Twins would be a lot more interesting if...
There was no visible cue that the killer switched from one to the other. I was hoping that it would be something like the killer just looks afk, then you could equip Insidious maybe or do something to make it look like you are not controlling Charlotte but you actually are. Sort of like a Spirit standing still. But alas there is a very visible cue that the killer switched from one to the other. Removes a lot of fun mind game potential I think.
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I mean if you see/hear Victor you'd want to stay away anyway. And if it's Charlotte then you just play cautious and don't go near her either. It's not like she can start to move without giving away that she is there because of the TR.
Yeah that'd be fun for the killer but imagine it for the survivor. You've worked your gen to some 90% then charlotte comes and kicks it, goes to victor infront of it and if you dare to go repair that gen you get grabbed for free since you can't tell if she's controling herself or victor.
I think it's better to have at least some amount of transition time, a bit shorter then the current one would be ok but there needs to be some to prevent such dumb free hits/downs.
Except you can't put her near a hook.
Also they don't know where she is anyway if the killer hides Charlotte nearby. If she is in full view, well what is she gonna do from 20m or however far she has to be from a hook. She might as well just put on Insidious and stand right next to the hook if that was the plan.
It just doesn't make sense to me to tell survivors when the killer switches from one to the other. Part of the benefit of being in 2 places at once is being able to surprise your opponent. But when you're opponent knows when you switch from one to the other, all element of surprise is lost.
Also it's not like SWF can't do this anyway. My group already calls out where Charlotte is parked and where Victor is going. If there was no visual cue they switched then I wouldn't even try to do the gen she's standing next to because at any moment one of my friends can lose sight of Victor and they switched to Charlotte and I get yoinked because I never saw the swap. It adds to their map pressure when you can threaten a survivor while basically being AFK with one of them.
I actually do the opposite most of the time. I stash Victor away somewhere and use Charlotte to pressure generators. Then, when I get my killer instinct or the unhooking prompt, I know that somebody is there. I switch back to Victor quickly and charge up pounce. I usually try to park Victor somewhere where I have an unobstructed pounce to the base of the hook since lots of people will simply try to stop and heal as soon as they get the other survivor off. Either, I land Victor on the rescuer or down them if they were already injured (and they're conveniently right next to a hook). Then, I can even chase the survivor that got off the hook and down them again. Either way, I get a ton out of the exchange and I didn't lose any pressure on generators.
Yes but the cost of this is that the killer has to play as Victor the entire time. Like that's exactly what you shouldn't do if there was no cue they swapped. It's not like she can do this for free, eventually she will have to come back to Charlotte. And you can go do another gen too, not sure how this is different from a normal killer camping a gen. Just let it go if Charlotte does this.
Also big balls play would be to gen tap anyway so she can't grab.
I mean it's not hard to play around. Are people THAT scared of another stand still mindgame? It's not even a big deal on Spirit unless you play stupid, which is what doing the gen while Charlotte is right there would be as well. Just like, don't be stupid and it's not a problem.
Also transition time is fine, I'm talking specifically about the visual/audio cue that they swapped. The only cue should be when the killer moves and/or when the TR comes back.
I disagree.
The twins have map control, and the cues are for balance.
It would add to the mind game, but there's an iri for that.
I feel they would be a little too strong because you could gen camp with charley even easier. The cues are definitely needed to know when you can try for that gen and when you need to start running. Otherwise you'd get grabbed 99% time.
I honestly don't understand how 2 of you now have said you'd get grabbed off a gen easily. Why are you on the gen in her face? Just don't do the gen if the killer parks Charlotte right there. Or gen tap to avoid being grabbed.
The way you beat a mindgame 100% is to not participate in the mind game. Leave a gen go if she does this, eventually she will be forced to switch back. You give her map pressure by returning to the gen. If you go to another gen she gets punished for doing this.
Also keep in mind I never said anything about transition time. It would work for killer the same as now, meaning it would take a moment before they could even attempt to grab you.
What if she is camping mid gen?
What if she is camping the exit door?
I feel the cues are needed for balance for other reasons too.
If I place Victor by a hook, THEN I hook a player by Victor, he becomes a camping beacon. But, he has a timer before he expires and skilled survivors must wait for that expire cue to know when the hook is clear.
His expire timer is shorter than 1 hook state, preventing him from being too strong a camper.
Otherwise, to keep Victor by hook, you HAVE to control him, which is equivalent to face camping.
The twins have a huge strength, and it's map control, yet talk about removing the cues will only make that map control even more powerful.
Too powerful. Imo
Imagine other killers losing their cues.
Demi, nurse, oni, almost every killer would have a buff if that were the case.
That being said, you could still probably fake some people out with insidious. I'm definitely gonna try.
Well she shouldn't be able to be parked right in front of an exit gate to block it, but yea if she does this then just go for the other gate. She'd have to come after you as Victor and you can still open the gate with him on you.
You don't need the cues as much as you think. Again there would still be a delay from when they take control, so as long as the killer has to be a certain distance from objects it would be fine.
As far as Victor camping hooks, I saw Coconut doing this and a simple solution would be to have Victor, uh, die off faster in range of a hooked survivor. Then doing this is less a viable option and one or the other has to be a certain distance at all times.
It's not comparable, there is still a cue when Victor is released, there is still a cue when he dies. The only cue you don't have now is when they switch, which leads to more interesting and dynamic gameplay. Whereas removing cues from other killer powers arbitrarily wouldn't actually make things more interesting or dynamic, just frustrating.
I'll concede that the lack of cues would open up mind games, but killers NEED cues otherwise they become too powerful.
And other than the sound cue she just looks at the floor, you could just run insidious and fool unsuspecting survivors into your trap.
Even with the cue, insidious mind game sounds like it's still viable.
I get that point, but the twins can also be frustrating to survivors as is.
Maybe add-ons that remove cues would be a nice middle ground.
"And other than the sound cue she just looks at the floor, you could just run insidious and fool unsuspecting survivors into your trap."
Yes exactly. But this isn't going to work on a not stupid survivor is what I'm saying. You'd have to be very smart with how you use it to get a smart survivor.
I just think it should be base kit. It's not that huge of a change and would make them a better killer against stronger survivors.
The killer isn't really done so, maybe it will become base kit. (I doubt it)
I personally, after suffering the learning curve, really REALLY like the twins as is.
I agree. It’s a small concession for how much power they already have. Once Victor’s locker block, and the exit gate entity blocker extension goes live, they’re going to be in a massively strong spot.
Even being kidnapped for 45 seconds isn’t anywhere near as bad as I presumed it was going to be.
You have it backwards. By having the cue it's easier for SWF to track where the killer is. They would just call out when they see the cue and know exactly when the killer switches places. But without the cue, even SWF can't be sure if the Victor they see is occupied or not, so they hesitate to just run up and kick him. You'd have to wait for the callout "I'm being chased by Victor/Charlotte" to know. Without the cue there is more ambiguity in the switch and SWF have to be more on top of their callouts than if the cue existed.
"Victor already glows red when he's not being controlled"
This goes with the cues I'm talking about. Such a cue shouldn't exist because even SWF has to second guess if the killer is or is not occupying Victor.
"That increases the gap between SWF and solo."
The gap exists between SWF and solo BECAUSE of the cues though.
If the cues didn't exist then it would be harder for SWF to know when the killer switches. It's always going to be more difficult to know this as a solo whether the cue exists or not. So if it's going to be hard for solo no matter what it makes sense to take away info that makes SWF stronger, which means removing certain cues.
"If the cues didn't exist it would be harder for SWF to know things, but they still get to figure out what's going on by crowdsourcing information."
Yes exactly. Which is why you don't want the cues so that it is harder to share that information. Denying SWF information is how you make them weaker which then leads to more mistakes on their end. Any type of information you give to solo survivors is greatly enhanced by being in an SWF.
"It is easy to give all players information, but it is not feasible to deprive SWF of information without depriving solo queue of even more information."
This is actually exactly what you do. Anything you do to make solo survivors stronger is only going to be enhanced further by being in a SWF. It makes more sense to give LESS information then because you're not going to ever bring solo survivors up to SWF. Therefore the reasonable solution is to bring SWF down as close to solo survivors as you can, and you do this by making it harder to gain information.
Take Kindred as an example. Great solo survivor perk because of the information it provides, but now in a SWF they become even more efficient at callouts/plays. You get hooked, the entire squad can see each other and it's a lot easier to coordinate when you can see the other survivors. It also gives a ton of information about the killer position/heading. Only 1 person in a groups needs to use it, now basically everyone has it.
My point is that no matter how much information you give to solo survivors, SWF is always going to have a massive advantage. Giving out more information for free doesn't close the gap because SWF will be able to use that information much more effectively than a solo survivor. You need to take away from SWF to make them more comparable, to make them more like solo survivors. You do that by removing certain cues so that killers can more easily trick survivors, even if they are in a group.
EDIT: To provide another example, Spirit. One trick I will pull on survivors is to make it look like I'm chasing one while I'm actually going after another. I get a lot of gens grabs by purposely moving close enough so they hear my TR and then I phase to the gen and grab them (moonwalking if necessary to avoid Spine Chill). And you know what. IT WORKS. Very consistently. Why? Well first off I don't give away that I'm paying attention to the survivor on a gen. I will see them but make it look like I don't (or don't care). Second, I make the survivor I'm chasing give out bad info. They will say "she is phasing at me" when in actuality I'm not. Third and most importantly, I deny them information at every chance. I deny the guy on the gen any clue that I'm phasing by being in TR range. I deny the guy that thinks I'm chasing him information on what I plan to do by making it seem like a legit chase. Maybe I force them to drop a pallet, eat the stun then phase. 10/10 times they will think I'm coming for them. By constantly giving them bad info I mess up their communications and they make mistakes because no one really knows what's going on. It'd be the same thing with the Twins, only because of the cues that the killer swapped places it's super easy for them to share that information and now any surprise value I got is instantly lost. If instead they were DENIED the information then I can do janky ######### and get them to mess up and then snowball from that. Like solo survivors are already essentially denied this information unless they can directly see Char/Vic. You're never going to improve on that, so it'd make more sense to also deny this information to SWF whenever you can.
EDIT 2: Just to summarize simply... giving cues to the Twins helps solo survivors a tiny bit but helps SWF a whole lot. Removing cues hurts solo survivor a tiny bit but hurts SWF a whole lot. You want to bring SWF down, not try to push solo up.