Lyinginbedmon
Lyinginbedmon
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@Aari_Piggy66 said:
Lyinginbedmon said:@SIX said:
Actually, nudity is very common in Horror movies
I'm well aware, but not because it's a horror element.
To explain, the common elements of horror (ie. the things we put in movies because they scare people) are things that are frequently deemed inappropriate for younger audiences. Death is a big no-no in that regard, as are most forms of gore, and this results in horror movies being rated fairly mature.
Similarly, for one reason or another, nudity and sex are also deemed inappropriate for younger audiences and are rater mature. This creates overlap in that movies with one or the other are likely to be vying for much of the same audience. Once your movie achieves a mature rating, it's difficult to go back down, so it's been common practice instead to add more things relegated to that rating to expand your audience and draw in a larger crowd.
Nudity isn't in horror movies because it's scary (barring one specific and rare phobia), it's in horror movies because it sells.
Also, just to point something out: It's almost exclusively the victims that are nude, not the killers.
Well for the most part the original use of nudity and sex in horror films was to be immoral black mark for younger viewers kind of like subtle manipulating.
Teenagers who partook in sex, alcohol and drugs were often the ones that were killed by the slasher whilst those who didn't were more likely to survive.
This is why the final girl archetype existed the girl who never actively got involved in drugs, drinking or sex.
Over the years as promiscuous teenagers became less of a moral outrage and more of a selling point they started to alter how sex is actually shown. This is much more noticeable if you compare older horror movies to newer ones you'll notice it's gone from simple making out and maybe mild clothed rubbing to full on tits and ass.
Correct, it's very much inherited the morality-policing aspect of most folklore. "Behave or the goblins will eat you" etc. have been a standard for centuries, but the interest in moral virtue as a means to salvation in horror legends had a huge boost when religion got a hold of it. This has then carried over into horror media today.
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Then I am simply one speaking up in favour of change.
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@Boss said:
@Lyinginbedmon said:
I enjoy playing Dead by Daylight and I want it to be as accessible to as many people as possible,As many people as possible?
Then why change/remove her?People who like skimpy spirit women won't come and play then.
You'd literally deny people because of what you want.Unless you just dislike those kinds of people, in which case your entire point is nothing but an opinion, and i'll be thankful you're not in the developer team.
My wager in that regard is that "people who like skimpy spirit women" is a significantly smaller segment of the population to attract than "people put off by naked women characters shoehorned into video games" is to deter.
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@Malakir said:
Oh Op I just finished to watch the last 10 sec of the video. If you really are the author of that video omg. The guy actually say "brutalize a young woman" while she is the killer saying its inappropriate put her with the clown and Freddy.. WoW just wowShe brutalize people not the other way around! I know doesn't fit the narrative again my bad
The mention was not in reference to her being actively brutalised in her present state but, rather, the design decision of having her have been brutalised and then placing her into a violent context in nothing but the remains of her underwear.
It would seem you didn't listen very closely.
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@Malakir said:
Isn't the only part, she's not all sex appeal unless you are into dead people pretty heavily.She has a back story that makes you sure with her motives, makes you feel strong with a woman who uses a katana to kill her victims probably taught by her father, which makes the patos skyrocket. They are using classic clothes like @Jack11803 pointed out correctly. If you just see that you have to dig some more since just by her looks I can see at least 3 movies inspirations.
About op, yeah she is the goddess of fertility so? I bring up that example but I can do the same even in the same franchise about other charges or as sad overwatch just for a pose and this is exactly that all over again. Its like saying I'm uncomfortable because David have his torso naked or because the trapper looks too manly. About the video.. Omg I hope you wasn't the guy who made it. Just the example of Freddy being a ######### made me cringe for the remake flashbacks plus put it the clown in the mix implying they abuses the spirit in the entire world is just dumb
As I've noted, the sarashi are traditional clothing but they would have been out of fashion for at least 80 years by Rin's time. One might as well expect the Nurse to be wearing a petticoat.
The likelihood that she was trained in katana usage by her father are extremely remote. In addition to her father being overworked for 20 years in his company, we know what era Rin is from. She most likely died in the late 90s, early 2000s at most, which puts her over a century into modern Japan and a good 2-3 generations into post-war Japan. Even in historical Japan, she'd more likely have learned kyudo (Japanese archery) and even then most probably only if she was actually a temple miko.
With regards to her inspirations, every single one of them involves a fully-clothed woman, right down to the Onryo who were always depicted in full burial kimonos. There's no influence for her that includes her extent of exposure.
Freddy has been a child molester since his inception, it just got more and more overt as the series progressed.
I never said that Freddy and the Clown abuse the Spirit, I simply noted the poor decision of putting a naked young woman in the same game, the same side even, as two adult male sexual predators.
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@Wahara said:
My sincere apologies, I'll try to be more careful. I'm not sure I agree, but I'll allow you to expound further with others.Suffice it to say that whilst her outfit could certainly be worse, I don't think it's good either.
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@Fibijean said:
@Malakir For clarity's sake, which examples are you referring to? OP already addressed the argument you made about David (he's still half-covered and it's not a default skin anyway), and the one about it fitting with the killer's backstory (it doesn't). If you mean the point about Tracer... I guess it wasn't addressed because it's not that relevant. Yes, another game had a similar issue, and in that case no one really cared and nothing changed. OP is still allowed to state his opinion in the (however small) hope that it might get recognised.Point of order: Tracer was changed, after the issue was brought to the attention of the developers and they reviewed it and agreed it didn't mesh with the character.
Which naturally was received negatively by a significant and certain portion of the playerbase for regrettably obvious reasons.
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@Wahara You're misrepresenting me slightly, I didn't say that Rin isn't sexualised, I said that her outfit isn't actively sexualising her. In particular, I noted that it doesn't accentuate or draw attention to any portion of her figure, such as might a push-up bra or frilly underwear. It's not sexualising her any more than plain cotton panties and a sports bra, but is sexualising her by sheer virtue of covering hardly any of her.
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@Malakir said:
The list its infinite but with the context of a game, an horror game.. Talking about a dead woman in spirit form and uncomfortable how she dresses.. Its like he bothered because in a porn the actress is still wearing her high heels.
I brought 2 examples, totally ignored because doesn't fit you guys narrative. Okay but nothing will change as proved in those 2 out of hundred of examples you can findI'm afraid I can't find your second example presently but with regards to Gwynevere, she's literally the goddess of fertility.
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If multiple people independently bring up the same grievances with the same aspects, does that not suggest there might be something to at least look into there?
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@azazer said:
@Lyinginbedmon
But aside from the peace of mind it will give you and a tiny minority how will changing her make the game better? How will putting you at ease make the experience an improvement as a whole? Will covering up her cuts make her more in some way? What exactly are you proposing and explain how it inhances the concept of a murderous ghost driven by vengence?@SIX said:
From our little conversation, i don't think he/she minds her showing some skin, the problem is she's a Killer who doesen't look scary or intimidating the way she's designed.This is a Horror game, she's supposed to look scary not like some cheap stripper, again, from what i've understoodI actually think she achieves her goal of looking scary, but I don't think it's aided by virtue of her being undressed. As mentioned, nudity isn't itself scary. The scary parts of her design are the hair, the eyes, the gashes and floating limbs, the shards of glass etc. not that she isn't wearing a shirt or somesuch. These are all aspects that tie into her backstory as well as the thematic elements she's inspired by, but her nudity isn't supported by either.
To clarify @azazer, I don't want to cover up her cuts. Even her expensive cosmetic doesn't do so, but actually accentuates them to a degree by showing them through the corresponding slashes in her outfit. She's just as intimidating there than she is in her current default skin.
I don't think her being nude or covered will enhance the game or detract from it's element of horror, but conversely I don't think it adds anything either to have her unclothed. We can accomplish the exact same goal without leaving her all but naked, and if her cosmetic is any indication, we already have.
The primary consequence of having a nude young woman in this horror game is that we have to see it all the time because it's her default appearance, it'll show up in marketing materials and it'll be the first thing we see in most matches with her. That just raises a whole ton of uncomfortable situations for a lot of people. Situations that aren't raised by Killers like the Huntress or the Nurse.
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@VolantConch1719 said:
Do we actually KNOW what Rin's job was? For all we know, she could have worked as a stripper (which COULD explain her lack of clothing.)And about her clothing. It is a sarashi, which (this whole thing caused me to look it up) is a (as wikipedia puts it, I know not the best resource) "A sarashi is a long, thick cotton cloth that is tightly wrapped and worn under a kimono for the purpose of altering the figure of women to appear thinner."
Being torn up by glass, it makes sense that it would get loosened.
I covered both of these parts of her backstory actually.
We know she worked at a restaurant (this is stated explicitly in her backstory), though we don't know what her exact job title was or what the establishment was like. That doesn't rule out stripper but it is unlikely, and there is a possibility that her sarashi were part of a traditional-style uniform she wore at work.
I've mentioned elsewhere that sarashi fell out of popular usage around the 1920s so it's doubtful she'd have been wearing it in the late 90s but if indeed her work uniform was kimono style it'd be plausible. It also wasn't typically used for covering your pelvis but that's comparatively minor as problems go here.
It could indeed have been torn up by her crawling through shattered glass after falling a storey, but it's highly unlikely it would be the only thing left of her attire. Kimono are also quite big outfits, with lots of fabric to them, making it pretty unlikely she'd lose the whole thing in the span of her final moments.
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@SIX said:
Alright, i see what you're talking about, but still that's just a design choice not much you can do about it, you'd be lucky if you get some more 'covered' cosmetics at a lower price, nothing moreThe little I can do is voice my problems with it here and just cross my fingers that the devs actually see it and pay some attention to it, which is aided by others of similar understanding raising their voices alongside.
And so here I am.
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@SIX said:
Actually, nudity is very common in Horror moviesI'm well aware, but not because it's a horror element.
To explain, the common elements of horror (ie. the things we put in movies because they scare people) are things that are frequently deemed inappropriate for younger audiences. Death is a big no-no in that regard, as are most forms of gore, and this results in horror movies being rated fairly mature.
Similarly, for one reason or another, nudity and sex are also deemed inappropriate for younger audiences and are rater mature. This creates overlap in that movies with one or the other are likely to be vying for much of the same audience. Once your movie achieves a mature rating, it's difficult to go back down, so it's been common practice instead to add more things relegated to that rating to expand your audience and draw in a larger crowd.
Nudity isn't in horror movies because it's scary (barring one specific and rare phobia), it's in horror movies because it sells.
Also, just to point something out: It's almost exclusively the victims that are nude, not the killers.
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@SIX said:
I still don't understand your problem, really
This game is 18+, you tell me you are fine with a bunch of teens getting slaughtered/impaled/stabbed to death but you can't handle some skin ?As a reminder, Hag's walking around with her nipple like no F given and you don't complain about it just because she's not Human ? please enlighten me because i don't get your point
I actually do complain about, just in the manner that in terms of severity the Hag isn't as bad off as the Spirit. The Hag is exposed but she's also rendered in at most a vaguely-human shape, rather than the Spirit who is very clearly a human woman. I'd certainly be happy to see the Hag get more clothing, but in terms of priority I'd prefer the Spirit first.
I do also discuss the importance of context in my video, because I know I'm saying thing X isn't appropriate in a game that already has a boat load of thing Y. The answer is that this is a Horror game, and this factor being included via the Spirit's default appearance isn't remotely relevant to Horror. Slaughtering, impaling, stabbing, death, those all make sense, but not nudity.
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@White_Owl said:
I'm going to be "that guy" and point out that the Wraith is covered just in some bandages and a short cloak. Should they put pants on him?The Wraith's cloak provides him about as much coverage as David's trousers in terms of surface area, so he's mostly just showing off his legs, arms, and head. Even then, he's caked in dirt and mud, his hair is pointed like branches, and his eyes are pin-pricks. You could say he's human, but for the most part he's just a humanoid shape, and that distinguishes him from the situation of the Spirit. He's not quite the same degree of inhuman humanoid as the Hag, but he's not on the same level as the Spirit. Maybe he could do with a bit more fabric (must be chilly in the spectral dimension) but it's less pressing of a concern.
A few people have questioned why I'm picking on the Spirit in particular (and the Hag, though to a lesser degree as explained elsewhere) and not things like Shirtless David. The answer is that I don't personally feel anyone needs to be shirtless or nude, but on balance they're all different circumstances. In David's case, it's a non-standard cosmetic, and so it's not something you're stuck with by default.
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@GodDamn_Angela said:
@Lyinginbedmon said:
My reference to accessibility relates to the broader issue that she's a woman running around in hardly even her underwear who was canonically murdered by her father (her backstory even explicitly mentions her father destroying her mother's breasts) and there are already two separate sexual predators in the Killer roster (yes I know Freddy would likely think her "too old" but that certainly hasn't stopped him before, and the Clown isn't explicitly driven by sexual desire but he certainly mirrors and echoes a great number of sexual predators).Freddy is a Licensed Killer AND he doesn't only assault girls.
Also you STATING that the Clown echoes a great number of Sexual Predators means nothing. Just because you say he is a sexual predator doesn't mean he is. His victims are also not just women.
Being a sexual predator is not dependent upon the gender of your victims, but on the motivations behind your attacks
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@Wolf74 said:
Can we get that as a skin for her please?Fun trivia the Angry Princess is one of very few female horror villains to be as undressed as The Spirit, another in recent memory would be the Wendigo of Until Dawn.
@Fibijean said:
For me personally, I get where you're coming from, but if I just think about the first time I saw the Spirit, my thought process was more along the lines of "wow, amazing, I think this is the creepiest and most well-designed killer they've ever done. The details in the animations really sell it." So to premise, it is very much a matter of interpretation.However, I disagree that her backstory has no bearing on how scantily clad she is. As far as I remember, before she died, Rin was crawling around in a sea of broken glass, having already been sliced up with a katana. I feel like a situation like that would realistically shred her clothes as well as her skin, so it's not unreasonable that she won't have much left in the way of clothing by the time she's picked up by the entity.
That said, I think that how smooth-skinned she appears is a little unrealistic. She could have been made to look a bit more inhuman (like the Hag) and a bit less like a Barbie Doll if her skin was more torn up from all that broken glass. If it's enough to shred her clothes, her skin should also be in tatters. It's an 18+ game and the devs have already proven they don't have any issues with gore, so there's no reason why they couldn't have done that for her base model.
(Side note: I notice you mentioned something about wanting it to be accessible to people? I can't tell if that's because you think the sexualisation might offend some people, or that it's too mature for some players, but if it's the latter I would reiterate what I mentioned above about it being rated 18+, and for good reason.)
I do like her animations, the hovering limbs and occasional jittering about are a good touch and drawn from other popular depictions of Onryo (the specific vengeance spirit she's thematically inspired by). Besides her visual design my only remotely meaningful complaint about her (which is almost purely personal opinion) is that she's kind of loud on the main menu compared to other Killers. She's a great addition otherwise and I really enjoy playing her, just not so much looking at her.
In the course of her backstory (which I cover in the video for this reason), one arm is slashed twice, the other once, then her abdomen, her thigh, and then she's tossed through a glass partition landing a floor below her father. There's no mention of what she landed save for it being a lot of glass (presumably from the broken partition). I agree she could do with more glass damage on that basis, it does seem to be very little for what is described as a "sea" and would help to detract from her running around in literally underwear, but I disagree that it would be sufficient to render the rest of her clothes completely absent without trace.
There's also the matter that the underwear in particular doesn't make sense. The Spirit studied at Takamatsu university, an actual place that was founded in 1996, but sarashi are a traditional Japanese undergarment that went out of popular usage in the 1920s. I do suggest that the restaurant she was working at might have had a traditional style to it that would justify older attire, but kimonos don't shred very easily and we should see some trace of it on her (thematically she should be wearing a full burial kimono, which is actually what her most expensive cosmetic roughly resembles). We can maybe speculate that the devs are taking license here, but I don't think it really helps the matter of her being incredibly exposed ultimately.
My reference to accessibility relates to the broader issue that she's a woman running around in hardly even her underwear who was canonically murdered by her father (her backstory even explicitly mentions her father destroying her mother's breasts) and there are already two separate sexual predators in the Killer roster (yes I know Freddy would likely think her "too old" but that certainly hasn't stopped him before, and the Clown isn't explicitly driven by sexual desire but he certainly mirrors and echoes a great number of sexual predators).
When between 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 women will experience some form of sexual assault, and when it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the horror element (nudity and horror are unrelated but tend to get lumped together because they're both grounds for an adult rating), I think the design is just going to be off-putting for a lot of women who might play the game (@Naiad has mentioned not being put-off by it and hey great for them but they aren't the entire female population). We had the Nurse, the Huntress, and the Pig as fully-clothed women, the Hag wasn't great but at least she doesn't immediately read as a naked human, and now we've got the Spirit. It feels like we have done and could do way better.
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@powerbats said:
There's shirtless David, The Hag shows way more skin and body parts and the only reason you don't notice or care is because she's dark skinned, saggy and shriveled.I actually mentioned The Hag and David in my video, the former specifically as being the only other Killer with this same problem of exposure. I also explain that The Hag doesn't suffer it the same way as The Spirit because she is frequently positioned as being literally inhuman (Medusa, Photosynthesis, etc.) and is heavily deformed to the point of no longer reading as human at a glance. She'd look more at home in the background of The Walking Dead than in a swimwear catalogue, unlike The Spirit.
It's also worth noting that, in terms of sheer surface area? Shirtless David actually beats both of them for coverage. What's more, Shirtless David is a cosmetic, not a default appearance. If people want to customise the characters to be more scantily-clad then I won't stop them, but having it be the default and requiring investment to escape isn't okay.
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@pemberley said:
I tend to agree. I really feel like her expensive skin should be the default.It’s kind of interesting how the male killers all get to be gory and spooky but the female killers (except maybe Hag) are kind of tame looking.
The Hag definitely has a lot more in common with Killers like the Doctor, but I think the differing levels of gore is more related to their differing horror archetypes than their gender itself. The Nurse follows a sort of ghostly thematic, the Huntress is a bloodthirsty hunter, etc. and these don't lend themselves as much to the more cinema-grade gore elements like the Trapper and Hillbilly.
As covered in my video though, the Spirit's thematic elements don't tie in to her appearance much at all. Her gore elements are, if anything, the parts most consistent with her backstory.
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@Wahara said:
I think it's okay. I mean, yes, she does show a lot of skin but her outfit isn't specifically designed to sexualize her. If she was touting a wonder push-up bra and a thong, complete with excessive graphics, i.e her breasts swayed from side to side as she chased people, I would say that you have a point.Her breasts do, because she's the first female Killer released after Curtain Call, which added jiggle physics.
And sure, I grant you her outfit isn't designed to sexualise her. As you say, it's not deliberately drawing attention to or accentuating any parts of her figure, but it is reducing her to an absurd level of exposure that even the Hag doesn't have to deal with.
Whilst she's not engineered to be sexy, she's still a nude woman and unless you took a moment to notice the handful of small details that indicate her post-human condition, that's all you'd think her to be.
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@powerbats said:
🤦♂️This has been discussed Ad Nauseum already with plenty of discussion on both sides and reasons why it's fine. If it disturbs you so much don't buy her or play as her and if you're noticing her nudity so much that would point to you as the issue.
The fact you focus so much on her nudity and not ehr gameplay shows the issue isn't with her nudity or clothing but your moralistic focus on such things. To use an older vocabulary term, your prurient interest is the issue here, n ot Rin's clothing.
On the contrary, I enjoy her gameplay, I think it's very solid, I have no issue with her mechanics. The visuals are my only problem and I say as much in the video quite clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcHOGTzdFf4