thrkeybs
thrkeybs
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@king_ab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873614#Comment_3873614
Maybe they should make killer gameplay better and more fun instead of putting them in a corner with a leash every update?
Are killer players genuinely okay? Have you played survivor for even a second?
The norm for the past few years are that BHVR buffs killers, and nerfs survivors. You really can't get any more entitled than this.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
If you want to make your judgments about the game based on your experience with one killer players out of the thousands and thousands out there, go ahead. This is pretty uncommon in my experience
Most of your posts are just you reiterating this.
Hmm, I wonder why..
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865770#Comment_3865770
The same Update that Corrupt, Ruin, Noed, PGTW, Pain Res and Tinkerer got nerfed, yeah i remember that update but yeah it was also the gen kick meta but guess what? Those perks that started the gen kick meta have been nerfed so badly that they are not worth using anymore not to mention that Killers have gotten a limit to how many times that they can kick a generator. DH and DS being unusable? They got nerfed sure, but they are still part of the survivor meta meanwhile Killers meta nowadays have been reduced to Pain Res, Thrill, Ruin and Pentimento, very drastically different to where the meta was 3 years ago except for Pain Res being the only meta perk that has seen consistent use ever since it got itroduced with Artist chapter. Now 3 years later the meta has only changed on the killer side regarding perk usage whereas on the survivors they are still using meta perks like DS, DH, OTR, Adrenaline, Deliverance, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Unbreakable and Resilience. My point is that the meta didn't really change on the survivor side but on the kiler side it did.
..survivors they are still using meta perks like DS, DH, OTR, Adrenaline, Deliverance, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Unbreakable and Resilience.
DH and DS? They got nerfed sure
You're talking yourself in circles.
Yes, the best survivor perks are still meta, despite being much worse after their many nerfs.
Yes, killers are running different perks, because some of the ones you mentioned were nerf.
But what you're showing here is that killers have much more flexibility and access to better perks. If survivor's kits had the same, they wouldn't be running the same nerfed perks. See how that works and doesn't actually prove what you think it does?
In any case, the ole "who has better perks" or "who got more nerfs" argument is tired and dull. Please move on.
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Bull. Sh*t.
This is not happening in the majority of your games.
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@Yggleif said:
I remember the times 6+ years ago where you'd get hooked and the killer would literally just stand right next to you and a hook trade was nearly guaranteed nearly in a lot of scenarios if the killer had STBFL and unhooking required multiple people.
It could be better but people don't know how awful it used to be and it's kind of amazing this game survived despite that. I guess busted DS and DH did make it equally frustrating on the killer side so that was something.
Nah this is either misremembering at best or just straight up disingenuous.
Killers wouldn't normally do things like that despite the game's mechanics allowing them, because they… actually cared about how the other players perceived them, and wanted to have a fair game.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858808#Comment_3858808
I hate to be this guy, but it's not how little you lose that counts. It's the way in which you lose. You did just as fast chases, used just as much strategy, and made as few mistakes as when you won, but because the survivors were fast on gens, they just get 3 out by default. It's got nothing to do with skill.
I usually cringe at your posts, not because you're very clearly biased towards killer, but because your arguments are purely based on arbitrary metrics.
This, however, is the type of comment I wish you left more often — it's excellent.
The conversations in this forum usually turn into people trying to throw percentages and metrics at each other to "prove" that one side of more balanced than the other. The result is unproductive. People leave unhappy, and further dig their heels into their side's argument. No one wins.
Think of your favorite game.
Did you really know about all the statistics role? Were you acutely aware of queue time metrics? Did you try to convince friends to love the game by reading out intimate spreadsheet details to them?
No. You remember how the game made you feel.
Whether you died on a boss over and over, or you got stuck in a certain part of the map becomes irrelevant in the larger sense if the game does a good job at keeping you engaged and having fun. How the game made you feel while playing it is what made you fall in love.
And that's why, as much as I disagree with d87's takes on the regular, I think this is a phenomenal example of what I wish I saw more on this forum. It's much more moving for someone who doesn't play killer as much to know that killers aren't simply unhappy about losing or that they're "unhappy with just a 60% win rate", but rather the extent to which they feel unrewarded for doing their best.
Killers are not having fun despite the outcome of the game. OK! That makes sense to me!
And I can totally get on board with that. BHVR should definitely reward killers for their efforts, in a way that scales with them having to do much more work than the 4 individual survivors — yeah, makes sense!
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@Brimp said:
Its hard to make the game fun most of the time for both sides in an A-symm. It's the very nature of A-symms to where either side trying to win is gonna be boring for the other at least in most cases.
Also is unsafe really that bad? Doesn't it imply you need to make more correct reads to be able to play the tile. Also before anyone says anything I am not including the death pallet that is the midwich hallway pallet. Basically every pallet can be played to some effectiveness when ran right.Its hard to make the game fun most of the time for both sides in an A-symm.
Hard, not impossible. It can be done — and our goal in giving feedback isn't to solve the problem. Let the pros at BHVR handle that. We're just looking to give them feedback that makes their job a little less challenging.
Also is unsafe really that bad? Doesn't it imply you need to make more correct reads to be able to play the tile. Also before anyone says anything I am not including the death pallet that is the midwich hallway pallet. Basically every pallet can be played to some effectiveness when ran right.
Fair point.
I'll expand on what I was saying, and what I've heard others say in this thread:
It's not that unsafe pallets shouldn't exist, nor that every tile should be infinitely loop-able. Like a nice, delicious salad, you have a healthy dose of each ingredient. Some pallets should be unsafe, some loops should be 50/50, others should allow the killer and the survivors to get into interesting mind game situations.
The draw of this game, at least for me, is the human element. Because killers are people, their behaviors can be read and understood — and they can, likewise, predict survivor behavior. Being on a tile that you both are trying little mind games with each other, doubling-back and using the walls to your advantage..
That's really freaking fun. When a killer catches me after a good mind game situation, I find myself saying out loud "damn, good job."
The sentiment I have, and I see other survivors in this thread share, is that this type of gameplay has been slowly patched away, favoring map design that encourages more "hide-and-seek" situations — if the killer finds you (esp. near a dead zone), you really don't have a lot of outplay resources. That's not nearly as exciting, to me anyways.
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@jajay119 said:
”you already lost the game, there’s only two of you left”
This attitude in an of itself is a massive issue and contributing factor as to why the game has gone down the pan. There are still half of the team in play. There should be no way shape or form this should be considered a lost game.I agree with you! There could be a much more interesting and dynamic 2-survivor-remaining gameplay design.
Maybe the entity drops flamethrowers and other weapons from the sky, and the remaining survivors battle it out to the death — with the killer as the judge of who gets to escape?!
But the reality of the current game design is that you likely aren't escaping, and by the MMR rules (DBD has opaque and unclear "win" cons so you can't really blame players for trying to find some win con), a hatch is considered a draw, not a win.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858944#Comment_3858944
This is very true. The tile distribution itself often creates massive dead zones. Reworked Haddonfield is a glaring example. Every corner of the map is a coffin corner.
The more we discuss this the more this feels like, at least to me, the biggest source of "unfun" in the game.
Since maps were redesigned, there's less emphasis on a survivor being able to outsmart a killer, or a killer being able to outsmart a killer, and it feels like you're just chum for shark bait. In fact, it feels like there's a straight line between map design and the other problems causing unfun things in the game for both sides:
Maps and tiles are redesigned to discourage looping
→ Survivors have few playable tiles & resources
→ Survivors only resource is then to focus on gens
→ Killers feel like Survivors are gen rushing
→ Killers avoid hooks to save time
→ Killers slug and tunnel more to become more efficient
= Everyone has less fun -
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858808#Comment_3858808
Everybody is going to have a different opinion on what the kill rates should be, so it's pointless to try to convince people one way or the other. The fact of the matter is that when kill rates were lower, killer numbers were way down as evidenced by the extremely long survivor queue times that we had. BHVR have decided that the sweet spot for balancing the number of killer players vs. survivor players in queues is a ~60% kill rate. If you don't like it, then I don't know what else to tell you other than 1) play a different game; 2) play in a SWF team where you get an unfair advantage from comms and your escape rate will increase; or 3) play a customer match against bot killers if you want to escape more frequently.
Unlike many who are complaining about the survivor experience, I actually play killer a good % of the time so I know what happens to the killer experience when the survivor side gets overly buffed. You get exactly what has actually happened at certain points in the game's history when nobody wanted to play killer. Survivor-only players often forget that there is a human being on the other side of the screen who also wants to have an enjoyable experience on a level playing field.
I know that survivor, especially solo queue, can be a miserable experience but it's not because killers are OP. It's because matchmaking is non-existent and unless you're playing in a full 4-man SWF, you're getting matched with other people on a completely random basis with no regard whatsoever for skill level. I have well over 2,000 hours in the game and literally every day I play, I will get thrown into lobbies with brand new players and it's not because of a lobby backfill. This is the real issue that needs to be dealt with, not survivor vs. killer balance. My solo queue matches with teammates who know what they are doing are usually pretty competitive and enjoyable.
Nope. Stop.
You're not actually reading this thread, and you're morphing the thread into a "survivors vs. killer" strength argument.
That's not what this is about — Yes, the two are related: your enjoyment in the game is tied to the strength of your opponent. But the purpose of this thread is to step back from that specific POV, and to think about how the game could be more enjoyable for both sides.
The current levers of balance that BHVR has used are limited to survivor & killer strength, yes. Incremental changes to perks, items, add-ons, etc. that change the way the game is balanced towards one side or the other.
But those aren't the only buttons they can push — the game can be radically changed in a way that both sides actually enjoy the game more, regardless of being in SWF or solo queue. And it's also not our job to tell BHVR how to do this, we can simply provide feedback that that's what we want, and let them do the professional work of adjusting their game.
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/435229/survivor-is-no-longer-fun
Killers aren't having the best time either
100% — and this is where I think the discussion usually takes a turn into killer versus survivor gameplay, but I want to zoom out and think a bit more imaginatively:
What if BHVR made the game more fun for both sides? What if there were design implementations where both sides get rewarded?
After all, this is a fantasy game, and literally anything is possible.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
To be honest when I was survivor main I found loops and sitting on gens boring. Circling around the killer shack with ease just didn't feel rewarding to me. I do find fun it going into survivor match with the mindset of "I probably won't survive but let's see what BP and goals I can get done, maybe get a few gens done and help others escape." My advice is approach survivor mode from a different angle, especially in soloq because you can bet other people in solo are doing adepts and totem challenges and other things. I find fun in that anyway
I walk into a restaurant that I know the steak will come totally butchered and not at all how it was advertised.
The server hands me a plate full of beets. There's no steak.
Do I continue going to that restaurant?
Do I force myself to keep ordering, hoping one day to get the steak?
Do I start changing my own expectations of what steak is, and tell myself that "tonight, I'm going to order steak but I'm actually going to hope I get the beets."
Listen, I appreciate you trying to make the best of a lack of steak — really, I'm not being ironic.
But I fear we've lost the plot. The game's core is about hunting and being hunted. I want to enjoy the core gameplay that was advertised. Making the best out of beets is honorable, but… give me the damn steak I ordered.
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i like that the player cloud id is used for the survey. by giving the wrong answers you can get banned now.
Unfortunately, I think they're using it to sync up survey responses with how much you've spent on cosmetics. I mean, they basically say so in that disclaimer: "we may combine some of your in-game data such as your purchase history"
BHVR, it feels really gross to weigh responses based on how much someone has spent in the shop. The health and fun of the game should be priority. Just because someone spent more in the shop doesn't mean their opinion should weigh more heavily in your decisions.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857545#Comment_3857545
Nobody cares about anyone's experience and enjoyment in multiplayer games. Surprise, surprise, people suck and online games are where they get to be themselves unpunished. They're only happy when they get to bring their opponents down and rub it in their face. I'm not excited about this, but humanity is a disappointment in general, so nothing's new.
There are plenty of people who do care. And even if there weren't, you don't need to add on to the misery by throwing in your tomatoes too.
There are fundamental design issues, like incentives and disincentives in this game, that do make the player base focus more on their individual gameplay than the overall fun of the game — I do agree. But design can be re-designed, incentives can be maneuvered to provide everyone a better and healthier experience within the game.
Shooting others down for wanting things to be better is easy, but it makes the game worse for both you and the other person.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
Stop looking for wholesomeness in Dead by Daylight or from people in general. What are you, six?
What a miserable thing to say. Maybe you think this type of reply makes you look tough when it really just exposes you as exactly the type of player that is the problem in modern DBD.
If you actually loved this game and wanted it to be a better experience for both killers and survivors, it would behoove you to, you know, actually care about others' experience and enjoyment.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851059#Comment_3851059
game is currently cattering to casual players on both sides more than actual serious players, this is why e.g. Singularity's skill floor was significantly lowered with recent changes.
Thing is, people on survivor side beg for more basekit features/perks that will reduce the skill floor of playing their role to a point where you can put your brain on autopilot and usually win.
People basically want game to counter strategies of their opponents while those same players make 0 skill input
You just walked back your own argument.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850214#Comment_3850214
sorry to bother you, but just ask yourself which side is the one asking for more basekit features to counter every single strategy of their opponents ;)
I can see how that might confuse you, so no problem, I'll help: Both sides ask for more strength to counter their opponent!
So, what exactly was the point you felt so smug in trying to make?
Yes, survivors ask for more buffs. You're actually helping my point, because what I'm saying is that survivor is currently in a weak and unfun play state due to all the changes to make killer easier.
If you're trying to say survivors are asking for more base kit features to counter their opponents.. yeah, duh?
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@danielmaster87 said:
This is so bonkers, that the perk's even being discussed. People have barely had a chance to play with or against it, and are 100% using confirmation bias to call it strong.
I mean look at buffed Predator. Everyone was losing their minds like, "Aaaahhh! The killer gets aura for losing people! We'll never win!" Nobody uses that garbage perk. It's aura. Big deal.
🫱 Similar thing with TOTH and totems. It doesn't slow the gens, except ever so slightly with Ruin. But you can just do the gens and run out like usual, or do the totems and make the killer guard them, thus taking them off gens and off priority chase targets. A killer will not be able to tunnel effectively and simultaneously use this build to effect. It's impossible, unless you just hand it to him on a silver platter.
Sadly there's a supermajority that just doesn't want killer to have anything strong. If we were truly arguing against stuff that's OP, it would be stuff that's stopping good survivors from doing even 1 gen, and then killing them all. Longer totem cleanses is not gonna do that by itself. That only happens with bad survivors. Like, what are survivors doing with their time? Why are you so adamant on defending low caliber players?
Do you play survivor?
Just wondering if you can also see how almost all of your posts have this extremely biased and even condescending attitude about any opinion that goes against yours, and how biased all your takes are. -
How exactly do you propose that BHVR "addresses
@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/434104/current-state-of-survivor
Why should I play survivor, when:
- Devs do nothing about slugging.
- Devs aren't doing nothing with Nurse, if you go vs 1000+ hour Nurse it's almost guaranteed win.
- Thrill of the Hunt situation - releasing perk that wasn't tested at all, if it lasts until winter event I'm simply not going to play and also my SWF.
- I've waited 6 months in Eruption+CoB+Overcharge meta, literally matches were so miserable back then and BHVR did nothing.
- Killers have perks that give value for nothing - for example Nowhere to Hide (and ofc Distortion nerf) removed all stealth in game.
- There was Nerf for medkits, only because Otz & other killer mains made video about it - and I swear, if devs add yet another medkit nerf - as Otz said in his recent video I'm gonna quit this game for good. Literally balancing the game around top of the top sweatlords.
- All maps are shrunk, tiles are weaker.
- A lot of perk classes are basically dead - Boon perks, Teamwork perks (someone remember about them??), Invocation is so laughably bad, literally every viable survivor perk have to have some kind of drawbacks, Shoulder the Burden is also not that good, very situational and it got nerfed at the start.
This is your answer.
Why would survivors play when the fundamental design of survivor is so punishing?
That leads to bad sportsmanship, and players constantly DCing or dying on hook. There's no carrot on the stick for the majority of players in every match.
And anyone saying "address the community's attitude" is a distraction. BHVR can't change people, they can only change their game design to promote favored actions. But this is entirely the point: their game design is what causes this game state we're living with.
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Anything that provides survivors a form of agency is seen as "problematic" and OP.
If it were up to killer mains, survivors would have no perks, run at 85% speed, and would be constantly exposed.
It's like y'all feel a sense of entitlement to always win — and if you lost, for some reason, it must be nerfed.
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If survivors coordinate well together..
..and use their perks wisely....they might win the game!
Then the survivors should win?
Like, this is not the convincing argument you think it is. You can say the same thing about almost any other perk? Seriously, it sounds like killers believe they should never lose any game, for any reason.
The issue at hand is that this perk shakes things up, in a way that makes it uncomfy for killers whose only strategy is tunneling. There's been many examples of killers in this very thread saying they don't see in an issue with it, pointing to them not resorting to tunneling as their only strategy.
This perk is scaring just the target demographic it was intended to shake up. Good job, BHVR. :)