Balance Changes | No Mither, Dying State, & Monstrous Sacrifice
Prologue
Welcome to the thread series where I make changes to a few perks and see how much spotlight they get from the community. 😁
Here's my previous thread: Give it a look and comment if you'd like! 😊
@NMCKE said:
Prologue
Starting a thread series where I make changes to a few perks and see how much spotlight they get from the community. 😁
Cruel Limits
When a generator is completed, after 5 seconds, all vault locations and breakable walls are blocked by the Entity.
If a survivor drops a pallet, all blocked locations within 48/40/32 meters to that pallet are freed from the Entity.
Only the killer can bypass the blocked locations, and the auras of all blocked objects are revealed to the killer.
Blood Hound
Attacking a survivor with a basic attack will inflict the Hemorrhage status effect until the survivor either heals or is hooked.
Attacking a survivor with a basic attack will reveal the auras of all injured survivors for 10 seconds.
This perk has a cool-down of 40/50/60 seconds.
Hemorrhage
Instead of increasing the frequency a survivor leaves a blood trail.
Hemorrhage will now make blood trails easier to see and expire slower than normal, depending on the status tier.
Epilogue
This is the part where I ask you to give me feedback! 😁
No Mither
Staying injured gives you incredible strength:
- 60 Seconds: Grunts of Pain caused by injuries are silenced.
- 90 Seconds: You won't leave trails of blood.
- 120 Seconds: Survivors, including yourself, can heal you 50%/75%/100% faster than normal.
Dying State
Recovering is an automatic action when you are motionless.
If you can fully recover with Unbreakable, press the active ability button while at maximum recovery progress to transition to the injured state.
Monstrous Sacrifice
After hooking a survivor, the Entity blocks the hooked survivor for 20/25/30 seconds. During that time, the hooked survivor's sacrifice timer remains paused and cannot be saved.
Epilogue
This is the part where I ask you to give me feedback! 😁
Comments
You sure isn't Monstrous Shrine?
Overall, i like your ideas, no mither's timer should be a bit longer i think. You still start the game injured and broken? Or the perk will activate only when you get hit? If you start the game injured, the timer should be like 120 for the first "power", 180 and 240. And the Iron will should be the last one imo, it's a pretty powerful abilty. No leaving blood trails being the first one and the heal booster being the second. Some tweaks to the healing percents tho, maybe 35-50-65? 100% it's a bit too much
The no mother one Is 3 perks rolled into one..that's kinda redic..
I know, I changed Monstrous Shrine's name because the perk name wouldn't make sense with what it does anymore. 😁
The perk doesn't activate while healthy, only when you're injured (you start the Trial healthy).
You're implying NM is OP because it has multiple perks built into it. However, there's a condition, you have to be injured and must wait out the buildup time. After that, you need to stay injured to gain value from it — by that time, most survivors would had healed or probably would've been caught.
High risk, good reward. 😁
So instead of the "hard mode" perk we get a high risk high reward perk... Just a question - that 120 second reward means like a whole map buff right? (kinda like Up The Ante?) Oh also does that count for Self Care healing?
Like the dying state change.
But me personally can't find a use for Monstrous Sacrifice... Could you enligten me, please?
So essentially a survivor hex..minus having the perk taken away from you and therefore has no realistic downside ? Seems unfair to me..its a neat idea, just not a fair one
Yikes, I see what you mean, I meant the healing buff only affect survivors who heal you (including yourself with SC or Med-Kits). I'll go ahead and fix the grammatical mistake, sorry about that! 🙂
Happy to see we agree on the Dying State changes! 👉👉
Monstrous Sacrifice allows you to stack pressure and prevent sneaky saves. Like if a survivor is positioned near the hook, you as the killer don't have to search the area and can move on to the next survivor. Meanwhile, the survivor who's waiting is wasting time doing nothing.
If you catch another survivor, you could quickly dart back to the hook just before the Entity removes the blockade and prevent an unhook.
Obviously, my suggestion isn't perfect, but it's better than keeping Monstrous Shine basement related and have a weak effect that you can't really increase due to how unstable the perk is to Buff. 😁
@immortalls96, I made a grammar mistake which made my suggestion seem more powerful than it should be. Please review my NM suggestion again since I have fixed the grammar mistake.
Not quite as crazy I suppose..still it burns me that a perk with that many benefits on killer would be made a crappy hex on the spot
I don't like the Dying state change. Sounds like a "I went over to them and they didn't heal and that frustrates me" change. And you need to come with a Buckle Up change when you change this mechanic.
Also heavily dislike the Monstrous thing. That actually forces survivors to genrush. The 20-30 seconds is normally the time you can sit on gens before you even have to think about unhooking, this just doesn't happen most of the time because many survivors are unhook greedy. With that perk it extends the time to 60 seconds and even helps out by blocking the entity progress. Also fluffwise it doesn't make sense that the Entity blocks itself. It wants the sacrifice, so why slow it down? Third, it would be boring for hooked survivors.
Just keep monstrous shrine as it is and make it that the survivor screams on hook every 5 seconds. Would make it a great meme perk
No Mither sounds good, although I guess many (or some) people would miss the original one. I guess the bonus is reverted once you are healed? Otherwise this would become a perk making people useless. Like once escaped or unhooked, crouch around the corner for the next 2 minutes until you get your bonus and then get back into action with a super buff.
I really like the No Mither change, I also like the auto recover option, but I'm not the biggest fan of the Monstrous Shrine change tbh, maybe Monstrous Shrine could give a Survivor some debuffs after unhooking? Maybe decreased action speeds until healed or something like that.
I don't like the Dying state change. Sounds like a "I went over to them and they didn't heal and that frustrates me" change. And you need to come with a Buckle Up change when you change this mechanic.
Yes, that's correct, that's why I'm giving constructive feedback. Many survivors, including myself, get the short end of the stick because dying survivors don't bother to recover.
Until you can give me a valid reason why you shouldn't recover 95% when you're given the opportunity to, then I believe this change is fair.
Otherwise, we can agree to disagree.
Also heavily dislike the Monstrous thing. That actually forces survivors to genrush. The 20-30 seconds is normally the time you can sit on gens before you even have to think about unhooking, this just doesn't happen most of the time because many survivors are unhook greedy. With that perk it extends the time to 60 seconds and even helps out by blocking the entity progress. Also fluffwise it doesn't make sense that the Entity blocks itself. It wants the sacrifice, so why slow it down? Third, it would be boring for hooked survivors.
This perk can be useful if survivors are nearby the hook, thinking they can sneak a saved behind your back.
You can also stack pressure because you have a survivor that needs to be saved after the Entity frees the hooked survivor. If you're fast enough, you can potentially get back to the hook before the previous hooked survivor is saved.
Also, by lore, the Entity is food aggressive — it won't let a survivor touch its dinner.
No Mither sounds good, although I guess many (or some) people would miss the original one. I guess the bonus is reverted once you are healed? Otherwise this would become a perk making people useless. Like once escaped or unhooked, crouch around the corner for the next 2 minutes until you get your bonus and then get back into action with a super buff.
The bonus reverts when you're no longer injured, which means survivors could hide in a corner until the bonus comes. However, you likely won't be able to afford to do that when the killer is hooking survivors and generators need to be completed. Could be pulled off by a SWF, but at that point, it's not the park's fault. 😁
The No Mither one would make more sense if instead of healing yourself the healing speed was for you and you could heal others faster. I mean if it was a buff for being injured why would you want to be healed then?
I would not mind stating hurt if I could heal others faster and all the extra stuff.
1) Yes, then we disagree :) There are too many things in the game that simply rely on how people play, and you cannot fix kobe attempts in front of your nose, giving up struggle, or wiggling while trying to Breakout and taking hits, non recovering survivors, tbaggin and everything else on the list of "Why do people...". On the one side, I think it is not worth wasting development time on that as it is simply too much for non game breaking 'issues', on the other side, people will always find playstyles that other people dislike. Nice change by basic idea, but I simply dislike "let's disallow people to behave in a way I don't like". On the long run it is simply a never reachable goal.
Btw you didn't respond to the Buckle Up. That change makes 50% of Buckle Up pretty usesless. And while you try to improve perks and mechanics with Buckle Up being a pretty bad perk already, I would expect Buckle Up to be in the same 'episode' as your Dying State change ;)
2) This works just once, until survivors know that you have the perk. And after that, the effect that I described will happen. And as this would be bad for killers, I guess noone would run it. It would need a longer timer like 45-60 seconds to secure that you can get 2 people on hook, from hook A to hook B within 30 seconds would probably just be possible with a BBQ Billy or something like that. In any case, survivors being bored on the hook is still something people might cry about.
I might be wrong, but one thing I mentioned in other threads is, that camping is a thing as most killers can be sure that there are almost always survivors lurking for the insta unhook. Camping gets rewarded so much by many survivors. With the Ruin change, the first few weeks I had no problem. The first gen was always lost quickly, after that the game starts rolling and you still had all chances to win. But with ongoing weeks, the Ruin change somehow taught survivors the value of pressuring gens. I'm pretty sure this perk will also teach survivors to make more use of the time they have before the next hook state activates. And as killer I wouldn't push survivors to do the right thing.
EDIT: Think of Camaraderie, this perk has basically the same effect without a survivor needed around.
3) No Mither is fine then. I was just worried about another Urban Evasion promoting, with No Mither people sitting in the corner for 2 minutes to get Iron Will, Lucky Break and We'll make it for the rest of the game, first thing getting healed of course, to become the UBER David and basically secure your own survival :)
@Deadeye Why would it make it useless? It still does it job even with this change. It does need a buff (like healing survivors in dying state is faster) but their idea doesn't make it useless.
EDIT: Think of Camaraderie, this perk has basically the same effect without a survivor needed around.
Also not really. While Camaraderie gives you more time to unhook, this prevents unhook. And actually you have no idea how many survivors are near for almost instant unhook. And yes it would be counterplayed after 1-2 uses but most perks do anyways no?
What I was talking about is the extra time you get on the hook. That basically allows that survivors don't come too late, when they spent too much time on gens or in chases. Your perk also gives survivors just extra time. It only makes sense when you manage to get someone else hooked during the time the first one is still blocked. Otherwise survivors can adapt and make even more use of the perk, by not being forced off gens or heals to get the unhook done.
The one half of Buckle Up is the info how far someone is recovered, which is a pretty important information when you try to heal someone mid- or near a chase. If you see a white aura, you don't have to get into danger, you stay away. With the change, it is not that hard to guess and see if the aura didn't move for at least 10-15 seconds. At least I would regard the aura effect as redundant on this perk.
Yes, then we disagree :) There are too many things in the game that simply rely on how people play, and you cannot fix kobe attempts in front of your nose, giving up struggle, or wiggling while trying to Breakout and taking hits, non recovering survivors, tbaggin and everything else on the list of "Why do people...". On the one side, I think it is not worth wasting development time on that as it is simply too much for non game breaking 'issues', on the other side, people will always find playstyles that other people dislike. Nice change by basic idea, but I simply dislike "let's disallow people to behave in a way I don't like". On the long run it is simply a never reachable goal.
Someone unhooking themselves doesn't throw the game.
Giving up struggle can be use strategically to give hatch.
Bodyblocking is used strategically to buy the carried survivor time to escape.
Tbagging is a grey area, but can be used to bait killers into chases or focus their attention to you.
However, remaining at 0% recovery when you could've recovered has no strategy behind it. You're just throwing the game and causing your teammates to waste more resources on something that should've been common sense really. This is comparable to the struggle phase change people want, which is having the action automatic and having a button to ######### whenever you want.
Yes, people can crawl around to prevent recovering, but this change can help veterans not suffer as much when they are playing with teammates who don't know how to press "recover" when they get the chance to.
Btw you didn't respond to the Buckle Up. That change makes 50% of Buckle Up pretty usesless. And while you try to improve perks and mechanics with Buckle Up being a pretty bad perk already, I would expect Buckle Up to be in the same 'episode' as your Dying State change ;)
I like to keep things simple (people don't like long threads), but if you want, you can suggest a change since it's related to my topic. 😁
I don't think Buckle Up is useless, it will still tell you when the survivor is ready to be picked up. However, I wouldn't mind the perk getting an additional effect to compensate.
This works just once, until survivors know that you have the perk. And after that, the effect that I described will happen. And as this would be bad for killers, I guess noone would run it. It would need a longer timer like 45-60 seconds to secure that you can get 2 people on hook, from hook A to hook B within 30 seconds would probably just be possible with a BBQ Billy or something like that. In any case, survivors being bored on the hook is still something people might cry about.
I might be wrong, but one thing I mentioned in other threads is, that camping is a thing as most killers can be sure that there are almost always survivors lurking for the insta unhook. Camping gets rewarded so much by many survivors. With the Ruin change, the first few weeks I had no problem. The first gen was always lost quickly, after that the game starts rolling and you still had all chances to win. But with ongoing weeks, the Ruin change somehow taught survivors the value of pressuring gens. I'm pretty sure this perk will also teach survivors to make more use of the time they have before the next hook state activates. And as killer I wouldn't push survivors to do the right thing.
EDIT: Think of Camaraderie, this perk has basically the same effect without a survivor needed around.
You just gave me an idea to improve the perk, thanks for mentioning Camaraderie because it helped me brainstorm a better solution for reworking Monstrous Shrine.
Monstrous Sacrifice
When a survivor is within 8 meters to a hooked survivor, the Entity gets food aggressive and blocks the hooked survivor for 10/15/20 seconds.
While the hooked survivor is blocked by the Entity, they cannot be saved and the hook timer remains paused.
No Mither is fine then. I was just worried about another Urban Evasion promoting, with No Mither people sitting in the corner for 2 minutes to get Iron Will, Lucky Break and We'll make it for the rest of the game, first thing getting healed of course, to become the UBER David and basically secure your own survival :)
Technically they could, but it would only be plausible in a SWF. Solo Queue, you're better off winning the lottery than to get people to do that with you. 😁
No Mither is fine as it is. Just remove injured music and give it some kind of BP earnings booster to all categories similar to Distressing.
Sorry but no to Monstrous Shrine too. It needs a rework but that is just kind dumb honestly. I saw someone mention a while ago it should spawn both basements which I think is a good idea. I would also add in a repair debuff for each survivor hooked in the basement. That would make it an actual viable perk.
The body block was referring to people NOT struggling in the killer's grasp. You would want that to be automatic as well. And I don't want to list the whole "Why do people..." list, this was just a bunch of examples. You will never get the game into a state where people just can do stuff that makes sense. Some people just play against the team on purpose. That's why I said it will be too much effort to get close but never reach that goal. And I don't think people don't know how to recover, at least you will not be matched together with them.
That monstrous shrine is actually a good version. Because if forces survivors off gens even sooner because they gotta make sure that it triggers early enough to have enough time afterwards to get the unhook in time. And it will tell the killer immediately about hook camping survivors.
I was just thinking about if it promotes camping because the killer gets a notification. But it might work
I seriously love your idea for no mither. I could very well see that idea becoming a new perk of it's own, if the devs want to keep no mither, as well.
No Mither is fine as it is. Just remove injured music and give it some kind of BP earnings booster to all categories similar to Distressing.
Your idea would work perfectly, but I feel like that would be kinda boring to slap on a BP bonus and call it a day. To be clear, I don't disagree with your NM suggestion; I just feel like adding a multiplier is just lazy.
However, if the developers can't afford to waste too much time on NM, then I wouldn't care — at least we got something.
Sorry but no to Monstrous Shrine too. It needs a rework but that is just kind dumb honestly. I saw someone mention a while ago it should spawn both basements which I think is a good idea. I would also add in a repair debuff for each survivor hooked in the basement. That would make it an actual viable perk.
Well, I'm not completely dumb, I did come up with a better version in a previous comment thanks to @Deadeye:
Monstrous Sacrifice
When a survivor is within 8 meters to a hooked survivor, the Entity gets food aggressive and blocks the hooked survivor for 10/15/20 seconds.
While the hooked survivor is blocked by the Entity, they cannot be saved and the hook timer remains paused.
It basically prevents hook rushing, but my only concern is encouraging camping. I know camping is fair game, but I do know the community doesn't like perks that encourage boring game, such as the pre-rework Dying Light. Perhaps it can't be used when the hooked survivor been on the hook for a while?
Here's another version:
Monstrous Sacrifice
When a survivor attempts to save a hooked survivor, if the hooked has been hooked by the killer within the last 20 seconds, the Entity gets food aggressive and blocks the hooked survivor for 20 seconds.
While the hooked survivor is blocked by the Entity, they cannot be saved and the sacrifice timer expires at 30%/40%/50% the speed.
Auras of blocked hooked survivors are shown to you in white.
This would be better because it doesn't encourage camping and is a lot more useful than the previous version.
Anyways, if you don't like my idea, you idea would be fine, but I can see defensive killers really getting a lot of snowball from this. Let's just say I agree with your idea, but it would need to be tested for me to know for sure if this would be something healthy for the game. 😄
The body block was referring to people NOT struggling in the killer's grasp. You would want that to be automatic as well. And I don't want to list the whole "Why do people..." list, this was just a bunch of examples. You will never get the game into a state where people just can do stuff that makes sense. Some people just play against the team on purpose. That's why I said it will be too much effort to get close but never reach that goal. And I don't think people don't know how to recover, at least you will not be matched together with them.
I understand the struggling part, thank you.
Anyways, again, we should try to automate some things that would have more positives than negatives. Of course for certain things like struggling on the hook, we can have a button to stop struggling since there's sometimes a valid reason why you would want to ######### on the hook.
However, you mentioned we shouldn't try because we will never stop unwanted gameplay and that's a negative way to view things. It's not about stopping unwanted gameplay, we want to
reduceit as much as possible. If I was to travel to BHVR studios and asked why the BHVR team added a reporting system, I can guarantee you they will say toreduceunwanted toxic behavior (breaking rules). At the end of the day, if it makes the gaming experience better — it's all worth it. 😁Sure, the game should become better in any way. Question is about the benefit, criticality and cost of changes. And I think people not recovering is not one of the worst things in game. Game breaking or frequently occuring things are on the top list. That's why I got the impression that auto recover is a waste of time. If it is a 5 min change on dev side, it might be worth it of course. In the first step it is simly something that doesn't bother me at all.
The developers don't solely focus on bug fixes, if they did — we wouldn't have new content added to the game.
Just saying if they have some spare time, why not? It makes veterans suffer just a little less than they would normally in solo queue. 😄
Sure they are. And they need half a year to fix the lightburn bug on Wraith. Nurse is buggy since rework and just recently fixed that you cannot blink through the temple. And sound bugs making Spirit a horrible experience most of the time is still a thing. "if they have some spare time" you need to put the IF with capital letters, and that's my whole point on changes like this. I'd prefer the mentioned bugs to be fixed rather than having people playing against me anyway forced to recover
But that's getting offtopic :)
Sure they are. And they need half a year to fix the lightburn bug on Wraith. Nurse is buggy since rework and just recently fixed that you cannot blink through the temple. And sound bugs making Spirit a horrible experience most of the time is still a thing. "if they have some spare time" you need to put the IF with capital letters, and that's my whole point on changes like this. I'd prefer the mentioned bugs to be fixed rather than having people playing against me anyway forced to recover
You're not getting the point; the developers do more than just "fix bugs".
They release content as well, so that the game remains fresh and if they have spare time, I think they can make this change.
Honestly, No Mither will never get reworked. And, honestly, thats fine. Remember why they brought the old Scrapped Tape back completely unchanged? Because it had "cult following". No Mither is in the same boat, as a large portion of people (way more than the supposed "Scrapped Tape cult") like it how it currently is (other than a few needed QoL changes).
...That is, unless the reason for Scrapped Tape returning was just lazy development and covered it up with an excuse... :^)
Leaving that aside, I like your concept of the perk, but only for a brand new perk. Call it Yes Mither and strap it to the next Survivor.
As for dying state, meh, not worth the trouble honestly. Would rather they fixed struggling on the hook first and foremost.
Monstrous Sacrifice seems really meh... Id rather go for the idea of a debuff or buff for having someone hooked (whether in the basement or not depending on the strength of the effect). Also, Monstrous Shrine still sounds better.
Then you don't get my point, if they have spare time they should fix more bugs. They said they have separate teams doing content, cosmetics and other stuff, but I'm not sure if it is really different teams that do changes on existing mechanics and bugfixes, as it is kind of the same area