The lesser know problem with DS
Note: IGNORE ALL OF WHAT IS SAID HERE AS A REVISION OF MY POINT IS BELOW.
I feel that there is another not widely known problem with DS that no one is talking about. Its the fact that DS is not a good anti tunnel perk. This is a problem because any suggestions that a person makes to change DS into an anti tunnel perk falls flat when you realize it doesn't do its job well.
The fact that a person has DS isn't a good deterrence for killers to tunnel. When its used on the killer they can still tunnel the person afterwards especially if there is nothing to stop them from doing so. A 5 second stun for the most isn't enough time for the survivor to get away before they are back on their trail to kill them. With this problem any attempt to make it more of a anti tunnel perk will fail until this issue is also addressed and resolved.
Comments
If anything it encourages tunneling. Once a killer gets hit by DS they're going to want to finish the job. Most people hate getting hit by it and that survivor no longer has a get out of jail free card.
Basicly, lol. I remember watching an Ohtofu vid where someone was being dumb and forced a DS after their first hook. Tofu started going after 1 of the 2 other survivors he had spotted by the hook, but the freshly hooked guy still wouldnt do anything but hug a locker. Tofu went ahead and ate the DS, then openly tunneled the guy off his 2nd hook because he KNEW DS was no longer an issue for that guy.
DS is a great anti tunnel perk wdym. If a killer tunnels you he has to either wait 60 seconds each time you get unhooked, on top of any chases you put up, or eat the DS to basically give you another life.
I've wanted to nerf DS's anti tunnel ability, cause when you're at 1 gen left (because maps and gen speeds are still absurd), you basically have no option but to get someone out of the game quickly by camping or tunneling. Of which DS screws you over and camping isn't that effective unless the survivors screw up.
Making DS better at anti tunnel buffs SWF SWAT teams, which is something you do NOT want to do.
That's different. I do the same thing as killer. I won't tunnel survivors under almost any other circumstances, but if you jump into a locker and intentionally waste my time and force me to disarm your anti-tunnel perk, I'm going to consider it open season on targeting you. If you just run away I'll chase the teammate who unhooked you 100% of the time and you can save your DS for later when it might be useful (it won't, but at least you won't have a target on your back).
It's the difference between people bringing DS as insurance against tunneling killers and people who use DS as 60 seconds of invulnerability in which they can pester the killer.
I <3 Ohtofu, but check out this hilarious Farmerjohn video to see exactly what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pci0ngf8ys0
3 SWF survivors playing Second Chance Perks: The Musical, but doing it all wrong and getting hard countered.
The point of my post was just to point out that forcing a killer to eat DS can often be what causes the killer to tunnel you in the future. In my example, Tofu wouldve probably slugged the survivor if he managed to down them after their 2nd hook, but because he KNEW they no longer had DS... there was no longer a reason for him to do so other than if your just trying to be nice. Frankly, if someone is forcing a DS on me by hoping in a locker rather than TRYING to run away... That politeness goes away once they come off their next hook.
Well then we are in agreement my friend. I guess I misunderstood. The ultimate moral of this story is that it's not about the perks; it's about the playstyle.
Do check out the Farmerjohn video though if you have a few minutes to spare. It's perhaps the most potent and hilarious example I've ever seen of a bully squad failing by every measure.
I'm Talking about the cases in which its used and doesn't doo much. It not a good anti tunnel perk because after its used the killer has nothing to stop them from tunneling you. Which is not fair and cause people to use it offensively.
Ive seen alot of his videos, but none recently. I mostly watch Otzdarva, Tofu or Fungoose.
When its used offensely is typically when people dont get much out of it. Often times a killer will just slug you out of the fear you MIGHT have DS, giving you some protection both after your first and 2nd hooks without even actually having to use it. If you FORCE the DS (or use it offensely as you put it), the killer no longer has any reason to avoid tunneling you for the rest of the match and will do more than just slug you if they down ya after your next unhook.
Still its unfair that after I used DS on a tunneling killer and after their stun was over they still proceeded to tunnel me. There isn't enough time to get away safely, which is why I say its not a good anti tunnel perk.
I disagree. Simply put, if it wasn't as effective as it is it wouldn't be anywhere nearly as widely used as it is, nobody denies it's a meta perk and some survivors even go so far as to assert that DS is absolutely "necessary" to run.
If it didn't do it's job well, or at least well enough then none of this would be true, but it is true and I hardly think that's really even something can argue about. It's true that DS is meta, and it's true that it's a mainstay survivor perk that never leaves some players loadouts because it is deemed "necessary".
The argument that "it only works once, therefore it's not as good as anyone says it is" is something the community has already covered like a well oiled machine. It simply does not hold up, neither on its own, and it especially doesn't hold up when you factor SWF into the mix which presents a whole new set of factors into the mix that make it even worse.
"The lesser known problem with DS" is really just a roundabout way of claiming DS isn't a good perk, and therefore it shouldn't be nerfed or changed. Which again, I'll restate, the changes (unbiased) people are asking for is a true rework, one that cements DS's role as an anti-tunnel perk and improves upon it in such a way that it more accurately fulfills that role but in exchange ONLY that role and absolutely nothing more and nothing less. In more clear terms: DS should get something, it should be made better, in exchange for the restrictions that are often discussed in many circles of the community in regards to DS. I myself alongside many others have suggested that the skillcheck difficulty could be reduced, the timer could be extended to be longer, or even that the timer stops while you are being chased.
DS has a purpose, regardless of the "ambiguity" that certain individuals claim it goes about accomplishing that purpose, it's an anti-tunnel perk, let it be an anti-tunnel perk, but nothing more. The changes most reasonable people seek in regards to DS are entirely warranted and for a long time now at that.
It’s not a lesser known problem at all.
If anything, like myself, most experienced killers will want to remove DS from every survivor as early in the trial as possible, which subsequently cannot be done without tunnelling.
Ironically, when there is no Obsession I relax more and DON’T tunnel.
It’s a conundrum because I know many killers will instead ruthlessly tunnel when there is no Obsession, even though it’s completely unnecessary to win.
The perk existing is a deterant of tunneling, and just because you have it equiped doesnt mean you should be immortal or something. What more would you have this perk do?
My argument isn't that its used once and not effective. My argument is that after it has been used thr killer can still immediately tunnel you after their stun is over. Quite simply the stun is not enough time for the killer to follow your trail again tunnel you. Which is why I say it's not a very good anti tunneling perk.
I don't want the perk to do much. I feel that the perk has not done its job of an anti-tunnel perk if the killer literally after the stun can follow your trail to chase and down you to take you out the game. The stun is often time not enough time to get away safely.
So what would you suggest?
Can anyone inform me if what I'm saying is confusing, I feel people aren't getting my point
Well i would suggest that during the stun the survivor leaves not pools of blood or scratch marks so that they could get away and recover. Isn’t that reasonable?
Make no mistake im all for changes to the perk to make it a better anti-tunnel perk. I agree that it can be too powerful l, but what im saying is that before something can be done about it we have to make it a better anti tunneling perk, which in my opinion its not.
Right. Why stop at 5 seconds? If DS is activated then the Killer should be forced to stand a corner of the map while facing the wall for the entirety of the match so that he can think about what he has done wrong. How dare a Killer even think to pick up a survivor who might have DS (never mind that there is no way of knowing if you are picking up someone who has DS active outside of shear memory; no hook stage indicator for unhooked survivors. And god help you if the survivors have similar names / cosmetics).
You missed my point. Which is ok because I don't think i did a good job at explaining it. See the other comments with other people for a better explanation.
Before you write off what I am going to say here me out first before. I am not arguing against changes to DS. Changes are needed to make it fair. My argument is that any changes to make DS in a anti tunnel perks will not be good because its not a good one to begin with. Literally the second after the stun is over the killer can follow your trail and proceed to tunnel you, thus DS has failed at its job of being an anti-tunnel perk and before any changes can made for it this problem has to also be fixed.
Please do NOT misinterpreted anything that I am saying here please. It makes you look ridiculous.
Hey I also remember watching a ToFu video where an unhooked Laurie bodyblocked for the unhooker with BT then did the big strike. I died laughing when ToFu downed her again then tunneled her after getting unhooked. He was like "shouldn't have wasted your DS."
Yeah, I do that all the time. Force a DS? Well, it would have come in handy later, wouldn't it... Doesn't help that I am way to influenced by Tofu and found a lovely use for all my mori's, too.
Make the stun 10 seconds so the survivor can run away.
No that's to much for the killer. I suggest just making it so that the survivor leaves no scratch marks or blood for the 5 seconds