BodyBlocking and Keeping the game HOSTAGE should be LEGAL.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 7, 2018

BodyBlocking and Keeping the game HOSTAGE should be LEGAL.

You read the title.

In my opinion, (which is a fact) it'll take less time to implement the change I'm about to propose than going through all the bodyblock/hostage reports and see which ones are valid.

What is keeping a survivor hostage?

Keeping a survivor hostage means that through bodyblocking, you prevent them from moving. This prevents them from doing anything and if you don't attack, then you stand there infinitely, thus forcing the survivor to Disconnect.

Keeping the game hostage only counts if the killer doesn't gain a strategic edge from bodyblocking the survivor for a prolongued amount of time, for example:

If 2 survivors are dead, 1 is hooked and you bodyblock the last one, than you can validly do so for the entire time the other survivor is hooked if you wish to do so.

Let's not waste time!

Angry survivors are quick to throw out statements about "You bodyblocked, reported!". Of course, valid users of bodyblocking wouldn't get reported easily, but why waste time at all?

Let's make keeping the game hostage no longer a bannable offense!

Are you crazy?

No. Instead of making bodyblocking reportable, forcing others to check if it's valid, we replace this whole process with a few lines of code.

Now network the code and done.

Explanation:
Instead of using the report system, we make it so that there is a bodyblock timer. This timer counts to 60 and if you have been touching the killer for 60 seconds, you'll be able to pass through him for 5 seconds. When not colliding with the killer, the timer also slowly decreases.

End note

Boom, problem solved. Only a few lines of code, no more bodyblock whiners or need for people to have their accounts banned for simply playing the game (in a funny way).

Larcz · December 8, 2018

About body block did we dont fix that with next dlc perk? Becose this is how devs work fix game with dlc and new perks no patch and solve problem.

twistedmonkey · December 8, 2018

Well the ones who don't read the rules and keep sending in false reports will end up temp banned.

Body blocking is not bannable by means of using it as a strategy in play, holding the game hostage for 20 mins not allowing the game to progress is it's simple.

Making any system is too abusable, killers can still do it in the basement, starting at the bottom and walking up the stairs a bit before the timer runs out, survivors can hold the game hostage while moving around staying in the game stealthing around.

There is no simple solution to it and hence they made it agaisnt the rules and temp ban for it, there are too many factors to simply try and fix only one scenario and them say you won't get banned, if the user base in DBD has taught the devs anything it is that players will find a way to abuse anything.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 8, 2018

@twistedmonkey

This code solves basement camping too. (if it's for an overdue amount of seconds).
Yes, if you just hide in the basement you'll never escape, but you have a factual and uncounterable (on the killers side) way to slip by him too, which is again standing right next to him.

If he takes a step back as you said, then you walk a bit further and the timer will go down by like 0.1 seconds before it starts increasing again? All in all, you'll get out in around 125 seconds.

The solution proposed solves ALL FORMS of killerbased "taking the game hostage through bodyblocking" scenario's.

Just like many shooters prevent through code that you can shoot your teammates instead of handling it through reports, we do the same with invalid bodyblocking for killers.

@Kaelum

If BHVR deems this worthy of something to do, they could detect when the killer is in the blockable stairway area, there are no survivors above the killer, and there are survivors in the area below that.

Why would they even do that?

This code already solved that problem; there is no way a killer can lock a survivor in any given spot for an invalid amount of time, wherever they are.

twistedmonkey · December 8, 2018

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

@twistedmonkey

This code solves basement camping too. (if it's for an overdue amount of seconds).
Yes, if you just hide in the basement you'll never escape, but you have a factual and uncounterable (on the killers side) way to slip by him too, which is again standing right next to him.

If he takes a step back as you said, then you walk a bit further and the timer will go down by like 0.1 seconds before it starts increasing again? All in all, you'll get out in around 125 seconds.

The solution proposed solves ALL FORMS of killerbased "taking the game hostage through bodyblocking" scenario's.

Just like many shooters prevent through code that you can shoot your teammates instead of handling it through reports, we do the same with invalid bodyblocking for killers.

And what about the legit tactic of waiting out a bear trap with the pig? that is 2m30 seconds so you need to allow for that, this means a killer can still hold someone in there legitimately for no reason for a prolonged period of time, down them let them wiggle in a corner of the basement or drop them from the top so the stagger comes into effect, go back to the stairs and try to block them again, 2m30 seconds yet again, or keep dropping them and letting them wiggle, they could also down them and let them bleed out wasting time, as I said people will always find a way to abuse something, it doesn't fix the overall problem it just makes it so those that wish to troll find another way.

This is why there is a rule stating don't take the game hostage where it cannot progress as it covers a multitude of reason, break them and face a temp ban, that is why temp bans are in place to teach people a lesson.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 8, 2018

@twistedmonkey

You can change the maxBodyblockTime variable depending on a situation. If there is an abnormality such as you mention then all you need to do as add 1 boolean (isPlayerBearTrapped) which is already in the game and use that to set the maxBodyblockTime to the beartrap timer as long as that condition is true.

About 4 extra lines of code and I think we just covered all abnormalities with it. Pure and simple.

This is why there is a rule stating don't take the game hostage where it cannot progress as it covers a multitude of reason, break them and face a temp ban, that is why temp bans are in place to teach people a lesson.

Banning players for something you can let the game solve yourself is terrible game design.
And if it's true that Not_Queen specified the rule exactly as @Kaelum did, then the official rule doesn't even solve the problem.

These few lines of code do.

MasonHugsCats · December 8, 2018

Sometimes bodyblocking is required, not to trap players but to prevent them getting to areas such as the hatch. I've only done this once but I bodyblocked a stairway that led into the weird cabin thing on the swamp map. As I knew the hatch was inside. This was the only way I could 4k.

twistedmonkey · December 8, 2018

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

@twistedmonkey

You can change the maxBodyblockTime variable depending on a situation. If there is an abnormality such as you mention then all you need to do as add 1 boolean (isPlayerBearTrapped) which is already in the game and use that to set the maxBodyblockTime to the beartrap timer as long as that condition is true.

About 4 extra lines of code and I think we just covered all abnormalities with it. Pure and simple.

This is why there is a rule stating don't take the game hostage where it cannot progress as it covers a multitude of reason, break them and face a temp ban, that is why temp bans are in place to teach people a lesson.

Banning players for something you can let the game solve yourself is terrible game design.
And if it's true that Not_Queen specified the rule exactly as @Kaelum did, then the official rule doesn't even solve the problem.

These few lines of code flights.

That proves my point as already it's not just a simple fix it is now already something becoming a lot more, and it still only solves one small aspect of the problem not the overall problems, as I said the players why always find another way, what's next no stagger on basement stairs? If you stealth too long you get kicked out? Its not one simply code to fix the overall problem there are many many ways which would need sorted.

It's not about bad game design as the only way to sort it is to force end it the game and they pick a winner, it's about the players abusing something just because they can, temp bans are a lesson in most online games to teach players what they shouldn't do and read the rules.

The rule is simple and not at all complex, holding the game hostage means not allowing it to progress, if they can die or you are actively looking to escape it does not count, it's not rocket science to understand that.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 8, 2018

@twistedmonkey

That proves my point as already it's not just a simple fix it is now already something becoming a lot more, and it still only solves one small aspect of the problem not the overall problems, as I said the players why always find another way

it is now already something becoming a lot more

With this becoming a lot more, you really mean adding 1 if statement to deal with 1 killer's exception?

it's not just a simple fix

It is simple. It is very simple. It is so simple that a 10 year old can code it.

it still only solves one small aspect of the problem

It solves 100% of all the Killers being able to keep survivors hostage.

as I said the players why always find another way, what's next no stagger on basement stairs? If you stealth too long you get kicked out?

What does this have to do with a killer keeping a survivor hostage again?

It's not about bad game design as the only way to sort it is to force end it the game and they pick a winner

Sometimes I seriously doubt if you understand the post.
There's no picking a winner. When a survivor is basement trapped, the killer should hit him if nothing else is going on on the map, thus progressing the game. No winner should be picked.

Avariku · December 8, 2018

that one simple addition to the code only possibly fixes ONE of the other potential issues that could pop up from this.
thus pointing out that more and more coding would be needed for each additional potential issue. doesn't sound "simple" to me.

and that doesn't entirely solve the issue of banning people for breaking the rules which happens with every online game and SHOULD happen.

You're arguing way too hard for a solution that has already been proven to be ineffective, through nothing more than common sense I might add.

you stated yourself that the intention of this was to stop erroneous claims/reports by survivors, something else that banning will teach a lesson about.

and no, a 10yr old could not code something like this reliably, thats why we don't have 10 yr old kids designing complex games like this.

but ultimately I guess it's up to bhvr if they want to employ the usage of in-game coding to potentially solve this issue or not, as it could technically be done. with that said, acting like it's the most efficient and proper way to go about it is nothing more than opinion. (no more or less valid than anyone else's opinion on it, save for bhvr)

twistedmonkey · December 8, 2018

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

@twistedmonkey

That proves my point as already it's not just a simple fix it is now already something becoming a lot more, and it still only solves one small aspect of the problem not the overall problems, as I said the players why always find another way

it is now already something becoming a lot more

With this becoming a lot more, you really mean adding 1 if statement to deal with 1 killer's exception?

it's not just a simple fix

It is simple. It is very simple. It is so simple that a 10 year old can code it.

it still only solves one small aspect of the problem

It solves 100% of all the Killers being able to keep survivors hostage.

as I said the players why always find another way, what's next no stagger on basement stairs? If you stealth too long you get kicked out?

What does this have to do with a killer keeping a survivor hostage again?

It's not about bad game design as the only way to sort it is to force end it the game and they pick a winner

Sometimes I seriously doubt if you understand the post.
There's no picking a winner. When a survivor is basement trapped, the killer should hit him if nothing else is going on on the map, thus progressing the game. No winner should be picked.

You just don't get it, as others are trying to point out like myself it does not fix the problem.

So to reiterate it once more, it does not solve the overall problem of being able to take the game hostage by killers 100% it simply removes one of many ways.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 8, 2018

@twistedmonkey

So to reiterate it once more, it does not solve the overall problem of being able to take the game hostage by killers 100% it simply removes one of many ways.

If you manage to name even 1 of the many ways, then I'll abdicate.

If you as a killer can keep me hostage and I cannot prove that through my code I can bypass you then you'll be right and I'll be wrong.

If you fail to do so it'll amount in the opposite. Go~

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 8, 2018

@Avariku

that one simple addition to the code only possibly fixes ONE of the other potential issues that could pop up from this.

Name a second killer that has a mechanic in which they could possibly benefit from trapping a survivor in a corner for a longer duration than 120 seconds and show me how much of them you can find.

and that doesn't entirely solve the issue of banning people for breaking the rules which happens with every online game and SHOULD happen.

In shooters they remove friendly fire because people don't want to be shot at, instead of having deliberate friendly fire banned, they took care of the code, with now the vast majority playing shooters with friendly fire off. Did that ban all possible reporting issues? No.
How is this even a point?

and no, a 10yr old could not code something like this reliably, thats why we don't have 10 yr old kids designing complex games like this.

They teach programming to kids nowadays.
If you asked a basic kid with programming lessons to write a script that turned off a component (in this the killer collidor) for a few amount of seconds, they'd be able to do so.

There is nothing complex here. Just a timer that turns something off if it reaches a certain point for a certain duration.
If that's difficult code to you then any code is. Even changing a simple variable.

Dreamnomad · December 8, 2018

It's actually not a bad idea. Solves a problem without being too intrusive. If you are body blocking for more than a minute then you are abusing it anyway. Some of the coding may need to be changed. Instead of actually touching for a minute then it would probably be better if it was within a certain proximity for a minute. That would save the fringe cases where the killer is able to move a little bit and reset the timer.

Kaelum · December 9, 2018

I am not going to respond to those who do nothing but restate the same incorrect/inaccurate information over, and over, and over, and over again. Here is a link to the core rules:

Game rules and report system

As not_QUEEN has stated many times, these are ONLY the core rules. There are additional rules and considerations that are based on these rules. It is not feasible to code rules into the game for many of these situations if it does not significantly address the issue. A half-assed fix is just that, half-assed.

Why might you ask? Because players love to bend the rules. If you code something to address an issue, then players expect it to address the issue fully. If they can still do something in the game that it doesn't address, then it is the developer's fault and they're going to do it anyway. And since they know that they can't address it with code, they know that there is very little chance of getting caught. Those with blinders on disregard these issues, which would end up making the situation much worse.

I think the devs are doing exactly what they need to, and not addressing this fringe case is the right call. A few here disagree with that, and that is their right. However, this is BHVR's game and they will do what is in their best interest.

twistedmonkey · December 9, 2018

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

@twistedmonkey

So to reiterate it once more, it does not solve the overall problem of being able to take the game hostage by killers 100% it simply removes one of many ways.

If you manage to name even 1 of the many ways, then I'll abdicate.

If you as a killer can keep me hostage and I cannot prove that through my code I can bypass you then you'll be right and I'll be wrong.

If you fail to do so it'll amount in the opposite. Go~

I already did, read back the posts as at this point it seems your trolling.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 9, 2018

@twistedmonkey

After rereading I understand where your misunderstanding comes from.

In the beginning of the post you failed to understand that we were talking about killer exclusively. Thus you started to mention irrelevant topics such as survivors keeping the game hostage.
After I pointed this out to you, you refused to understand it.

Then you failed to understand the definition, clarified in the Original Post at the literal beginning, which would cover what we would be trying to solve:

(headline) WHAT IS KEEPING A SURVIVOR HOSTAGE?
(text) Keeping a survivor hostage means that through bodyblocking, you prevent them from moving. This prevents them from doing anything and if you don't attack, then you stand there infinitely, thus forcing the survivor to Disconnect.

Just as with many terms, across working-fields and topics, words have a slightly different meaning. Some words within 1 working field can have been mentioned with over 120 different definitions all optimised around the exact topic they cover. They are clarified and defined at the start, before ever uttered, thus allowing the reader to understand.

You either refused to understand or did not read the original post.

If you understood the definition, knew we were not talking about keeping the killer hostage, and knew we were discussing keeping the base hostage (through) body blocking, then your comments would've deviated a whole lot more from the epitome of illiteracy:

Kaelum said:
 I’m not sure what game you are playing, but it certainly isn’t DbD. Body blocking is not bannable, unless it is being used to take the game hostage, thus taking the game hostage is bannable. However, this is NOT the type of game hostage that everyone is talking about. Survivors remaining in the game AFTER the exit gates are open, is what pretty much everyone is talking about. Nice troll post though.

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
I already made clear what is meant by the terms.
This is about the killer holding the game hostage through bodyblocking (forcing a disconnect), which Not_Queen has responded to is bannable.

However, this is NOT the type of game hostage that everyone is talking about.

^ This is what WE are talking about. What others talk about is irrelevant. But let's assume that you have better reading skills then the person quoted.

What you fail to see.

I created code that solved 100% of illegitimate bodyblocking, thus completely removing it as a bannable offense.

We achieved our goal here;

The problem is that by stating that a form of bodyblocking (keeping the survivor hostage) is a reportable issue

It no longer is.

Here are your attempts at showing this was untrue:

1.
In a basement it wouldn't work. (It does. Just don't linger around in the basement and push the killer. If he walks backwards you walk forwards. The timer doesn't reset when not colliding. It only slightly decreases.
This code would allow a survivor to bypass/push back a killer in an infinitely long hallway.)

2.
You mentioned the pig timer. This wasn't even really a case of it being untrue, but rather that you want me to reconsider what the maxBodyblockTime should be.
And I said; if you want the number increased in specific scenario's you can easily do so. I asked you to name a second exception and you failed to do so.
But since you already gave up on providing cases where my code wouldn't solve infinite bodyblocking to keep the game hostage, things will only get more fun:

3.
You switched out the definition provided in the start of the Original post to have 2 definitions running at the same time.
Then you tried to inflate Carrying-based keeping the game hostage with our keeping the game hostage (through bodyblocking).

The problem is that by stating that a form of bodyblocking (keeping the survivor hostage) is a reportable issue

Why did you even mention basement-dropping off the stairs? Could it be that you fail to understand this post?

What does this have to do with bodyblocking? What does this have to do with the difference between Legal bodyblocking and (currently) Illegal bodyblocking and completely abandoning the separation between them and making them both legal through code?

The code solves the issue 100% and you agree

You kept stating that this code didn't solve the issue, but you never mentioned where it didn't.

The only things you mentioned were a suggestion that you wanted the maxBodyBlockTimer increased during the pigs RBT and you gave your opinion that you would also like to see code for carry-based keeping the game hostage and survivor based keeping the game hostage, but then again, never did you show me how my code wouldn't solve the issue a 100%.

There is 0 way a killer can keep the game hostage through bodyblocking, even in the infinitely long hallway that I mentioned.

Do you want survivor based stalling, yadda yadda fixed? Well, that's a separate topic, but we too can address this with code and it too wouldn't be too complicated. There would not be an infinitely amount of ways. Especially not since we already took out about 80% of the ways a killer could infinitely extend the game.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 9, 2018

@Avariku said:
that one simple addition to the code only possibly fixes ONE of the other potential issues that could pop up from this.
thus pointing out that more and more coding would be needed for each additional potential issue. doesn't sound "simple" to me.

and that doesn't entirely solve the issue of banning people for breaking the rules which happens with every online game and SHOULD happen.

You're arguing way too hard for a solution that has already been proven to be ineffective, through nothing more than common sense I might add.

you stated yourself that the intention of this was to stop erroneous claims/reports by survivors, something else that banning will teach a lesson about.

and no, a 10yr old could not code something like this reliably, thats why we don't have 10 yr old kids designing complex games like this.

but ultimately I guess it's up to bhvr if they want to employ the usage of in-game coding to potentially solve this issue or not, as it could technically be done. with that said, acting like it's the most efficient and proper way to go about it is nothing more than opinion. (no more or less valid than anyone else's opinion on it, save for bhvr)

Name 1 case where the code doesn't solve the issue. So far you have nothing. The rest of your argument falls apart quickly after that.

Also,

something else that banning will teach a lesson about.

Why should they be taught a lesson for a crime they can no longer commit?

twistedmonkey · December 9, 2018

AlwaysInAGoodShape

No I understood fine and if you had read what i wrote I acknowledged it only solves one issue, blocking is only one scenario nothing more it also need adapted to suit different killers like the pig.

As I said what is to stop a killer at the basement downing someone, letting the wiggle so they can fall onto the stairs getting stagger, downing them again rinse and repeat, there are many ways to hold a game hostage maybe not indefinitely but for a very very long time, and your way only fixes one small problem, players will always find a way and in no way does this solve the OVERALL problem so the rules for banning will need to stay in place.

Just because you think it's a great idea does not mean it is, shifting a problem does not fix it, it simply creates another, in time hopefully you will learn realise this.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 9, 2018

@twistedmonkey said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape

No I understood fine and if you had read what i wrote I acknowledged it only solves one issue, blocking is only one scenario nothing more it also need adapted to suit different killers like the pig.

As I said what is to stop a killer at the basement downing someone, letting the wiggle so they can fall onto the stairs getting stagger, downing them again rinse and repeat, there are many ways to hold a game hostage maybe not indefinitely but for a very very long time, and your way only fixes one small problem, players will always find a way and in no way does this solve the OVERALL problem so the rules for banning will need to stay in place.

Just because you think it's a great idea does not mean it is, shifting a problem does not fix it, it simply creates another, in time hopefully you will learn realise this.

The issue: The problem is that by stating that a form of bodyblocking (keeping the survivor hostage) is a reportable issue

Try again. You just keep mentioning other topics.

There's also no "Shifting" of the issue. There is only elimination.

twistedmonkey · December 9, 2018

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

The issue: The problem is that by stating that a form of bodyblocking (keeping the survivor hostage) is a reportable issue

Try again. You just keep mentioning other topics.

There's also no "Shifting" of the issue. There is only elimination.

And you are too single focused on one way to hold the game hostage by body blocking, by removing one way and leaving the others it does not solve the issue, all it does is change how those players decide to do it, hence it SHIFTS the problem from body blocking to another way.

You have to open your mind more as right now you can't seem to see the Forrest for the trees, the banning rules will still need to stay in place so what overall does it accomplish? In the whole aspect of being able to take the game hostage nothing really.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · December 9, 2018

@twistedmonkey

If in gta5 you can sell cars and keep them with a bug (called bug 1) and there's another bug that allows you to sell your house while keeping it (bug 2), then solving the car bug (bug 1) is not "shifting the problem". It is pure and simple the elimination of bug 1.

At least you are interested now

So you seem to be interested in my superior design philosophy of having the game fix issues instead of using bans. At least you seem to distance youself from Kaelum's idea about proper game-design.

Intended gameplay; A survivor should not be allowed to survive for longer than 60 seconds during the struggle-phase.

Kaelum: Ban them after the match if they keep struggling for longer than 60 seconds!
Shape: Make the game automatically kill them after 60 in the struggling-phase.

Intended gameplay; Players should stay inside of the map.

Kaelum: Ban them after the match if they leave the map!
Shape: Place walls around the map preventing them from leaving the map. If they still manage to get to an illegal position, teleport them back into the map to the closest legal position.

So now you agreed with my post and we can state that body blocking is COMPLETELY legal, we will go to your separate post;

I, twisted monkey, want to see all possible ways a killer and survivor can keep the game hostage solved.
So what is keeping the game hostage? Keeping the game hostage means that the killer/survivor has no ability to defend themselves against the opposite faction in their attempt to near infinitely or infinitely extend the game, while neither side making any strategic progress, forcing them to disconnect.

Ways a killer can keep the game hostage:
1. Through Bodyblocking
2. Through the abuse of frequently picking up survivors and letting them go, with the ability to catch up to them.

Ways a survivor can keep the game hostage:
1. By not working towards an objective and using the hiding mechanic to have the killer near infinitely search through the map, while not having a way to make progress in their search, as the survivor can move.

**solving bodyblocking**: *inserts my code *

**solving killers-grab loop**:
For every time a survivor escape's the killer's grasp, they lose Y=30X-30 seconds in their dying state bar upon being downed again. With X being the amount of times you escaped the killers grasp and Y being the amount of seconds depleted instantly from your dying state bar when being hit. (Y get's ignored when it's smaller or equal to 0). (Yes, this means that if you managed to escape the killers grasp for over 3 times and your dyingstate bar is low enough, it's possible for you to be smacked to death!)

And boom, we haven't only solved near infinite killer-grab-taking-the-game-hostage-ing, but also "sabotage" meta's without damaging normal sabotaging. Combo!

**solving survivors keeping the game hostage:**

When the exit gates are powered, the killer has the ability to destroy exit gates and the power-surplus by Attacking the gate handle X amount of times.
If you reach X, all the gates will close (reverse open animation). The hatch will be closed and can no longer be opened by a key. The game will end automatically and all living survivors are counted as dead (because there was no longer a way to escape).

X is the amount of times you have to smack the Gate's handle, before all the power will go off again and can no longer be powered back up. The amount is decided by what we deem reasonable:

Since the killer has to be stationary in order to damage the handle, the survivors should have the time to make their escape during the amount of time it would take the killer to destroy the power.

(Hitting the exit gates also works when the hatch is opened)

**emergency code**

In case we missed anything, which we'll be able to solve later we have the emergency code take care of cases that we are unaware off:

When the game's timer is over 20 minutes, players who disconnect gain a minimum of a neutral pip and keep their bloodpoints.

And now we have everything solved.

The end. Thanks for listening to my (twistedmonkey's) discussion about obliterating the concept of keeping the game hostage.