Is it me or the Trickster has the same problems Legion had on release?
I reserved my opinion until I had the occasion to play some matches against him, and I must say I don't enjoy facing him, at all. He has a very "old Legion vibe", meaning that once he finds you you know you will go down, very slowly, without much room to counterplay.
Adding that it seems he is considered by the vast majority very weak, I'm having a strong sense of dejavu. I wouldn't rule out a possible rework in the future.
Tbh I'm a bit disappointed that after 2 years the same mistakes are made...
Comments
Trickster is exactly like the old legion, with an exception there's no exploit to make him S tier from F tier
And throwing knives isn't even remotely as fun as stabbing survivors multiple times.
If survivors were able to mend automatically in 10 seconds after last stab, it would've been a 100% copy.
It's actually hilarious how this is the second edgy killer in the game who has exactly the same problems as the first edgy killer.
again, its been a day so lets wait a bit till both sides figure it out a bit more.
But fundamentally you are correct and it makes sense, Huntress is big risk reward, if you hit, its a healthstate, meaning survivors need options to avoid them.
However Trickster gets nothing out of 1 hit, or 2, or 3....4 etc so the hits have to be easier to make (like legion gets a relatively easy m1-ish hit on players in frenzy) but that indeed means that you just get hit and there is not a lot you can really do about it.
so in terms to gameplay on either side I would say it seems pretty meh.
He has counterplay, it's called just holding down Shift+W.
It's boring, and it renders him entirely useless. You don't even have to loop him.
Especially on closed maps.
Yesterday I got like 3 in a row by the end of the session and it was really tilting
It doesn't help survivors know he's terrible and are pulling out all the bully tactics and being extra toxic to anyone trying to play him.
They are gonna wonder why once the craze dies down in a couple days why everyone is playing full meta spirit that tunnels hard off hook.
Have you been playing a different killer? Trickster has an insane amount of counterplay and you will not go down at all unless he commits to chasing you as a 110 killer. He might be the least oppressive killer in the entire game.
He is nothing like Old Legion. There is no comparison to be made there. Run a tile tight and he can do nothing. Old Legion downed you no matter what within a set timeframe - Trickster downs you if you screw up and run into the open, same as any other ranged killer. Only he does it worse.
I mean he is like old legion.
Both had to land excessive amount of low damage hits to deal a damage.
Both had a mechanic that basically a second healthbar (lacefuckyouation/deep wound)
However old legion didn't really take a lot of skill to use and was just a weak zero skill killer (unless exploited, then strong zero skill killer) whose entire gameplay was being very fast and stabbing people multiple times.
The difference is lacefuckyouation that magically disappears after a dozen of seconds like nothing happened which greatly ruins the trickster. You can easily land 7 knives, have survivor with "red circle" and then watch them go to another high wall abuse where you physically can't do ######### and see how all your hard work dissimilates in a matter of seconds.
Also, that "main event" ability which was supposed to be a power burst, but it can't be activated when you need it, but rather it forces you to use it regardless of the situation or lose it entirely which is also a big disappointment
Trickster has the exact same counterplay as Huntress. Legion had no counterplay at all. They are incomparable for that reason alone
How does one dodge 60 knives thrown at you in rapid speed.
Don't get me wrong, I believe wholeheartedly that the killer is by far the weakest killer in the game at the moment but unless you're in a maze tile there is actually not that much counterplay to him. Even in a maze tile he'll most likely land some knives. The point I'm trying to make is that yes the killer is stupid weak and it'll take him about 30 minutes to down you, but it's basically inevitable that he downs you because of how low his skillcap actually is. Playing the Trickster doesn't take any skill, the killer itself just sucks.
You can't deny they are very similar nonetheless.
Run any walled tile ever in existence. The few knives that land will decay quick enough.
When I think "Old Legion", I think "zero counterplay/weak killer". That doesn't describe Trickster.
When I think about old Legion my first thought is an easy to use killer who has to land a lot of hits (shots) to do damage and who's weak exactly because of that since he can't really end chases fast.
I guess that's because I almost never used the exploit or the notorious frank's mixtape.
I mean at that point you're relying on the Trickster being bad and not being able to land their knives before they decay. Trickster just needs a whole rework in my opinion or just something else. You can't make the power actually useful without being oppressive, similar to Legion, and that's purely because of they don't require skill to use.
Like... What do you suggest they would change? Make him 115% speed and he'll be able to catch up faster, and land more knive hits in maze tiles and the chance you do have as survivor for the knives to decay, will be even smaller.
Make the knives down faster? Devs would have to be really careful with that because he can throw them so fast.
Make the knives not decay at all? That just makes being downed more inevitable...
The recoil and innaccurate knives remove any ability for a Trickster to be "good". He is not a particularly difficult killer because you cannot improve at rolling a die.
As Trickster, you have a split second at some corners where you can land a shot. You cannot, no matter how skilled you are, consistently land them. It is a die roll.
Bam. Counterplay. Do what you would do agasint any other ranged killer and run a maze tile. He cannot hit you because he is forced not to by a mixture of recoil, movement speed and how the knives travel.
That's a bit flawed. The biggest complaint with Old Legion wasn't that they were weak but that they had no counterplay and were the killer equivalent of nails on chalkboard. Trickster has so much counterplay it's not even funny, which means that his biggest complaint is that he's weak.
I repeat for the last time, their similarity is that they are both the easiest killers of their kind who have to land a lot of "weak" hits on a survivor to empty a "second health bar" to deal damage. That's their main mechanical similarity that makes them alike and different from other killers.
As I also said, that was and is their main problem.
With "without much room to counterplay" I was too vague, I feel the need for a clarification: what I really meant was that his counters seem to just delay the inevitable, all he need is to land a knife every once in a while to eventually down someone, which is very different to how every other killer works.
Delaying it is a counterplay. Bad players will waste too much time trying to down people with knives because it takes too long to do on anyone who is not running around in an open deadzone. It'd be quicker even as a 110% killer to just run after them and hit them with a normal melee attack.
But this is the problem with the Trickster, using his power puts him at too much of a disadvantage. He's already moving at 110% speed, but throwing knives makes him move slower, it takes 8 hits to cause someone to lose a health state but survivors will automatically start to recover Laceration stacks even in a chase if you're not quick enough. It's just not worth it
When you start throwing knives there's an obligation to be completely invested in causing that person to lose a health state with knives because if you manage to catch up to them in the course of a chase and just hit them with your weapon, then all their laceration progress is lost and the throwing of any of those knives was a pointless waste of time because you slowed yourself down to do so and you'd have hit them quicker if you'd not bothered with them to begin with.
My point in fact is not that it doesn't have counters...
The only problem with comparing Old Legion to Trickster is that Old Legion had no real counterplay. Trickster has a ton of counterplay and takes forever to down survivors. On top of that Trickster's kit doesn't lead to a lot of skill expression so it's not like there's a lot of room to improve with him.
I haven't lost a single match to him yet, and I'm really really bad at the game.
You also have to do it twice as much as legion for each health state
In the slightlest, release Legion couldnt be avoided at all, if he stabbed you once you were going down no matter what you did, pallets did nothing, vaults did nothing, there wasnt a single thing you could do to stop him unless he messed up.
That was the only strength old legion had.
Trickster on the other hand lacks this strength, but possesses all and even more weaknesses
Pretty much, he's weak, he's boring to go against, and his power is that of old legion.
They have somewhat of a similar mechanic, but they are pretty different.
Old Legion was a very broken killer with zero counterplay and exploits.
Trickster is a very weak killer whose power isn't even threatening.