The Gap Between Avg. & Pro Survivors is Too Big!
EDIT: TLDR Version is sort of the first chunk, after that it's just details to explain my reasoning behind what I said. Also, my 3rd post in the comments on this Thread gives an exact example of the issue to help clearly show what I am referring to. Sorry for the long post, but I do believe it makes some valuable points worth looking over as far as game-balance issues go. -
I see a flux of posts today about people bringing up "stats" and 50/50 Win/Kill Ratio, or saying Killer's all want a 4K, etc..
I believe that these issues are not the underlying problem, I believe that these issues exist because of the underlying problem.
This game has an enormous skill cap, between Map Knowledge, Pallet Locations Knowledge, Pallet Loop Knowledge, Window Loop Knowledge, the ability to actually execute these things, how to work together as a Team for Survivors, when to get off a gen, go for unhooks, stay on gens, etc. etc..
That's part of the reason the game is great and keeps people coming back. However this creates a very very difficult problem for balancing. I am going to Copy/Paste a post I made in response to some of the other Threads that are speaking of this issue to explain myself, but the bottom line is this..
Killer's really honestly do have it too easy against Survivors that are not "Pro" it is true. Something should be done to make it easier for "newer survivors" to escape "average skilled killers" the balance is not there..HOWEVER, at the SAME TIME.. Survivors that are "Pro" and once you get into the Red Rank Survivors, that know exactly what they are doing, and work well with their teammates even in Solo Q, not to mention SWF with comms... all of the sudden Killer's begin to feel EXTREMELY weak and do not have enough tools to deal with these Survivors. They really don't! Which means that in the end Survivors actually do have the upper hand against Killers, but only once you get to a higher skill cap. Until then its the other way around... this is the true issue of balancing that keeps causing us more problems that needs to be looked at more in my opinion.. anyways here is my post about it in more detail:
"I don't think that the problem is Killer's wanting 4K, I personally don't care to get 4K as a Killer and this isn't the balance issue that we should be looking at, the issue which I explained in another similar thread just a moment ago is the following:
(One thing I will add is I have heard before from Killers at Red Ranks that it is extremely difficult to pip without getting 3-4K, I cannot speak to this because I have never even gotten to Red Rank as Killer before, probably because 100% of my matches in Purple Ranks are against full on Red Rank Survivors) Please Continue Reading to understand the bigger issue at hand:
The statistics are an issue that causes this problem of perception.
Truth is, Killer's are really easy to get 4K's with throughout the "majority" of ranks. Probably all the way to about Rank 8 or so it is very easy to get 4K as a "decent" killer with practice.
But once you hit Rank 8, all you end up facing are Red Rank Survivors. Rank 8-5 every single one of my matches had at least 3 Red Rank 2-4 Survivors and most of them were in parties of 2 or more SWF.
Once this happens, and you start playing against those type of Survivors.. all of the sudden you start seeing constant 4 Survivors escaping.
The bottom line, and truth of the game, is that once you get into "Red Ranks" which is the "End-Game" of DBD technically, especially for a Killer who automatically pips whether they try to or not because of EASY 4K's in Ranks 20-8 .. all of the sudden the game becomes EXTREMELY Survivor sided.
I really honestly wish we could just play an "Unranked" game mode for fun whenever we don't feel like playing like a "sweaty try-hard" or want to practice a new Killer, but there is NO SUCH GAME MODE... which means, we go from literally having to not try AT ALL to get 4K against bad Survivors to all of the sudden having to constantly try our HARDEST and still get wrecked by Pro Survivors.
A lot of this has to do with skill and the extreme learning curve and skill cap of DBD unfortunately, I suppose for both Killer and Survivor.. but there just really isn't a good middle ground.
Green ranks you would think is the middle ground, but it is still too easy for Killer.
Purple ranks is way too hard because you are now facing Red Rank survivors. Red Rank survivors are actually too good at the game, and have too many tools to succeed in safe looping Killers and Gen rushing and working as a team.
This means that in the END. ULTIMATELY the BEST KILLER in the entire game vs. THE BEST 4 SWF SURVIVORS .. will never really have a chance, unless he just gets super lucky. At 100% optimal performance, Survivors will ALWAYS win, because its 4v1.
This is the problem for Killers, and EVERY single time there is a new Killer Nerf to help "New Survivors" because it is TRUE that it is WAY TOO EASY to KILL *Inexperienced* Survivors.. it just Widens the gap even more for Killers to do well against the "Pro Red Rank Survivors" that are already dominating them.
At least this has been my experience thus far, and in my opinion the biggest issue with balance in DBD. Somehow Balancing has to be done in ways that make it more challenging for the "Pro Survivors" and yet easier for the "New Survivors" in order to be fair for the Killer. But as of now any Survivor change or Killer change effects ALL Survivors ability at the same time.
And by the way, I am only a Green/Purple Rank Survivor and I think Killers are WAY too strong against me, but I also happen to know that I am NO WHERE NEAR as good of a player as Red Rank Survivors who can do ######### I have never been able to do before ever.. and maybe never will be able to.. which means yes I WANT Killers to be weaker against "newer survivors or less skilled survivors such as myself" but at the same time KILLERS NEED to be Stronger against the pro best of the best Survivors that can LITERALLY bully Killers all game long and escape with 4 without even seemingly trying. "
Comments
Haha wow, not a single comment? :(
And here I thought I was helping explain something valuable to people that a lot of misunderstandings are being had about.
Oh wells
Agreed.
I agree and tbh it's not easy to master this game, Survivor sided at least!
In September I convinced a good friend of mine to join the game. It took him 140 hours to get straight to rank 1 from not knowing a dime about the game, just by playing with me(a constant Red-Rank Survivor)...And devs complain it is too hard for new survivors, Jesus Christ, give me a break!
Another friend of mine, whom I convinced to join as well, managed to Rank 1 killer from Scratch in maybe 300-350 hours?He currently sits at Rank 2 survivor and soon will reach Rank 1 Surv as well...
It's ridiculous, after a couple of hundred of hours you can be at top on this game and just demolish new players, and Devs say the Ruin is too harsh for new players...*rolls in sarcasm*...
I think this is too long for a casual user to read, but I applaud the effort and dedication.
And this I'll just try to use as a more clear example of what I am trying to describe in my Original Post for people, as long as my thought process behind this is correct, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong:
Example:
They might say that Doctor (randomly picked Killer) has a Kill Rate Statistic of 60%
Okay, so you assume, wow, Doctor is in a great place because he gets over 50% of Kills per match.
However, 60% Kill-Rate throughout ALL RANKS is the Statistic (I Believe) therefore the breakdown is probably more closer to something like -
Doctor has Kill-Rate of 80% in Ranks 10-20 & Doctor has Kill-Rate of 20-30% in Ranks 1-10.
These are not accurate stats, just trying to explain something with examples.
The problem is that the game should be balanced in a way where the Doctor SHOULD have 50% Kill-Rate at ALL ranks.
Why is it so much easier playing Killer Rank 10-20 and SO much harder Rank 1-10? The game is obviously not balanced properly if that is the case.
Ideally, said Doctor should not have as high as 80% Kill-Rate at any Rank, and Should also still have a 50% Kill-Rate at Rank 1 and any other Red Rank as well.. I believe that this is not the case, and why the statistics are being misinterpreted.
Ideally, if the game was actually "Perfectly balanced" but no game truly is anyways so that's likely impossible, but all Killers on the list should have a 50% Kill-Rate at All Ranks including Rank 1, and similarly All Survivors should have a 50% Escape Rate at all Ranks.
Either way however, this should be THE MOST close to accurate at Rank 1 for BOTH Killer and Survivor because those are supposed to be the "Best Players" in the entire game, whereas it is reasonable to assume that players that are Rank 10-20 will make more mistakes and probably skew the stats one way or another.
So with the above taken into consideration, changes should be made to bring the Rank 1 stats closer to 50% all around for both parties, rather than focus on the Rank 10-20s as much as they have been.. which is okay, but again my issue I pointed out in my original post is every single change that helps Survivors against Killers Rank 10-20 will ALSO help Survivors in Rank 1-10 where Killers are actually struggling more than the Survivors are most of the time.
Agree. Thats why I made once a post that the game NEEDS a unranked and ranked mode. That would help out this game alot! You can apply special rules or make certain mechanics more easy at unranked and ranked should stay with the same rules as it is now. Only difference you will get rewared better at ranked and maybe some season rank reset rewards too?
You can basicly make that some perks are not allowed on unranked or make skillchecks easier there with bigger great skill check zones. YOu can have so many possibilites!
Perhaps you are right, but thank you very much for reading/commenting!
Thank you as well to @EmpireWinner & @TheOptimiser
Hopefully this will at least gain a little more traction now so people can see what I wrote! Cheers.
Sorry I've contradicted myself, I said it's not easy to master this game, then I said how easy it was for a couple of my friends, I meant the opposite, it's not hard to master this game, my bad..
At least for me personally the survivor side was not hard to master, the killer side on the other hand, I'm struggling massively out there, but at the moment I still lack some perks on most of them, which is understandable...
Well, to be honest after reading your post I was rather impressed by both your and your friends results.
I myself play Survivor and Killer both Equally, but usually by myself as a Solo Q player. (I think the fact that you helped your friends and probably often played together must really help) because I play with 0 communication in my matches with any of the teammates as I have, as a solo player.
So for me personally, I have over 450+ Hours played on DBD but yet I am FAR from mastering Survivor. I am certainly closer to mastering Killer. Neither were easy at first, I think both have challenges, the hardest challenge is farming the right Teachable Perks for what you want to play. But I still think that it is easier for Killers to play (at least on PC version) than it is for Survivors up until Purple Ranks.. then once you hit Purple Ranks it's much harder for a Killer than a Purple Rank Survivor.. I would actually argue that AS you increase Rank on Survivor the game just gets easier and easier because your teammates actually get better and better... where-as the complete opposite is correct for Killers and it is extremely noticeable and discouraging.
Regardless though, I think being able to "Loop" successfully, as some Survivors can do for minutes straight, often time giving enough time for 1-3 gens to be complete before a Killer can down the Survivor (because I have seen and faced survivors that were that good before, some even running no mither), is a truly very difficult skill to acquire for Survivors. I personally after having tried to learn how to do it effectively for so many hours, believe that it is a skill that I will never ever learn. I am simply unable to loop, if I am lucky I can get like 2-3 pallets before the Killer downs me after being spotted. Usually less, often times I am downed nearly instantly around a corner. And I swear that I'm not playing like a complete idiot either lol, it's just really hard and difficult to pull off.
My 3 RL Friends that began DBD with me all quit within the first two weeks of playing because it was so hard. I was literally the only one that stayed, because I was enjoying the challenge and thought it was going to get easier, which it barely did, it's still very difficult for me.
I would never leave un-ranked mode becasue I give two shits about rank. I play this game to have fun and as of late... it hasn't been.. again. Thus I have backed off and scan the forums for hope of improvement. I don't want/need a 4K, I want to feel like I am not wasting my time by turning the game on.
I want frustration in my life, I would take out student loans and attend math classes.
@ReviloDBD Yeah, maybe not all of us can adapt to this type of game, my friends did it very well, one of them is even better than me actually(the guy who reached rank 1 survivor in less than 150 hours), he has around 200 hours now, I have 3 times more the number of hours than him and he loops way better than me.
I think, with this game, if you're a beginner, it is advisable you have someone who knows the game decently and you can play with until you get the basic knowledge. I, for myself, can find myself in this situation. I've bought the game in 2016 fall and played the first 150 hours pretty much by myself. In these hours, I've never managed to get higher than rank 11 as Survivor and rank 12 as killer. I quit the game for around 2 years, then last summer I rejoined and started playing seriously. Reached Rank 8 as Survivor before my pro friend joined me in fall. Then things started to change. I sky-rocketed with him and reached Rank 1 in a couple of weeks at maximum. This was when I've had about 300 hours in game. I took a look on his profile, he started the game on 7th September 2019, on 28th September he unlocked the achievement for Rank 1 Survivor. Now we both have a solid foundation to remain at red ranks all the time and enjoy the matches out there.
With the killer, on the other side, it is a different story. You're alone, you're on your own, you and your only decisions matter. And there I have some issues, as often I do incorrect decision or I rush and make stupid mistakes...And also the game punishes you much more for the slightest mistake as a killer...
Teamwork is a key element here...At least for the beginners it should be. My advice: play as a survivor with a friend at the beginning, a few good amount of hours until you have the foundation to take the journey on your own and play matches alone, whether is killer or survivor...
And you need a lot of time, there's a lot of grinding in this game to obtain all the perks at lvl 3 on at least a survivor(one is enough) and the most of the killers, if not them all...
Well, I'm actually still very surprised that for this long there has literally been 0 reward given by "Ranked" play in DBD.
Almost every single game I have ever played, if not every single game, with Ranked play has had some kind of reward system in place. Whether that was credits to use for stuff like skins in game, or currency, or actual cosmetic rewards, etc. Something to prove once you've reached top Rank that you can show off for others that you've done that, and/or something you can use in game like currency bonus or something like shards bonus would be nice in DBD.
For having only forced Ranked game-play modes and no Reward system in place whatsoever for reaching even Rank 1, DBD has held on to this for a very long time surprisingly. I'm not really sure what the reason behind it is exactly, I think at least a small reward, even if just something purely cosmetic, would be nice to receive for putting in all the time and effort required to Rank up.
As the way it stands now, I really can't think of a single reason to WANT to be Rank 1 in DBD, besides maybe if you are a Survivor as we pointed out in this thread it might potentially actually be easier games at Rank 1 due to better & more competent teammates. But for Killer? Purple / Red ranks are horribly un-fun for Killers and give literally 0 reward or benefit for competing and trying.
Sure the devs want a 50% kill ratio in each match. But then killers won't get past rank 8 or probably not even pass the green ranks. Meanwhile survivors will be able to reach red ranks.
So, at that point why even have a ranking system if it defeats their own system if you normally just black pip getting 3 kills at red ranks
It is difficult for new solo survivors.
It can be either easy or difficult for new SWF survivors.
Well, to be fair..
I go back to my first point in the original post, I believe it should be more difficult for Killers to get 4K in Ranks 10-20 against newer Survivors, but at the same time it should be easier for Killers to get 4K in Ranks 1-10 against Red Rank Survivors. Right now this is the root of the problem of balance issues in DBD.