what survivors can do during it the main thing of the game another boring killer with basically no counterplay would be really terrible...
The second idea with removing her lunge would just make her unplayable as you would need many hundreds of hours just to hit your blinks reliably if it is even possible... I think even Nurse players with thousands of hours still rely on the lunge... So that change would just kill her completely..
I do think there are some changes to her that would be good... For example making it impossible to used exposed on her... I however do not like that by making her blink a special attack some perks just don't work on her, and as it is basically the only way you're ever gonna hit people (by using your blinks) those perks just cannot be used on her, which is sad, because I think sloppy butcher and jolt for example are great perks without being brokenly overpowered ...
Yes I do ^^ But then again balance is a serious topic, and I really like going against nurse as well as playing her, so I don't want her to get the billy or freddy treatment...
So lets say you chase a survivor, he takes a window but is out of line of sight, so you just keep chasing normally until you see him vault it and at that point you already need to pre-charge your blink because you can only blink through the window and not adjust, also you dont have a 2nd blink to get him... so as soon as the nurse charges the blink you just don't vault it and run out of vision ... (my example is basically a jungle gym not the long wall variant but the other one...) I do not think her power would be viable anymore... unless somebody is really in the open, and even then she would be easiert to juke than now as she only has 1 blink and slower blink seed...
My problem is her power does not really shine in any situation with these changes... I would just like you to tell me where her power is really good... Because i basically cannot think of a situation... Let's compare it to demogorgon, again... He can basically hit you at any straight loop or when you attempt to vault a window, he is really good at standard jungle gyms or long straight loops, but struggles at loops with poor line of sight like the yamaoka gyms or rock loops on ormond for example that are rather round and not straight....
Out of the blue i cannot really think of a situation that nurse would excell at even at the window scenario she would probably be worse than demo but still be higher effort to learn the blink...
It would be a nightmare at long distances... imagine the following... you basically move 10m/s during blink... you take 2 seconds to reach the max distance... survivors move at 4 m/s so if you do not perfectly guess where the survivor will be after that 2 seconds and blink there beforehand you can basically not hit him, as he will move 8m while you move the 20m ...There is just so many issues in this...
But still I enjoy the debate and would love to discuss about reasonable changes, but I cannot agree with those, as they would just remove her uniqueness and make her basically an m1 killer.
Nurse is a hard Killer to get right at this point... I give up trying
Ah, so nurse simply can't do things . Fascinating.
I hate nurse as much as the next person but this ain't it.
I'm suggesting something to you, rather than opposing every suggestion I make.
Bring your versions of the nurse.
Think, as I did, what it might be, and talk about it.
I had the courage to post ideas, you can do the same.
Do not count on me to do everything for you, you have put me in a state of exhaustion.
That's all you really know how to do.
She's right, right now. 😀
I mean I kind of already did that so some extent... I said I'm fine if exposed perks don't work on nurses blinks anymore, but then some other perks for example jolt and sloppy butcher would be great if they still worked... I think they are still less annoying than what people would bring if they did not work on nurse.
I think it is fine that nurse is as strong as she as and her power works as it does, I think unless you're playing against a really really good nurse you can loop her by breaking line of sight and taking unique pathing, that is much more than you can do against other killers... The key to playing against nurse is also getting space between yourself and her but you don't do it by simply holding the w key like against Artist or other killers, so i genuinly enjoy playing against her most of the time. I would prefer if more killers offered some sort of unique counterplay that to some degree does not involve the usual stuff as pallets and windows.
We could also rework some of her addons, but since I usually play her without addons I cannot really say much except for maybe make her brown addon that shows the blink destination into an ingame option instead of an addon and change some of those that have barely any impact , I think there was one that makes survivors breath louder after getting hit and another one that basically gives you nurses calling for 60 on one person only I think? So I guess those and some other ones could be changed as most people only run recharge, fatigue or range addons anyway... Tuning down range addons or deleting them would also be fine, like I said I basically play addonless most of the time, so I think that would be alright.
I really don't want to change much about her basekit as it is oftentimes hard enough to just catch up to survivors holding w. If you play addonless and use 1 blink for cathing up you really don't gain that much distance on the survivor.
To bring in some numbers... fatigue on 1 blink takes 2 seconds in which you're slowed down to below 1 m/s , survivors move at 4 m/s and you take 1,5 seconds to blink the max distance of 20 m. So during the time your blink takes survivors gain 6m and during your fatigue they gain an additional 6 m so when you just try to catch up you gain 8m on the survivors... When you run in a straight line.
Let's compare this to a normal m1 killer... He gains 60cm per second on the survivor constantly. When we calculate the charge time for the blink which is 2 seconds at which she moves at basically 3 m/s (rounded) the survivor gains another 2 m so we're only at 6 m now and have recharge time of like 2 secons in which she nurse looses a little bit of distance, but we're gonna neglect that... So for the m1 killer to catch up 6 m on a survivor it takes 10 secons...
Nurse needs to charge her blink 2 seconds, blink 2 seconds and then fatigue 2 seconds... and another 3 seconds to recharge before she can start blinking again
I might have messed up the calculation at some point, so please tell me if I did... But if I am correct she takes 9 seconds for the whole process before she can start trying to reach the survivor again, that is rounded so it is probably even equal to the speed of a normal m1 killer and if not it is basically 1 seconds difference at most so like 10%.
To sum it up when you're going in a straight line she really does not have that much mobility without addons in comparison to a basic m1 killer...
Yeah of course that would only work if you don't have crossplay
I will respond to you with my previous message : You are an exhausting person.
Sure is. Maybe she needs some buffs as well? What about making her also 4.6 killer? /s
She is the most NOT fine killer in the game. I mean. She is ok for people that did not put at least 100hrs into learning her, but she is way too OP otherwise
Yes indeed good sir ^^ And I do not get tired to have long discussions :D And I kind of also offered some changes to her, that at least adress the exposed perks on her ^^
I mean at least she has something you can do about her unless she has been mastered, I don't think with 100 hrs you would be good enough to never get juked...
I have over 2000 hours in this game and only twice in this time have I ever thought that the nurse I went against could not be juked. Good nurses are really not that many... Yeah sometimes you get a map without high objects to break line of sight, but that's just the opposite of getting an indoor map...For every Blood lodge were you can't break line of sight at all there is also Lerys and other indoor maps where it is really easy to loose her.
Sure you are right. I also think current nurse is perfect the way she is. Just not in pvp game. Good nurse takes away what you can do to win and makes it exclusively how much did she screw up against these survivors (survs can only make it somewhat harder for nurse). This is something cool in pve type of games. In pvp both sides should be able to play the game
Not gonna lie the changes you suggest make Nurse sound so boring, but if you want to kill her pick rate and kill rate good work because these changes would definitely do the job lol.
I agree to some degree with that, but then again if both sides don't make mistakes who should win? We can get a draw in the match itself with 2 kills possibly, but there is no draw in the chase, which is as I pointed out before the main thing in this game, after 2000 hours I really don't care about winning or loosing, it is all about the chase interaction.
I would even go a step further and say the game wants the killer to win, that is why bloodlust exists, at some point the survivor is supposed to get hit and supposed to go down... I don't think you only win the chase when you didn't go down or run the killer for several gens, I think you win when the killer has to give up chasing you when he recognizes that he is throwing the whole game to get you and even then might not get you at all, and unless you're playing against somebody who has mastered the killer you definitely can delay the chase for so long that it is just not worth it to continue chasing you.
But at this point is it not basically the same with all the high tier killers? Blight and Spirit and so on? If somebody has really mastered the killer you will go down against those guys... And I think this is fair to be honest... I'm just gonna assume you're not a tournament player just like 99% of the players in this game we're average or above average or whatever, would it be fair if a team of average survivors was able to beat a killerplayer that has basically mastered the killer? Shouldn't all the effort be rewarded?
If we have a Nurse with 2000 hours of Nurse I think this guy should basically win almost every match to the point where he will probably play other killers as playing Nurse isn't really fun because the outcome is clear from the beginning. And even this guy will struggle against the 4 man comp swat, which again is fair, the killer has mastered Nurse and those guys have mastered everything there is to know about playing survivor. It will be a struggle on both sides, probably the most fair thing to match up players that are both "the best" in some sense.
To sum this up: Yes, Nurse is gonna get you eventually, but so is basically every killer, the game is build around the idea that the killer is supposed to get the survivors and bloodlust makes it fairly obvious that you're supposed to get the hit after some time. But as long as the Nurseplayer has not mastered Nurse, which most players have not, you are able to loop her. And I do not think it is fair to say that the average player should be able to consistently win against someone who has put that much effort into a killer that he has mastered playing the killer. And when we look against the best players playing in tournaments those guys can win for sure, Nurse is not guaranteed to win the match. And when we look at the recently released stats we can easily see that not every Nurse is good at her, many of them are just learning and will get destroyed by bad or even average survivors.
(Yes I agree those stats have been overused in some sense, but if it was really so that even bad Nurses would have an easy time stomping survivors her killrate would be higher, my guess is just some people underestimate the effort you have to put into nurse to get a decent result (yes I know she is not as hard as Billy or Blight to master, but for a beginner she is just frustrating, because you cannot just play like a normal m1 killer if you constantly mess up your power) and many people just don't go that far or don't play her often enough to the point where those guys will pull down her winrate... And even in the top 5% of mmr where all those starters are not supposed to be but all those streamers with thousands of hours that will push her killrate up, and still she is only at 61% in the top ten, so i would definitely still say: Most nurses can be looped because not many have mastered her.)
I am not talking about not going down ever. I am talking about being able to delay the chase. About being able to mind game. Nurse is the killer that after mastering her, you don't go 50/50 any more. Survivors no longer play into looping obstacles. They only choose where/how to go down - to maximize carry time and minimize interuption time for other survivors so that they can fix generator while other people just ARE going down.
I mean - you CAN loop even best blight while there are pallets on the map. Even with hug tech there ARE things you can do. There are 50/50's you can win. This does not really work against nurse. Or to be more precise - this works for nurse until she gets close enough - then you can't 50/50, because she will be able to get that hit every time.
And about the mistakes - I am talking about nurse not needing to do something clever. She just needs to not mechanically do the bad thing. What I mean is, that nurse just needs to find a survivor and down him. She does not need to care about anything else. No gen defense, no securing 3gen, no survivor tracking (with exception to finding them ASAP), no need to think if slugging is desired. You just go for survivor in front of you and if you make no mechanical mistakes you will win.
About mastery - well this is EXACTLY what I want. I want the game to be determined by mastery. Across all skill brackets. I mean killer is very easy to pick up in contrast to survivor so every beginner killer will slaughter beginner survivor 100% of the time (with exception to paradoxically nurse which HAS TO use the power and this killer will actually struggle). On the other hand if you have 4man tournament players - then killers like clown are basically unplayable, because he will loose 100% of games. This is not OK. But sure. Considering avarage to above avarage player base - at least this part (vast majority of all players) should get somehow balanced matches. But that ain't so, because camp&tunnel is still too strong and it's too difficult to counter it and yet so easy to do. On the other hand genrush needs mechanical perfection with hyperfocus to be OP strong - so it's again reserved only for best players that quite frankly were winning more then loosing anyway - making it additional game-breaking stuff.
I think even then there are some structures where nurse will struggle for example on 2/3 of the buldings on badham, but yeah she will eventually get you without much you can do.
But then again the same goes for other killers like Deathslinger at some distance he will hit you unless he messes up, if you get the right structures there is much more you can do against him then against a god nurse, I also agree on that.
And if we consider addonless Blight and addonless Nurse on some maps I would even say Blight has it easier, since Nurse mobility without addons really is not that much better than that of a normal 4,6 m/s killer, Blight will have the better cards in reaching the other survivors faster and I would say besides some godpallets that you have to kick he can still play around most tiles with pallets even after they are dropped.
And I completely disagree with the gen defense part, on larger maps when survivors split up and Nurse does not control some gens she will most definetely lose. Especially when it comes to tournaments those guys still go for a 3gen strat basically all the time as far as I know... Somebody even said that generally speaking tournament players will protect their 3 gen with 5 gens left... The Nurse still needs to play the macro game...
About the last segment... I understand that you want every killer to be viable, but then again when a killer like clown really does not take much to master him, why should he be able to keep up with the best survivors in the game? Most killers that are on the lower end just don't require that much mechanical skill to master them, besides the basic m1 killer knowledge, I don't think you can ever make it possible for a basic m1 killer to perform even similiar than those with good antiloop.
Considering that there are 1v1 tournaments where the player who loops the killer for the longest time just wins, I've seen one where a guy looped the hillbilly for like 8 minutes or something, and by all means that billy was not bad... It's just that the tiles and how to play them vs m1 killers have been figured out in a manner where there is really not much to can do to shorten the chase when the other guy knows what he is doing... And I'm honestly fine with easy to master killers having a limit to how good they can perform, I really would not want a legion for example to be as good as huntress or so...I want there to be a certain prize for people who put in the effort and the hours to master a complex killer... Probably half the killers in this game are quite easy to pick up and easy to master without much nuance to it... So let's for example say you take 50-100 hours to know everything there is to know about legion, which is to be honest rather high, I think you can know everything about the killer in 10-20 hours, because there is really not that much... But then compare it to Billy for example who will probably take you like 1000 hours at least to be able to curve most tiles and consitantly play around that. I think there should be a difference in how good they perform because of how much you needed to get good at him...
What I always like to say about that is basically a easy to play killer takes effort to perform good in a match whereas a more complex killer takes effort beforehand in learning him. (Just as a sidenote, I think billy is underperforming for how hard to play he is, but that again is a whole other topic...)
I don't think there is something like genrush, gens are just the objective and when the killer can't pressure the survivors into constantly unhooking and being in chase then 3 people will sit on gens, because what else are they supposed to do? Hyperfokus however especially with stakeout can give great value to even mediocre players... especially when combining it with a toolbox for more skillchecks...
I totally agree on the camping and tunneling stuff, it should be basically impossible to make this work in effective way... Maybe teleport hooked survivors when the killer is too close? Or make the hook timer slow down when the killer is less than 16 m away but then drastically... But that would be a whole different topic where we could come up with ideas....
Against god deathslinger you can't prevent injure. But after being injured, you can predrop in some loops and be safe enough to actually loop until he decides to destroy the pallet (and it's up to you to identify those - because insane deathslingers can hit you at loops that should have been safe). So no. Deathslinger is super hard to master (all the miniscule holes and possible hits), but he is still loopable and there are still things you can do (just not always, because a lot of loops are actually no loops at all for best slingers).
As for blight - there are no addons that make him impossible to do anything against. Even alchemist ring does not guarantee you anything if you can't get any hits.
For all killers topic - I don't necessarily want ALL killers to be viable. But I want higher selections of hard-to-master killers that can express their skill and yet always leave out something for survivors to do. Very good example is wesker. Against your average wesker shack is god-tier loop that might not be worth the chase. Against god-tier wesker, you can catch the survivor on it no matter what they do. But there are still loops you can use. No matter what kind of wesker it is, rocks with pallet will always provide you with ability to loop him for at least some time until the pallet gets broken. So there are things you can do. I don't really see this with god tier nurse. Maybe if you have (veeery long) flashlight there could be an argument even if it's super hard to actually burn nurse (or rather force fatigue) mid-chase.
About 1v1 tournament. I am pretty sure you talk about steve1v1. It's 1 person. The second best was several minutes worse. If it's exactly 1 player that can do that, then we should probably not count him in these discussions. For same reason I am not really mentioning supaalf.
About Billi - agreed. Considering how hard he is, he lacks the rewards. He at least had some funny exploits to him (being able to "fly" on a map and get ON the loops) which rewarded insane time needed to make him good, but this was also taken away from him. I agree that it is time to return some skill ceiling to him (but as a side note - he is still very viable against beginners. Because on low-level play, he is not really that hard to "master").
So to sum up - for survivors I want nerfed camp & tunnel + nerf nurse (maybe blight addons - leave wesker be as he is almost perfect - with maybe an exception to how easy it is to tunnel with him). For killers - create some generic stuff that is hard to use and can get you punished, but can reward you when you know how to use it. I really think that best killers can have it too hard against "military trained SWF" (except nurse). But this requires "military training" on survivor side. If it was possible for "military trained killers" to actually compete with these teams without reliance (on now nerfed loosing tactics) of camp & tunnel, but there was still things these survivors could do (just both sides would face hard risks in doing them), the game would be in much better state. The only unfortunate thing is, that I have no idea what such a killer buff would be.
I just think about Blight it not like you can do nothing but more like ping pong, whatever you do he can do something about it, so there is still skill involved and what you can do might work, but mostly when the Blight cannot react in time. He can get a hit on most generic tiles.
For the hard to master killers I think there already are quite a lot of them, obviously not all the same hardness of mastery but Pyramid Head, Huntress, Nurse, Billy, Blight, Wesker (maybe), Deathslinger, Artist (if you try hitting crossmap birds otherwhise she is pretty easy).
I don't know about the shack thing for wesker since he is quite similiar to demogorgon in hise power usage I think even the average wesker should be guranteed a hit at shack, unless it has a generator inside. Yeah he cannot really use his powers at rock loops, which is fine I think.
The difference to nurse is Wesker can just M1 you at a tile where he cannot use his power, Nurse must be able to use her power at every tile in the game as it is the only way for her to get hits otherwise you would to just abandon chase as soon as somebody reaches a certain structure (which you might to anyway because it can be to time consuming to chase there (main building in saloon for example).
I cannot imagine that there is only one person that is that good... Even he is the best, which I don't know I would think there are still many players that are good enough in chase so M1 killers won't a down in a reasonable amount of time. It does not have to be 8 minutes for the survivors to win the game, if the other three teammates stay on gens for the entire 4-5 minutes is enough for a 5 gen run... I think it is highly unlikely that there is only 1 really good survivor for the same reason as I think there is not only one unbelievably good killer xy, I think there are some god nurse, god blights and whatever but there are not that many of them to frequently encounter them in matchmaking.
Billys skill ceiling is basically the same, it is about the outcome, but I think that's what you meant anyway. The skill ceiling is only the amount of sill required to master him I think, and that portion is really high about him, but what you get for mastering him is really limited.
Yeah sure, camping and tunneling should get nerfed, I think we can nerf some addons of nurse and blight, but their basekits are mostly fine (except the exposed on nurse).
I'm not sure about the generic stuff, I mean basically m1 killer gameplay is already that kind of thing so the question is how long would it take people to figure out how this new generic things work and then you're just in a circle where you need to come up with a new gameplay mechanic every time to keep some killers viable :/
In the military trained comparison i would not make an exception for nurse as she can still loose in that tournament setting, but when we take away camping in tunneling in that setting we would need to come up with a buff for nurse... Let's say our target is not tunneling and camping but 2 hooking everybody before somebody dies... In a comp setting there would need to be some delay in the flow of the game to make up for it even on nurse, and I have absolutely no idea how to manage that... Longer gen duration? More gens? All seems terrible so... Clueless on that one...
The all around problem is for which group of players are we balancing stuff? Obviously not for comp players, as nurse seems to be fine on that end... If we go for the mediocre players like most people (you and I and probably 60-80% of people) we would still run into problems with better guys... Maps being too safe or unsafe for them, the same for worse players or beginners :/
But to go back to the nurse topic... Do you think Nurse needs more change than nerfing her addons and making it impossible to one shot people with blinks? Because since we're probably not balancing for the god nurses in our mid range setting she can be looped, so that should be all there is to it? Without the exposed which shortens change drastically it should be fairly possible to win against her.
For the nurse topic - yes I think her base kit is not OK. I think it was barely OK before 5.5 patch. But right now she can kill you before you can see her (desynch allows her to hit you before you can possibly see her. Before patch 5.5 there was small delay before you could hit. Right now she can hit just before she finishes her blink (or at least lock her target before she finishes). Another point is, that they changed how stun works. Before this rework, if you were lucky enough - you would be able to stun nurse with pallet. The result of it was full stun duration + fatigue time - which was punishing enough that she lost quite a distance. Right now stun duration and fatigue time and recharge run at the same time. It means that stunning nurse gives you less distance then nurse missing M1 - so if you stun, you will go down in next blink. That is just wrong.
About balance - ideally you balance for every skill group separately. Meaning you buff/nerf easy to do stuff for low MMR and you buff/nerf hard to do (but more rewarding) things for more skilled players. If this is not possible, you balance for above avarage player base as a compromise between rewarding skillful stuff and targeting most of the player base. But you still have to keep in mind that if you make the game too bad for beginners, you will slowly loose your player base, because you will not keep beginners long enough for them to actually become good. So you never want to have too hard game for basically any skill group.
Wesker is better at shack then demo. He can hit you the same if you vault and if you don't (he just needs to have both charges and need to be good). Demo has to make it before survivor vaults...
For Steve1v1 topic - I don't really know him. There is Otz's video that exactly showed this tournament. And I think the difference between best and steve was like 3 minutes of chase. I mean. 3 minutes can be enough to pop at least 4 gens. And that's only difference. That guy is on different level then anyone else.
For the first part... As far as I know you just used to need to have better timing and they made this fast hit easier to not make people struggle as much. I would not mind the pallet stun thing being added again, but then again weapon wipe animations and so on also get canceled by the pallet stun... and you should honestly never try to use pallets against a nurse, but yeah like I said, I' m fine with making stuns + fatigue a thing again, even though I don't believe it will change much.
I mean her hitting you before you can see her would only apply if she blinks on top of you without line of sight...Because otherwise you can try to get to a different place during the time it takes for her to blink. Otherwise aura reading I guess? And with aura reading you either can keep the aura reading perks in mind and react to it once you've made sure she has it or do what people usually do and pre run.
I don't think you can balance this game for different skill levels of players all at the same time without contradicting yourself when it comes to different groups... So i guess the middle ground has to be fine, as we got nothing else ^^
The part about demo is not true, you can absolutely hit people in the vault animation, Demogorgon is basically my most played killer and i usually just wait for them to start the vault animation and then just shred at the window, Demogorgon moves so fast during the shred it will still hit, only if you waited too long it will miss but most of the time it hits. The gen in shack also makes demo struggle a bit more but i think it is mostly possible to still hit the shred, you just need to be a bit more precise. But when you vault from the outside in he struggles, so yes in the end wesker is still better at that point.
My point is more like that at a certain degree of skill it does not matter anymore, because the game is over anyway... When you have a well coordinated group of survivors the gens will be done in 4-6 minutes if 3 of them are constantly on gens (depending on how big the map and the distance between gens is...)... So I don't really think it matters if you loop the killer for 5 or 8 minutes, the game is over anyway as soon as you've reached that point... I mean sure it is still more impressive the longer you loop the killer on a limited amount of ressources, but when we're outside of the 1v1 setting again everything above the time it takes the team to finish all gens is just luxury, that's what I meant.
I just read the 5.5.0 patchnotes and that thing you mentioned is not even in it... The removal of fatigue after pallet stun is but not the quality of life thing where you don't need to press the attack button perfectly to hit right after the blink... But a lot of other bugs considering her...
Like I said before if this is the same thing we're both meaning then it was already possible before to hit immediatly after the blink, it was just waaaaaaay harder to do so...
I doubt it was possible. After 5.5 I hit a survivor with my back. I never saw him. I just used M1 after second blinking at his direction. This was from my (killer's) POW. This never happened before 5.5. I mean sure. Nurse was always broken. But not THAT much. I now refuse to play her when not having daily. It's just too much.
Also hit right after blink - if my memory serves, there was always like 0.1s delay. Maybe even longer. It's no longer there now. The delay made a huge difference. Especially in chases. Also why buff hands down best killer in the game? Makes very little sense to me. I mean. I would understand if they lowered skill floor and also lowered skill ceiling. But just buffs? I don't get that
I am not entirely sure, but I think Hens once mentioned that change, but like I said, not entirely sure...
I think they did just so it would be easier for newer players, which I think is kind of a nice change, you don't need to be frameperfect with your click to hit at the earliest possible moment... Many quality of life changes will also buff a something, but I still think it is a good idea.