Pop Goes The Weasel: Problem? Or not?

GoobyNugget

Half a pound of tuppenny rice

Half a pound of treacle

That's the way the money goes

Pop! goes the weasel.

Pop Goes The Weasel is a teachable perk for the Clown, and it's pretty balanced imo.

Opinions?

Up and down the city road, in and out of the eagle, that's the way the money goes, Pop! Goes the weasel, GoobyNugget.

sonata93

It's certainly one of the more powerful perks in the game, but no more powerful than some of the survivor meta perks in my opinion.

elpoh

is fine, not all the killers are able to down survivors fast enought to be able to reach the gen anyways

Reinami

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2085821#Comment_2085821

There is no way all streamers agree with that, for one, and regardless their opinion doesn't mean much without evidence to back it up. "I played in a few tournaments, and..." or "I get beaten badly by SWFs occasionally and I'm a good player" or "everyone agrees that..." aren't good arguments no matter who is making them. It is a debate until someone can provide a shred of rigorous underpinning to that point of view.

It's also a pointless argument so long as MMR isn't mature because survivors are statistically underperforming at high rank. Even if you're right and the game is survivor-sided at the highest skill levels, that will be irrelevant until matchmaking improves because squads capable of seizing that advantage are rare at best at high rank. If they weren't, kill rate would not spike so much at red rank. In the real world, for every decent team you face as killer, you're going to face several teams of solos, or boosted potatoes, or a mix of good and bad players. So long as this is the case, I see no reason for the constant "survivor OP" posts on the forum. Even if that balance issue exists at the highest skill ratings, red rank killers should be performing very well. For those that are not, it's probably because they're getting outplayed.

They do though. Watch that debate scott had when they were talking about hooks vs kills. Literally every person in there didn't even debate the idea that survivors are too powerful at high level, it wasn't even a question, it was just a given. Scott even said at the beginning. "We all know that survivors at high skill are too powerful" It wasn't even part of the debate.

valvarez4

i think up to 220secs is too much. It should be 30-35% of actual gen progress, not always 20secs

Reinami

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2087339#Comment_2087339

So, in other words, Scott started his video with a common belief fallacy and as a result there's no room for debate?

I actually just watched the video, but, I didn't hear the "We all know that survivors..." quote, so you'll have to give me the time stamp for that. At any rate, he doesn't get into game balance in the video because it's not relevant to the topic at hand.

The video is entirely about how subjective "wins" are in Dead By Daylight. If anything, accepting that win conditions fundamentally aren't well-defined just makes arguing that one side is overpowered even harder to justify. Someone could call survivors OP because their win condition is 12 hooks and it's hard to 12-hook everyone, for example, but will that convince someone who cares first and foremost about raw kills/escapes, pips, BP gain, rift progress, etc.? Certainly not.

Edit: I've been watching more from these streamers - they seem to say that the absolute best survivor squads are OP based on tournaments as evidence, but also that those squads are extremely rare in public matches. Tournaments are not reflect the experience in a public match, though, even at the highest skills. Win conditions are different, matchups are determined by MMR in the public matches while tournaments use other methods, tournaments ban loadout items, maps, play styles, etc. In order to truly determine balance at the highest skill levels we need a mature MMR and lots of data from those highest-skill matches.

Edit 2: This comment by zarr may be interesting to you:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1890692#Comment_1890692

You watched the wrong video. And it is not a fallacy. Literally just watch a marth stream sometime.

BananaBlooD95

@Reinami said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084879#Comment_2084879

Streamers aren't a great reflection of game balance because they are often substantially better and more experienced than the players they're matched up with. MMR may one day change this, but it's not there yet. For now, both survivor mains and killer mains are putting out their 50 match win streak videos and such, because matchmaking is a much more important factor in the outcome than actual game balance right now.

That's just it though. They are substantially better and more experienced than the players they're matched up with. They often literally play this game for a job, and have 5k+ hours in the game. And STILL, all of these people with more combined knowledge than probably everyone in this thread KNOW that the game is survivor sided. It's not even a debate.

So we agree that both tournament player & streamer are above the average player, good.

We agree that most if not all tournament have restriction, good. Those restriction mostly affect survivor, killer player mostly used the strongest killer and still struggle to win.

Survivor streamer (heck even lot of killer streamer when playing survivor) who often play alone, mind you, often bully the killer in their game, make them lose lot of time. Killer streamer will sweat even vs none swf who are very good at the game, especially if the killer use a mid to low tier killer but it does happen vs top tier killer.

Thing is the ranking system & match making that is based on it is so horrible that you don't often find 4 good survivor in the same game. You often have 1-2 good survivor and 2-3 decent one that are moderately to well under the killer's skill which balance things out for the match. The killer will still lose more than 1/4 of his time of the pretty good survivor, probably more than 30s each chase which is more than what survivor need to do gen and have 2-3 escape.

TrevorLahey93

Well you gotta consistently get hooks to get value and keep up the pressure. It doesnt reward camping. Quite balanced IMO especially after the Nerf.

JimbusCrimbus

@swager21 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2085874#Comment_2085874

you clearly dont know what it feels like. also, my solo queue team dies before we get to 2 gens so what are you talking about

I've got 6k hours in this game. I likely know far more how it feels than you do. I'm just capable of considering that it's just a game.

MadLordJack

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084111#Comment_2084111

Why though? If someone is tapping a gen during a chase they're sacrificing distance to avoid regression. It's a calculated risk, not free.

You should only be kicking a gen if there's a fair amount of progress on it and you are reasonably confident that there are no nearby survivors who will be able to stop the regression. If survivors across the map (for example 20-30 seconds away, as you said) are forced to come to that gen because of the kick, that still could have wasted quite a bit of survivor time, so it might still be a fair decision even against a good team on comms.

I see no reason to buff kicking gens in any way. For one, I haven't seen any data to suggest high-skill killers need a boost. For two, this would increase the gap between SWF and solo because information on which gens are regressing becomes much more important when killers are systematically kicking more.

Survivors shouldn't be unable to undo regression in half a second. Regression is not strong enough to enable that. If a killer kicks a generator, the survivors should actually have to take the time to stop it instead of being able to immediately and with no downside stop the miniscule, slug-paced regression that killers get with zero effort or thought.

And it really wouldn't change anything about SWF or solo. It would simply be a QoL fix that prevents survivors from casually and mindlessly stopping the only basekit slowdown in the game.

swearingtulip28

PGTW is fine imo. The only time I've gotten mad at it was when a clown was tunneling a jake and we were pounding the gens and trying to save the jake. He was caught and killed, while the 3 of us were on the last gen. The ace (i think) got off first when the killer was coming and the tapp and I decided to commit. At like 99%, the tapp got off and got a skill check. We both got off and the killer popped it and that literally destroyed the game for us. Still a fun match but damn.

BananaBlooD95

@MadLordJack said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2084203#Comment_2084203

Survivors shouldn't be unable to undo regression in half a second. Regression is not strong enough to enable that. If a killer kicks a generator, the survivors should actually have to take the time to stop it instead of being able to immediately and with no downside stop the miniscule, slug-paced regression that killers get with zero effort or thought.

And it really wouldn't change anything about SWF or solo. It would simply be a QoL fix that prevents survivors from casually and mindlessly stopping the only basekit slowdown in the game.

I guess it would be a tiny nerf survivor but if killer still mindlessly kick gen, that's 2sec he's not pressuring anyone. But yeah it would mostly be a QoL for killer.

Zaytex

It's hard to use, which is annoying because it's a pretty strong perk but when you're put in a position where you can't use it, like being in a chase or the generator is too far away making the time investment pointless then it can be pretty pointless to have.

It's why Ruin will always be the superior perk. Better regression and it does it automatically, rewarding killers for chasing and applying pressure. Pop, I find really only is as devastating in a 3 generator or something.