Facecamping and Tunneling are not legitimate ways to play and is Toxic to the game.
So I want to start this post out by saying that killing the players is certainly a very important objective to the killer, but at a certain point when the game does not discourage, and in fact ENCOURAGES it, Facecamping and Tunneling, the Devs are essentially saying that not playing the game is a legitimate way of playing the game. I also want to say that I'm a killer main and honestly, I think I dislike playing survivor BECAUSE of the relatively high prospect of facing a facecamper/tunneler.
Now let me get one thing straight, Tunneling and Camping, sometimes even Facecamping, shouldn't be completely stopped as sometimes it is the only objective the killer has that is really productive. Like when the Gen count is low/the exit gates are powered, in which case you can't really blame a killer for camping at this point. However, facecamping and tunneling at the start of a game usually means that one survivor will not get to play the game, and another will likely soon follow. What's worse is that if a team isn't fully coordinated in attempting to assist the camped survivor (which is VERY likely in solo queue), then the Survivors are very unlikely to even escape.
There are several excuses I've heard about combatting this, but honestly I feel like the majority of them are elitist:
- Get Good? I mean sure, but you don't get good right off the bat and when you're trying to get good and a killer who is just average can just facecamp you and get more than triple the BP you do, it kinda makes you not want to play anymore are you also saying that Solo Queue SHOULD expose you to this toxic behavior? If so, then why not just remove solo queue or add VC for Survivors in-game?
- Use anti camping/tunneling perks? Ok, well this assumes that someone has the characters and has them prestiged to actually use perks like Reassurance/Decisive Strike, but that means you're down one perk and the base game is still saying it's ok to just facecamp and tunnel.
- How can you not just pop all 5 gens while 1 person is being camped? I mean i guess from a competition point of view this is a good argument, but I want to point out that 1 person just doesn't get to play the game and that the survivors overall get less blood points as they'll only be receiving Survival and Objective points since chases won't really be a thing and if you get any in boldness, that means you're near the hook that is being camped which probably means you're not doing a gen.
- Well the killer isn't getting enough pips to Stage Up so no problem! Yes, but the Survivors are probably losing Pips for their stages and being new at the game shouldn't mean your progress to Survivor grades should be hindered just on the whim of some random person who decides they don't want the Survivors to have fun.
Here are the changes I propose to combat this relatively big problem:
- Kindred should be baseline and all Survivors should be able to make use of it without requiring a Perk Slot.
- Unhooking should not have a timer, once unhooking a survivor is forced to complete the unhook. Additionally, Survivors cannot be grabbed from an unhook, but can still be interrupted specifically if they are Injured or Deeply Wounded and take a hit (no I do not mean put into the Dying state)
- If a Survivor is hooked, then the aura of the furthest Survivor that has not been hooked at all, is revealed to the killer for 10 seconds.
- If a Survivor dies on hook before any other combination of survivors have a total of 2 hooks (this means it can be another Survivor with 2 hooks as well), then all Survivors gain a 150% Blood Point bonus for the match and the killer takes a 75% Blood Point penalty for the match. Additionally, no matter how the Survivors do, they cannot lose any pips for Stages this match and the Survivor will automatically lose a pip for Killer stages this match. This does not apply if the Survivor on hook attempts to unhook themselves more than Once and/or doesn't succeed at least 3 skill checks during Struggle phase. This effect also does not apply if there are 2 or less Gens required to be completed to power doors, if doors are powered, or if doors are open.
- Each time a killer hooks a Survivor, if the Survivor has the least number of hooks or is tied for the least number of hooks amongst all Survivors, the killer gains a +25% stacking bonus to Blood Points. This bonus should also affect the killer's points towards gaining Killer Stages as this type of behavior should be rewarded.
- If a killer remains within 15 feet of a specific Hooked Survivor (timer resets if the survivor is unhooked then hooked again and each hooked Survivor should have their own timer) for a total of 30 seconds, the killer gains a stacking -25% Blood Point penalty and the hooked survivor gains a stacking +25% Blood Point bonus. Survivors that gain this bonus should then be immune to losing a Survivor Stage pip for the match. A killer that takes this penalty 3 or more times in a match should automatically lose a Killer Stage pip for the match. If the killer is in chase for at least 5 seconds, this timer ceases to count down for all hooked survivors until the chase ends and the time continues to be paused for 5 seconds after the chase ends, though if the chase resumes or a new chase is started during this 5 second interval, the timer continues to be paused. This effect also does not apply if there are 2 or less Gens required to be completed to power doors, if doors are powered, or if doors are open.
Personally I believe that these are all very fair changes as the majority of them do not change the game too much. The aura reading simply makes it so newer players and players not on comms just have a bit of that edge and encourages healthy behavior from survivors (making it easier to unhook and know when to unhook). On the killer side, it assists with specifically not tunneling, but not much else and has no effect once each survivor has been hooked at least once. The majority of my suggestions are mainly aimed at Bloodpoint gain and Stages because honestly that is the most rewarding part of the game when doing well and honestly I just hate the fact that a killer who does minimal work by facecamping can double or triple the number of blood points of survivors who actually play the game well and even escape.
Comments
I feel the same way about you bud 👍️
We're just not going to see eye to eye, that's fine.
And all of these are valid points. I'm assuming you're in the 3k/4k as a win killer, 2k is a draw, and 1k is a loss? And my suggestions don't really impede on this if you REALLY want to play this way and prioritize "winning".
Personally, I play for fun and for Blood Points. The Blood Points are just to complete my roster of perks so I can try more weird and interesting combinations to have more fun.
In the end, i believe my suggestions just make it more fun in the long term for survivors without impeding the fun of Killers who just want to "win." If you're happy with just "winning," great, you're still going to be able to play as normal, you'll just get the Blood Point penalties. If you're unhappy with getting minimal Blood Points, well how is it fair that a Facecamped Survivor gets minimal Blood Points then?
If I genuinely wanted Tunneling/Camping removed from the game, then it'd just be easier to apply an increasing slow effect on killers when they stay near hook/hook the same Survivor multiple times within a short span of time and/or even increase ability/attacking cooldown.
True, but if a game goes south for me, Im not in the basement but at the nearest hook I can muster. If I am at the basement, then I feel I have things under control. Normally I avoid camping as I dont find it very fun for me to stay near a surv and for the one hooked. I like do it in a dire state. Otherwise I can say I sometimes proxy camp as I scout for survivors to harass/chase. Or I just leave hook if I know where another surv is right away. But I will agree, in the basement he's a beast
"So when it comes to sweaty swf bully squads, I don't often feel the need to camp them, even when they're being toxic and when I do, then the fixes I suggest already address the issue. If a bully squad is just about trying to bully the killer, that's honestly fine with me when I play killer because it means Gens aren't being done and all I have to do is switch up how I tackle the current situation. If they're popping gens like crazy, well then the penalties are removed towards late game and usually that's when I'd have to resort to camping (and when Camping really become the only objective for Killer anyways)."
Honestly depends on player level and map, when I was new during Halloween event, a flashlight gang bullied me on Coldwind, I was still new and relied on Lightborn, one time I didnt get it I was demolished and I played as toxic as possible by camping and all that and for a new player its worse when they dont do gens but just stay to harass you, honestly one of my most miserable games. Argubly I am better now. I am still not confident against 3 flashlighters. And the last time it happened was vs Legion. I decided "######### this #########, Im gonna farm" and I was right to recognize a swf with Head Ons and Flashlights, Im not a Legion main so Im not that skilled with them. I decided to not even sweat that match. When they thanked me post game for that, they asked why tho. I simply replied that I wasnt gonna deal with a triple flashlight and head on squad. They even sent me to their map. And yeah, best way to avoid bullies is to not even engage them the way they want you to
And really this "have fun/don't take it personally" mindset is something I believe the BP/Stage system should encourage. If you aren't going for a sweaty win streak or playing competition, it really isn't healthy to be unhappy just because you got out of a game with just 1 kill. While BHVR can't really address the competitive nature of people, they certainly can encourage people to just have respect for other people's time (like with the new update and everyone just being able to pick themselves back up/the finishing mori).
Yea and the MMR implementation certainly made it competitive and if killer tries to play nice or even friendly we just outright lose and get punished for it. Forcing us to play sweaty for the wins and be unhappy if we dont do well.
In light of the recent ub basekit reveal do you think your ideas still work out?
Especially the very hard penalty for killing a survivor without distributing the hooks evenly. Woulnd that make a survivor invincibile.? One surv could force himself on me and when he is on dead hook he can't die because I get punishment for killing him and I can't slug him
3K is win that's all and 4K is blowout.
The survivor has the right to escape and win, and the killer has the duty to entertain the survivor.
You are kidding, right?
I absolutely do believe my ideas will still work out because there isn't a hard penalty for distributing hooks evenly, I believe I mentioned a reward incentive for distributing hooks evenly though.
If we're talking about the penalty I suggested for a Survivor dying on hook before at least 2 hooks have been made on other survivors, which can be just 2 hooks on 1 other survivor, I don't think it will really affect healthy gameplay with this update especially considering I already had the caveat of the penalties for this and camping to stop once the game is at 2 gens or less to power doors.
When it comes to a survivor that's been hooked twice take protection hits, honestly I don't really see this becoming a huge issue because, chances are at that point you're already down to 2 gens or less. If not, then honestly the killer has time to get hooks elsewhere/down the Survivor and continue after the other target.
And honestly, I like the idea of the Emblem system being a bigger indication of winning or not, but I also want the system to be overhauled to encourage healthy behaviors. For example, Survivors can only get Iridescent Survival by not being put into the dying state even Once in the game and Gold if they escape. Honestly, I hate that because it discourages taking protection hits for Survivors who've been hooked more or just really terrible gameplay like hiding in lockers/the corner of the map to wait for hatch.
I'd also want the distribution of hooks for Killers to count more towards their emblems as opposed to just total number of hooks. And I don't mean just keep the number of hooks required the same, but also add on that they must be distributed, I mean a killer should get bonuses to points in the Devout category for hooking survivors with the least amount of hooks and a bonus for getting at least 1 hook on each survivor.
I don't believe anything I said even comes close to this. Both sides should have a right to play and have fun. If your sense of having fun is just getting 3k/4k, then maybe you should consider just playing bots? Because I've had several games as Killer where I'd catch all 4 survivors in a very unfortunate place, down all 4 of them, then bring back the last one to pick up their friends so we can have a soft reset and actually have fun. Why? Because just instantly downing everyone and getting 4 kills isn't fun to me. The chasing, the mindgaming, the time management is what I find fun about the game.
If I was to throw your phrasing back at you, it'd be something along the lines of "So the Killer has the right to get 4k and the Survivor has the duty to just hang there on the hook? You're kidding, right?"
It also becomes very apparent that people haven't fully read nor understood the opening post when they say something like this because a killer CAN still do all this and be minimally affected if they don't care about Blood Points or Killer Stages (whether it be because they're already iridescent 1 or they just don't care), in which case most of the things I suggested really only affect the payout for these activities.
Additionally, a Killer should absolutely not get the same number of blood points as the best performing Survivors of a game if all they do is grab a Survivor, throw them on a hook, then sit there. At a certain point there's very little that Survivor can do if their team now decides to just concentrate on Generators because they realize the Killer is just camping. So in that case, the killer would get to "win", but pay out some of their blood points to the survivor for unsportsmanlike conduct and that's it.
I am sorry if I offended you, as my words were not directed at you.
And I admit that I overreacted to the word toxic in the title and did not read your argument deeply enough, and I apologize. Again, I apologize. I am a fool.
Camping and tunneling (with the exception of the Bubba Faith camp right after the start) is legitimate in my opinion. But at the same time, I understand that survivors are frustrated.
It is only natural that both sides should be able to enjoy the game. But that seems to be a difficult question. I have heard that the developers are aiming for a 2kill-2escape line. The idea is that the killer should be satisfied with having executed half the survivors. In my opinion, if one of the reasons behind the dissatisfaction with camping and tunneling is that they are dying, then there will be survivors who will be dissatisfied even if it is 1kill-3escape.
If face camping is allowed, it is a hook after all 5 generators have been repaired. I would affirm that. Because there is nothing else to do. If camping were not allowed even under those circumstances, then I would say the words I just said. But I was mistaken. Sorry.
Let me get back to the point. I am in the position of considering them not TOXIC, but I agree with your suggestion because I think it is better if both parties can enjoy the game.
It makes sense to compensate the survivor who had them done to them in the form of Blood Points compensation.
In my opinion, to discourage camping and tunneling, I would rather have a system that encourages people not to do it, rather than the idea of punishing killers by base kit boro time, quick, etc.
There are actually a few PERKS that benefit from hooking evenly or staying off the hook. How about a base kit of those in smaller numbers? However, I would also like to see it not apply to S tier killers such as Nurse and Bright. Hard to think about this.
No worries, I definitely used Hyperbole in the title to get people's attention. I suppose the point I'm trying to get across is that early game facecamping and tunneling are pushing people away from playing Survivor.
I still believe that Facecamping and Tunneling and relatively toxic and sort of needs to be addressed because while it might not be personal or anything, after all having someone on hook to bait out other survivors and/or removing 1 survivor means less things that can be accomplished at once by the Survivors, in the end it's still removing a player from the game and I feel like it's bad manners when this is done early game and on purpose.
Honestly while my suggestions are mainly based around the Emblem system and Blood Points and I certainly believe the Emblem system should be tweaked, I would like to see a lot more game-impacting mechanics that encourage healthy behavior. Base kit BT honestly was a good decision IMO in fact, I wish they didn't reduce the time down to 5 seconds because that doesn't do much to deter many killers from Tunneling. In fact, most killer might just take the BT hit then pursue for the down. I also like the idea of base kit UB and would honestly like to see a base kit DS (especially considering the nerf down to 3 seconds) and even a base kit Reassurance.
On the other hand, I'd also like to see more base kit buffs for killers to shore up their issues. For example, maybe something like a base-kit Pop/Surveillance where whenever you hook a Survivor with the least number of hooks/tied for the least number of hooks, you get a token. For each token you have, all generators change hues to show their progression for 3 seconds. Additionally, the next time you kick a generator, that generator regresses 7% per token. The number of tokens resets if you hook a Survivor other than one with the least number of hooks/tied for the least number of hooks. Or built-in automatic Generator regression where a Generator that is untouched begins to regress at 20% of the normal rate which builds up to 100% regression over the next 15 Seconds.
The only issue with killer base kit changes is that the variance between effectiveness of killers is much higher than Survivors, but really the only issues I see that might pop up with changes like these is just to the strength of already oppressive killers, namely Nurse. In the end though, trust me when I say that for killers Generators seem as though they just don't pop at all or they just pop too fast and something to combat that a bit would be nice and would hopefully help with the issue of Killers feeling like they may need to camp/tunnel.
Emblem system should we reworked for sure. With all the meta changes and such. Killer adepts are getting too hard. As opposed to a Merciless, Killers should just get a 4k for the adept