When will the basic attack requirement be removed?

BubbaMain64

All that the basic attack requirement does is hinder perks. Any killer who has a legitimate M2 power (Hillbilly, Demo, Oni, Huntress, Blight, etc.) can't use these perks effectively. With the perk Blood Favor it used to be when you injure a survivor and because of that the perk was still bad but at least fun to use. Now it has the basic attack requirement, meaning only M1 killers can use it. So if you Demo shred, Billy curve, Feral Slash, or anything then it's useless. Many of these perks already have cooldowns, so that's another nail in the coffin and also disproves the thought of them being too oppressive. I just can't understand why the devs WILLINGLY limit the perk pool in an already stale meta.

Wooliest_Mammoth

While consistency is definitely important, it's also important to consider the consistency of the perks themselves. It'd be nice to see perks with a basic attack requirement have a balance pass in the future.

Surge works great for some killers, but the cooldown that activates when you Surge a gen that barely has any progress making it not available when you need it for a cluster of gens 30 seconds later is really frustrating.

Although it makes sense for Knockout to work with your main weapon since you're not knocking someone unconcious with a chainsaw... It could create some very interesting builds when used with these killers and with the Trapper build used as an example.

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805283#Comment_1805283

My point is that the cooldown prevents Magical Christmas Land, where good Survivors aren't punished too much by a perk, but bad ones are impacted significantly more. Like old Ruin to a lesser degree.

Also, your focus for whatever reason seems to be that Surge only effects one Generator at a time. Dependent on Map it's more often only one or two gens at a time, but it isn't restricted to only one Gen.

If you want to improve it, focus on making the standardization of the number of generators effected more your focus. Not just removing the Cooldown to brute force the worst-case scenario.

Preventing Magical Christmas Land is not worth holding back the perk. Magical Christmas Land is naturally quite difficult to accomplish.

My problems with Surge lies with the attack restrictions and the cooldown. I have no problem with the fact that the number of gens affected by it depends on you being in the right place at the right time.

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805485#Comment_1805485

Lower Cooldown and general application make Magical Christmas Land much more common, whereas there is more counterplay in running the Killer to a 'dead-zone' with the general requirement of them needing to land an M1. The faster you get the down, especially with some Killers and their Powers, the less counter-play there is.

All the Cooldown removal and General requirement will do is make it stronger on already strong Killers, without making much of a difference on lower tier Killers, given, as you say, Magical Christmas Land isn't common.

No, lower cooldown makes Magical Christmas Land POSSIBLE. It is flat-out not possible to perform the scenario I described with the current cooldown.

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805633#Comment_1805633

Right, sorry. replace common with possible, though the final statement is still the same. It'll mainly be a buff for already strong Killers, without much difference for other Killers barring Magical Christmas Land.

I think it would be a decent buff for even lesser Killers. I say this from personal experience of using Surge on a lesser Killer.

Demogordon_Ramsay

@Almo said:

This requirement will stay. There are things we don't want, like someone going into dying state due to a Bear Trap with Honing Stone triggering stuff like Surge. The alternative to the basic attack requirement is making exceptions. For example we could say Surge works for Demo Shred, but not Trapper BT/HS. Now every time we add a new Killer, we potentially have to through and update every perk with these exceptions. It's just not a maintainable design with the vast amount of perk/addon/power combinations available.

Since every Killer can basic attack, we can create the perk, and know exactly how it works with every Killer without having to check a ton of different interactions. If this means some perks don't work well given some Killers' powers, then that's just the way of it. Not every perk is exactly as useful on one Killer as it is on the others. Learning to choose your perks well to synergize with your chosen Killer is one of the important skills in DbD.

I have heard it said that this answer means we're "lazy"... that we're not willing to "do things that take work". Whole programming languages and paradigms have been based around preventing the same thing in code as we're trying to prevent in design with this strategy. You don't want a ball of yarn of a design where tugging on any little thing pulls a whole ton of others.

In a game as complex as DbD, there will necessarily be some of that. But minimizing it through smart design is still a worthwhile endeavor.

BasicAttack = 1;

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805714#Comment_1805714

So, you want to remove the cooldown, and remove the M1 criteria, not because they needlessly offer barriers to the perk, but because you want the perk to proc more often?

Aren't those two the same thing?

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805817#Comment_1805817

Not necessarily if the general gameplay loop itself acts as a pseudo cooldown.

Pop doesn't have an explicit cooldown, but you need to walk in-between hooks and generators on top of downing Survivors. And even if downing Survivors successively, after kicking the first generator, you can't re-kick the same generator if it's already regressing.

Surge would not have this restriction.

Yeah, and the trade-off is that an individual gen is affected much less than Pop. Even hitting multiple gens with Surge once is a smaller pay-off than Pop.

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805905#Comment_1805905

But the perk doesn't only effect one gen. And no, hitting multiple gens is nearly the same as pop (if you hit two), if not greater than Pop (if more). Since the time the gens spend regressing while you're carrying a Survivor to hook (or slugging them), is a direct result of Surge.

It affects a variable number of gens depending entirely on positioning. Sometimes one, sometimes three, sometimes none.

And no, you'd need to hit 3+ gens in one go for it to be Pop.

Malkhrim

I see why this requirement needs to stay for status effects like Exposed, but I don't see why it shouldn't be removed on specific perks like... Knockout.

Seriously, why was this requirement ever added to Knockout in first place? The perk was far from overpowered, even with the few buffs that came with it's rework. Now this buffs make a little difference when you can use it, but it's useless on many killers. Hell, it's a Leatherface Perk that will rarely be useful on Leatherface.

And now we have The Twins, who can't make good use of any perks with the basic attack requirement. A killer that could use mangled, but can't use Sloppy Butcher efficiently, and who needs to slug a lot, but can't use Knockout while slugging since they will be using their power.

Malkhrim

Also, one change is needed for the sake of consistency: perks that only apply on basic attacks should only be revealed to survivors on basic attacks as well. I noticed that's not what happens with Devour Hope. If you use Blight's Power to hit a survivor exposed by Devour Hope, the survivor won't be instadowned, but every survivor will still be notified the killer has this perk. I saw this happen once, don't know if it's a bug or intended. But a survivor should only be notified by a killer perk being used when someone is affected by it.

TAG

@[Deleted User] said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805980#Comment_1805980

From a straight numerical standpoint of the point of the perk activation with the explicit 8% regression. Yes. That is not taking into consideration its residual effects.

Overall the perk is far too inconsistent that trying to make it better just through sheer number of occurrences is simply asking for trouble for a passive perk.

I am considering the residual effects as well.

And I disagree. I think Surge is safe to buff by easing up the attack restrictions and removing the cooldown.

Haddix

@Almo said:

This requirement will stay. There are things we don't want, like someone going into dying state due to a Bear Trap with Honing Stone triggering stuff like Surge. The alternative to the basic attack requirement is making exceptions. For example we could say Surge works for Demo Shred, but not Trapper BT/HS. Now every time we add a new Killer, we potentially have to through and update every perk with these exceptions. It's just not a maintainable design with the vast amount of perk/addon/power combinations available.

Since every Killer can basic attack, we can create the perk, and know exactly how it works with every Killer without having to check a ton of different interactions. If this means some perks don't work well given some Killers' powers, then that's just the way of it. Not every perk is exactly as useful on one Killer as it is on the others. Learning to choose your perks well to synergize with your chosen Killer is one of the important skills in DbD.

I have heard it said that this answer means we're "lazy"... that we're not willing to "do things that take work". Whole programming languages and paradigms have been based around preventing the same thing in code as we're trying to prevent in design with this strategy. You don't want a ball of yarn of a design where tugging on any little thing pulls a whole ton of others.

In a game as complex as DbD, there will necessarily be some of that. But minimizing it through smart design is still a worthwhile endeavor.

So what would be the problem with Honing Stone triggering Surge? Would this be OP and make Trapper too strong and oppressive?

Vetrathene

@Almo said:

This requirement will stay. There are things we don't want, like someone going into dying state due to a Bear Trap with Honing Stone triggering stuff like Surge. The alternative to the basic attack requirement is making exceptions. For example we could say Surge works for Demo Shred, but not Trapper BT/HS. Now every time we add a new Killer, we potentially have to through and update every perk with these exceptions. It's just not a maintainable design with the vast amount of perk/addon/power combinations available.

Since every Killer can basic attack, we can create the perk, and know exactly how it works with every Killer without having to check a ton of different interactions. If this means some perks don't work well given some Killers' powers, then that's just the way of it. Not every perk is exactly as useful on one Killer as it is on the others. Learning to choose your perks well to synergize with your chosen Killer is one of the important skills in DbD.

I have heard it said that this answer means we're "lazy"... that we're not willing to "do things that take work". Whole programming languages and paradigms have been based around preventing the same thing in code as we're trying to prevent in design with this strategy. You don't want a ball of yarn of a design where tugging on any little thing pulls a whole ton of others.

In a game as complex as DbD, there will necessarily be some of that. But minimizing it through smart design is still a worthwhile endeavor.

Honestly this is a change that I think is not lazy. It can be frustrating sometimes on killers like Legion who got a lot of use out these perks working on what is basically an enhanced basic attack. But overall I think it was a good change and does make things easier for everyone in the long run, both the devs and the players.