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@StarstruckFrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622406#Comment_3622406
Listen man, I understand you don't seem to like me or my ideas based on our various interactions. But the fact that in the many times we've talked you've never offered a single constructive idea to bounce back at me is pretty bothersome. You only defend current trickster and seem to dismiss the mere idea that he could be better, and FEEL better for both sides by a mile. I don't care that "old trickster was dark souls" and don't wanna hear nonsense comparisons like "Worse Huntress." I'm trying to have productive conversations here about a character I enjoyed playing.
Oh, and if you're "questioning if I'm a trickster main," I think my gameplay speaks for itself, thanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhhCdKgwLiM
Regardless of all that, I think we just fundamentally disagree about the design of the character. I think Main Event in it's entirety adds nothing to Trickster's identity. It's not special. It's more of the same. It's fundamentally just throwing knives faster, which I don't think is hugely necessary with the re-implementation of trickster old throwing rate, which gets the job done much more effectively and with more control. Infinite ammo sustained fire is never going to be as interesting as the dynamic throw rate, which added so much to the character in my opinion.
That said, I agree that adding the penalty AND increasing the requirement to 12 was too much. But, I still do think there should be some way to lose stacks. Though to be honest: I don't know how exactly to get it right without sacrificing some add-on slots to just forever be duplicates, which I don't find fun. Initially I had it so that you'd only lose 1 charge per miss, but I was so creatively bankrupt when it came time to make add-ons that I couldn't think of a new one, so I increased it to 2 so I could have an excuse to make a new addon that decreased it.
Other than that, I'm not sure what else to say. I pretty much wholeheartedly maintain my core stance that 6-Knife Meter is the best route for the character, followed up by returning to his old throw rate, in exchange for main event taking a hit to it's usefulness. I also hate duplicate add-ons, so I tried to come up with as many unique ones as I could. Some of them were bad and hapless, I'll own that, but I also firmly believe you underestimate how obnoxiously easy Trick Blades are to use.
While yes the calculated shots the add-on allows are great, the add-on is commonly used by trickster players who don't put much effort into aiming, and instead opt to bring indoor maps and just spam in the general direction of a survivor hoping one will land. I added the range limit to encourage Trickster players to actually aim directly at Survs at medium range, and only use the ricochet effect when actually playing tiles in smart ways. I feel like that is more than fair given all the other buffs I want to see come to normal trickster, but I think the range could be increased to be fair.
After reading all the comments, I own the fact that my proposed rework here wasn't perfect, so I've taken the initiative and decided to revamp it again, simplifying it much more.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XJP3S02I3U6I/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HR4R0YXZL25O/image.png
This way, I get all the old basekit mechanics I loved, all the fun add-ons I like, every part of the kit is pretty strong but not overtuned, and you get your 15s decay back and better trick blades. Let me know if you have any problems with this and try to actually be constructive regardless of whether or not you disagree with some changes.
(Keep in mind Main Event's duration is very short now, but this is to compensate for the fact that you have to hit less knives during it for a health state than before. I feel like that's a worthy trade-off)
1st and foremost I’ve written down rework ideas for the 4.4m/s and 4.6m/s version in the Trickster Google Doc. Many highly experienced Trickster players reviewed it and didn’t seem to have any complaints regarding it. BHVR has their own vision, it’s their game/ IP. They’ve decided that Trickster should not be as hard to get into as before. He’s one of the controversial killers. Reason being is, that players didn’t bother learning how to properly play him or against him. Resulting in him sounding unhealthy for the game on one side or being seen as too weak by the other side. Hence why the rework happened. This version is something new and we’re trying to make it work and improve for both sides. We’ve gone away from the unhook preventor, territorial Trickster to be a more chase-oriented one.
You saying that I haven’t given you an idea on how to fix your rework is bothersome, when you’re disregarding my opinion that your version in fact would turn Trickster into a worse Huntress and labeling it as nonsense. Not to mention how you’ve responded to my concerns regarding controller player issues and to certain members on this forum, who’ve given you their views. Proclaiming them as laughable, telling them to just aim better, or denying the claim that the survivors you showcased in your montage are playing poorly as if you’re the all-mighty know-it-all (big ego) when you’ve designed a Trickster that is just horrible. Showcasing your lack of understanding of his kit and the issues both sides would suffer from. I understand you’re frustrated but Trickster is not strictly your character and killing off the things that people love about him just so you can have fun and stop whining is not how it goes. It’s not the end of the world. I've seen you play Huntress and it’s exactly like you play Trickster. To give you the same treatment you’ve given me regarding the decay issue, I’d suggest you run Boa and Trick Pouch/ Memento if you want to rely less on Main Event if it’s that big of an issue for you.
I’ve seen your montage of clips. Hole shots are cool to do. But the way you play Trickster is something we as Trickster content creators have taught our communities to avoid doing. Which is to not play him like a Huntress, holding your knives for such a long period of time, hoping to hit a cool shot or two while just inherently slowing yourself down. Once you face a somewhat decent survivor you’d lose too much time on having 0 pressure with your power. It’s the biggest meme amongst the Trickster community. We named it Shoes Gaming. It’s even mentioned as one of the main caveats as to why people don’t play Trickster efficiently in the Google Doc. It’s players who played Huntress before they picked up Trickster and believe he should be played like her. Even Otzdarva after watching/communicating with Trickster content creators (such as Wacek) understood why shoes gaming is detrimental to the Trickster player and pointed out that it’s a trap most players get themselves into. You’ve said it yourself that you’ve played the majority of your games without Main Event literally admitting you’re playing him like a huntress but laughing at me saying that you want Trickster to be Huntress 2.0. The Trickster should have his own identity. If you want to be rewarded for patient shots, play Huntress. Trickster is a lunatic, a maniac who laughs as he sees/hears the survivors in agony. If you have to hit more than 2 knives for a down in this case 12-16, the killer is encouraged to get as many knives into a survivor as possible and be on their tail. While you on the other hand are just walking with your knives expecting them to land (from whatever range) when that’s a huge amount of pressure and distance you’re losing. Sure they landed in THOSE CLIPS that you’ve personally saved, and it’s fine when it’s the last knife before a health state, but otherwise it’s pointless if the survivor has a brain. You’ll feel that laceration decay the moment a survivor stops playing your game. You’ll have wasted knives, lost laceration and have no distance gained. I know, hole-shot / sniper Tricksters love boa, shoes, and cufflinks because it makes their lives easier. Boa especially cause it makes up for the knives you guys missed. You’ll get stuck to those add-ons with no return and without exploring the other sides of Trickster, which is sad. But it’s your game you paid for it so play it as you wish. As we mentioned many times shoes is an add-on that most people start off with but don’t allow themselves to learn the basekit function, rendering them addicted to shoes (in most cases Huntress type of Tricksters).
While it’s cool, that type of gameplay works against survivors who are unaware and don’t necessarily learn from experience ( like hey Trickster shot me once through a hole maybe this time I’ll duck or just wait, keeping my effective distance and maintain los blockage). In the montage: The Felix, the Renato, the Ash and the Yui could’ve wasted so much of your time if they had the right pathing (made correct plays). The hole shot on Claud is just you wasting time, probably why you didn’t include the rest of the chase. These clips are awesome sure, but they don’t define Trickster Mastery. If it was good players you’d lose a lot of time on those chases and have your laceration go to 0. Forgetting to mention your playstyle would in fact be dead if we rolled in your 12s decay idea. The other day I made 2 clips where I did insane hole shot downs, does it make me a Trickster master if I just compile the times my knives hit and just cut out all the misses?
Trickster mastery was trying to avoid as many reloads as possible. It’s what made him stand aside from Huntress whom he was often compared to, a weaker Huntress as they’d say. That playstyle required the most amount of reloads skipped in which case Main Event helped, and a lot. Not to mention you could snowball with Main Event. No reload playstyle was the hardest to do consistently. But harder than that was to use Trick Blades efficiently while avoiding reloading every chase. It’s easy just to spam and hope for value to get a down after using all your knives and reload, sure. But using them effectively is not the easiest of tasks, those knives don’t get attracted to the survivors like a magnet. So no Trick blades are not cheap or easy. It requires an understanding of tiles, surfaces, and the trajectory. Plus it’s the most map-dependent add-on. If you go to Yamaoka, Swamp, Autohaven... you’ll notice that those tiles are not completely flat and that more objects have dents in them when you look at them very closely which visually might encourage you to shoot from afar but they don't allow the knives to bounce as you wish.
From what I’m seeing, you only played Trickster one way and believe that everyone should play him like that. In the Trickster community, as I said you’re a Shoes gamer a.k.a. Trickster that’s a wannabe Huntress. Keep playing him as you like but by ignoring his power identity you’re making him out to be a Huntress, which he’s not. Do not expect the rest of us to obey your “my way is the only way " philosophy.
Another thing, while mentioning that your rework is bad I've given you the issues it has. A 4.6 ranged killer is hard to balance:
- Survivors don’t like going down so fast while the ranged killer never gives them a breather because he’s 4.6. So half a laceration a second is a no if he’s a below 8 laceration Trickster. But with the 7.4.0 ptb we’ve seen that it was a no from the survivor's side, even though he had a huge punishment but was sadly never given a chance to go live. DTC didn’t carry over well to the new version leading people to believe he’s broken without the add-on as well, resulting in his nerf after the the PTB.
- Players not knowing how to use Main Event (pocketing with album or m1 after hitting 1 laceration, 5 knifing a survivor) resulted in people complaining on forums and other social media about how it’s bad and useless and that HE’S JUST A WEAKER HUNTRESS. Because he has to do more work for the same results while one of his abilities was “useless” was one of the reasons BHVR wants it to be his main power. So he could have his own identity.
- You may argue “Let’s give them a smaller laceration decay timer” for example 12. That renders our power useless in the majority of loops in the DBD world. The only way we’d be able to accept lower decay is if we shot enormously fast which would be like more than half of his laceration requirement a second, which is a no, again.
- Also, the reason why I mentioned ramping would be an issue is that for the 4.4 version it fit, because he was a slow killer, and would lose up to 4.5% haste for continuously shooting. Now he doesn’t have a penalty for shooting continuously.
- To have all of this as 4.6 is so much harder to balance as we’d be implementing 4.4 variants of penalties when BHVR doesn’t wanna punish players but would rather reward them for good plays.
- And no the survivors are not being punished just like that. Every killer’s power has to be respected. It goes for Blight, Oni, Nurse, Spirit… even Myers if you let him stalk you he could snowball the game very quickly. Why does Trickster all of a sudden seem like he’s very oppressive when more killers feel more unfair compared to him when he needs to do a lot of work in comparison to them to get his power’s value? Survivors could try to learn how to face a Trickster but refuse to do so. He has counterplay always had.
- All of your changes would lead to further balance issues. Asking for us to go back to the 4.4 version would be a better option with some of the quality-of-life changes that the 4.6 version got.
- But again as Mandy said they don’t plan on going away from the 4.6 version. So, we’re trying to make it work. A 3.3 throw rate doesn’t make survivors go down super quick. It’s at least 2 and something seconds to get to his main power which is now Main Event. Kinda like Oni’s demon mode. Another thing Main Event is not a guaranteed down. If survivors use LOS properly they can avoid going down. For the Trickster, if he secured a down he saved from 8 to who knows how many knives.
- These are the reasons why I’ve said we’re in a good middle ground right now.
AND WHY I’m not giving you fixes since your version just wouldn’t work.
Do these clips make me a master Trickster? (headphones gamer warning) Look at all the COOL moments I've experienced I must be better than everyone cause I mastered him and was able to do all of this, RIGHT?! :))
https://clips.twitch.tv/GiantObeseDunlinItsBoshyTime-uDUTCLmE1AA0avna?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/HorribleBashfulLyrebirdPeteZaroll-dut_v_-HFrxquaT9?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/HyperTrustworthySheepYouWHY-hOQxRRpZoY-Jz-8y?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/WildWittyGarbageDuDudu-BctjNldAdMxCEKUT?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/AntsyPiercingCarrotTakeNRG-Iwdw_vTKg4k38OHt?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/GrossSilkyTeaShadyLulu-pcDzk4KfwJvB_LHv?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/TawdrySaltyAsteriskYouDontSay-LuzqtmxkdCiYats7?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/BrainyVenomousSangCmonBruh-gAIPMrLEGSLzz35v?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/SucculentApatheticButterPeteZarollTie-dg3X0IxquUuk118f?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/BadSweetHorseradishBudStar-TJk2g8tP0oL9pHhW?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/FlirtyPunchyLeopardHeyGuys-sAsbvPsDjuE3GQ1G?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentHonestMagpieBlargNaut-MUncLZft0wgA74gR?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/HelpfulSquareQuailDogFace-mvMAt5fGgK0w7nTs?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/SpookyDeadTrayANELE-yvXKx6koCJjbfZLm?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/BenevolentColdbloodedGuanacoTBTacoRight-gMZiEt2RBisZPrme?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/CuriousTemperedWatermelonSeemsGood-4o-4lVbfgk0cSj5H?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/ConcernedDaintyCrabNerfBlueBlaster-FfCIgkY9Ie-2aEED?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/CalmSpinelessDogMVGame-4TERKGc6QagLKhlY?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/BloodyLittleCrocodileFeelsBadMan-hpXz1gBQ0RlP_BOr?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/BashfulExpensiveMartenPraiseIt-93F-adkiL_oeRAe8?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/RespectfulDepressedFriseeNotLikeThis-TIprzhiE5T2Qm9dH?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/YawningPeacefulPancakeHotPokket-QszT70GlkoMSSqOm?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/CloudyRelatedStinkbugBloodTrail-zOwyKC5tKvOpdxPK?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/IronicSparklingSoymilkOhMyDog-G8DBolY5J_fHJBHb?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/VastRealSalsifyDoritosChip-zU2VmQ3vQQOCVsvD?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/ColdComfortableVampireLitty-ggZp7ImOg5GC5As3?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/BovinePlainInternCharlietheUnicorn-TSL-F_Z_FSWP8SOS?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/PlausiblePlacidAniseCeilingCat-NLUFb7LqfGry5-jp?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/DeliciousAltruisticAsteriskTwitchRPG-eGsp_xhsvoLiTRdN?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/SlipperyAgreeableCatKappaClaus-ptvrEo4dfBIGI_g0?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/EntertainingGorgeousCocoaKappaWealth-P9Wmnk6BplGl7fhE?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1525970620
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1670200108
https://clips.twitch.tv/LuckyProductiveRedpandaHotPokket--EfQtF4eoFlkHAw5?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoisedAnnoyingLobsterChocolateRain-zladk8W0LO26EyCH?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/RelievedFrozenSquirrelOMGScoots-F6O74Fc8_s_l525V?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/DifferentRelentlessChipmunkYee-09U-CznptIfkbTmB?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/CourteousSilkyWalletStrawBeary-evx2Hyit6vg9yQ6Y?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConsiderateSpunkyPepperBibleThump-qhnLR7CY7Uv7HJ8A?tt_content=url&tt_medium=clips_api
https://www.twitch.tv/endzej_/clip/TalentedEnjoyablePigeonPMSTwin-dFdTLd7pdnqPUj0W?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1772092167Whoever Watched all of these you're a LEGEND <3 there could've been more posted but it's biga## library of clips to go through. Hope you enjoyed it.
Some might find certain clips impressive and others not. But since I've experienced all of these cool moments I'm a MASTER TRICKSTER (satire)
This year I'll pay my mods to clip more cause who knows how many cool moments have been missed. :((
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I don't believe these would be good for anyone.
BHVR wants Trickster to be more chase oriented and less frustrating on both sides. He's a complicated killer to balance but these changes would drive frustration to the max on each side.
1. 4.6m/s Trickster is always on top of the survivor losing little to no distance when played correctly. While shooting half a health state a second is fine, him being anything below 8 knife Trickster at 4.6m/s would be a huge problem not to mention ramp up. Ramp up and 6 knife Trickster would be fine for the 4.4 version. As a 4.6 killer I feel Trickster would make survivors feel exhausted. Every knife is a 50/50. 6 50/50s vs 8 50/50s / 12 50/50s vs 16 50/50s is a huge difference for the survivor especially because he's fast now. Making it 1 mistake would just make them go down a lot quicker. This referencing places where he's good at ( open area, short loops)
2. Anything below 15s decay will make the Trickster's life more miserable where he struggled the most (shack, main, Jungle gyms etc.) and even the tiles where he's fine now would become an issue (majority of rock loops and similar loops). Rendering his power useless in more than 50% of the tiles. Not to mention he's not a hitscan so his knives are very dodgable from range. Rendering people's snipes and hole shots pointless, basically handicapping yourself for going for them. Killing your own playstyle as well. The lower decay pushes " back rev Trickster play " to be the only way he'd get health states. As said before lower decay makes it so hold w is way stronger. It forces him to be at the mercy of a survivor. One pre drop, pre vault, stun... him going around, breaking the pallet, vaulting gives survivors enough distance that by the time he catches up the laceration is already gone. We've proven it with 10s, 12s is an extra 1.2 meters of distance at 4.6 which wouldn't do much for him. No, decay add ons are not a fix. Forgot mention that controller players are not as efficient as mouse and keyboard players. Rendering him again to be an only mouse and keyboard killer again.
3. Your main event suggestion solidifies him as just a weaker huntress. Completely removing his identity. Making him a huntress that has to shoot more projectiles and at the same time being able to lose power progression which would just further make people question his existence when there are better ranged killers. The devs want his power to be accessible and not feel like you're playing Dark Souls. Main event is an ammo saver ability that completely nullifies Trickster's mobility for the sake of saving knives. The no reload 4.4 required at best 69% accuracy out of 44 knives less out of 52 knives. According to your main event requirements that Trickster
Would have Main event meter at 2 charges average. Hitting 30 - missing 14 is 30 - 28 ( 2 charge loss per miss) equaling to 2 charges on average. For every miss you'd need to hit 3 knives to compensate. For the good Tricksters it took from 12-20 ammo to get a down at best. In your case 6 missed knives reset the entire main event meter to 0. Not to mention that you could potentially lose main event even if you got the timer because you wanted to do old main event tricks ( 5 knife etc.) just cause you missed a knife or 2.
Even the best Trickster main that did a 250+ winstreak while reloading in less than 10 matches is just baffled by your suggestions. Not to mention, not just the fact that main event is unobtainable (especially on controler) you've tied +50% add ons to it rendering them completely useless. The highest skill ceiling add on requiring a down in main event to replenish knives. Really? It makes me question whether you're really a Trickster main. Another fact BHVR changes Trickster to be chase oriented so could be less effective at preventing unhooks and such. Your main even stipulation encourages camping since in main event he takes a 1 health state a second enabling unhook prevention. If that's the only way people could get it they'll do it.
4. Forgot to mention that your kit goes against itself. Be rewarded for not missing but at the same time encouraged to rapid fire which lead to more misses.
Not to mention you'd suggest the killing of Trick blades when they're not an add on that isn't just free value or easy to use.
Trickster is not a hit and run killer to have hemorrhage or the oblivious effect add ons. Oblivious and hemorrhage will more likely encourage going back to the hook and tunneling.
Your suggestions will just amplify frustrations on both sides
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@dance said:
Thanks all. Glad to hear that for several of you The Trickster feels better after the most recent changes. For those who think he feels in a pretty good spot - is it accurate to say that the biggest pain point / concern is his Add-ons? Specifically that Memento Blades feels like a must-have and/or that the others are too weak to provide much variety?
For those who feel The Trickster still isn't quite how you would want him - I saw a few comments about 8 knives vs. 6 knives, notably around the ammo capacity staying the same even though more knives are needed. I just want to make sure - did I miss any major context around that?
We feel Memento Blades makes too much of a difference when it comes to Trickster's lethality. To avoid just nerfing people's favorite add-on on him, we could add some percentage to the base kit again and nerf the add-on itself since 10% is too much of a difference. In Main Event it adds an extra knife a second which could prevent the survivor from running to cover. Also, the memento blades make his throwing animation bugged again.
The add-ons that feel lackluster compared to the rest (especially Watch and Memento) are Edge of Revival Album, Cut Thru U Single, Fizz Spin Soda, Ji-Woon's Autograph, Bloody Boa, Trick Pouch.
Album is somewhat of a beginnerISH add-on. For Good players, the value of it was to 99 Main Event while using your Power and to get hits when survivors camp corners, pallets windows, etc. With the 8-knife Trickster and Main Event change this add-on became way less useful. It completely goes against his current base kit. The 0.5 laceration it provides doesn’t contribute to either the Main Event Meter or The Main Event Combo System. While it has its upside the downside is it nerfes your basekit power usage when going for the Add Ons value. Main Event being so frequent can seem unoticable since Album doesn’t build up Main Event nor the combo score resulting in inexperienced players Wasting a lot more knives for downs and using Main Event way less frequently. But the goal of the Trickster Changes is to make Main Event more frequent and be an ammo saver/ finisher mechanic. This add-on would need some tweaks. Give it a bigger splash radius, make it contribute either to the Main Event or to the Main Event Combo score, or give it an extra effect.
Single is a very situational add-on. Its value was seen mostly when survivors would be protecting their teammates. The benefits from it were to increase the knife damage per second, damaging the person we were chasing (ignoring the bodyblocks) and filling up the Main Event Meter faster. Now since Main Event comes by way faster single and Waiting for You Watch being in the state that it is right now, there’s no point in running Single. Watch as an add-on gives a little too much time back from a single knife and in scenarios where people body block Watch makes it so survivors allowing Trickster to shoot them makes Main Event not End until there are no more survivors to shoot at. 15 knife hits with Watch give you an entire 6 seconds of Main Event back.
With all of this in mind, we have to consider that Trickster has to use 2 more knives for a health state which also doesn’t benefit the add-ons much. My recommendation would be to make the add-on deal 100% laceration instead of 50%. Body blocks are way too situational might as well make the add-on stronger for those moments if we want people to consider even running it.
Soda and Autograph are a cool concept but don’t give any value to the Trickster. Equipping Tequilla with an E combo Score would give a longer Main Event than getting the Supreme Combo Alone. It makes the add-ons pointless to run. The only benefit for them being equipped is to secure more Blood points for reaching a better combo score since the increased combo window allows Trickster to be more careful with his knives. It should Either go back to the 7.4.0. PTB Effect but a bit stronger
( soda 3 knives faster to proc Main Event and AutoGraph 2)or it should have a different effect in total.Again PTB 7.4.0. Soda was not OP. Pairing it with 7.4.0. Death Throe Compilation made people think it’s Too Strong but IT WAS NOT. DTC value could get Triggered just by not missing 39 knives. Soda and Autograph as add-ons went against the combo score itself since the score goes up to 8 knives hit. Getting Main Event against a healthy survivor at 3 knives would not give Trickster a strong Main Event. He could correct it but the Main Event timer would be ticking. There would be a high chance that Trickster popping Main Event on a healthy survivor would result in the survivor losing a health state but reaching cover since the 3 Knife combo score doesn’t give that much extension. It would be a high-risk high reward playstyle either you down the survivor using low knives or you lose the survivor and punish yourself with a stagger since the combo score didn’t give you a strong main event with you shooting 3 knives.
Main Event at 5 Knives would probably need a main event extension add-on to function at all.
The Extra Knives add-ons feel underwhelming since they remain the same from his 4.4 version. 12 extra knives are 1 extra health state/ Main Event while before that were 2 extra health states aka an extra down. If those two add-ons together would make Trickster have 60 knives, they’d have a significant increase in usage.
Love NJ
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@dance said:
We're making some changes to The Trickster in today's hotfix. Please let us know what you think after the update goes live and you've had a chance to try them out!
The Trickster
- Decreased the base time between throws to 0.3 seconds (was 0.33)
- Increased the Main Event throw rate multiplier to 66% (was 33%)
- Increased the Main Event active duration to 6 seconds (was 5 seconds)
- Reverted the time before Laceration starts decaying to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds)
Overall good changes. I'd lower the numbers on Memento Blades and Waiting for You Watch a little bit since we have a 15s decay timer and those add ons increase his power level by a lot.
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At this moment Trickster feels somewhat playable when add-ons such as Memento Blades and Waiting For You Watch are equipped. Which makes him feel very add-on dependent. These 2 add-ons feel like the only ones that could help Trickster punish survivors who actively disrespect his power, which happens a lot. Hopefully, we get something similar to PTB Trickster 7.4.0 but with balanced IRI add-ons.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602725#Comment_3602725
don't worry, there's no plans to remove him being 4.6m/s!
If this is the plan could we have 7.4.0 PTB Trickster but with the current version of Death Throes Compilation and Photo Card?
Since the Iri add-ons were what made him problematic. The rest of his power seemed fine. It required high accuracy to take advantage of Main Event. Otherwise, if Trickster wouldn't get the value he'd just stagger himself, lose distance and laceration by the time he catches up.
Trickster was always strong when the survivor is in the open without cover but these changes make him weaker in Higher Wall Loops. Him downing survivors fast who are mispositioned should not justify his nerfs. Fast Main Event doesn't mean much if you don't have LOS of the survivor.
It didn't seem like we properly tested Trickster since it was the same day as Chucky's PTB version and from what we've seen it was mostly Trickster's Iri Add-ons being showcased. Alongside Soda was put in with Death Throes when DTC didn't need Soda to maintain its value unless the Trickster player would miss 39 knives per 44 ammo.
If we were to bring back Soda's old effect it could have a downside which could decrease his Main Event Activation Window.
If he's going to have a 10-second decay which is a hard punishment, his power should make up for the drawback. He's the only killer who could lose his power's value passively without survivors having to use an item.
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@dance said:
Hi all,
For The Trickster, we are still looking into the slow throwing speed, on both base and Main Event.
The laceration decay timer makes the throw rate an issue. But if we want to keep the 10-second decay Trickster's throw rate per second needs to be half of the number of knives it takes for half state. If he's a 6 knife Trickster he should shoot 3 knives per second. If he's an 8 knife Trickster he should shoot at least 4 knives a second. What he is right now completely goes against what was mentioned in the original PTB patch notes which was "We wanted to focus on this rapid-fire ‘machine gun’ gameplay for this update ". Now he shoots slower than ever. Even the Release date Trickster shot faster.
Another thing is if he's 8 knife Trickster Main Event Throw rate should be a lot faster than the base throw rate otherwise survivors will continue to body block him and he wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
Making him have to equip add-ons to be somewhat playable is not a fix to an issue. Unless We got a better add-on to use until the next bug-fix patch comes.
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(WHILE EDITING MY COMMENT I ACCIDENTALLY PRESSED THE DELETE BUTTON )
His nerfs synergize so well that they automatically nerf the “BUFFS” he received, making them unnoticeable, lackluster…
The Trickster shooting 3 knives per second is underwhelming since it takes 8 knives to injure resulting in him having to dedicate 3 seconds of perfect power usage to take a health state.
The 10-second decay would only make sense if he was a 6-knife Trickster resulting in him having to hit all of his knives perfectly for 2 seconds to get a health state. 4.6m/s is neat but in certain loops is irrelevant since using his power requires him to be 3.86 m/s for a while so he could get the health state without having to use his bat. The more knives he has to hit to injure while shooting slower means, he needs to invest more time having LOS of the Survivor and being 3.86m/s for longer. This gives survivors a lot of distance even more when they vault a window or drop a pallet. Him vaulting the window/ breaking a pallet/ getting stunned is arguably 25%-40% of his decay timer if not more. Resulting in him losing his Laceration progress just before he catches up to the survivor. Rendering his power useless at high wall loops... As players would say if I wanted to play an M1 killer I would play Trapper.
Old 4.4 Trickster arguably was more threatening since he needed to have line of sight of the survivor for at least ~2 seconds to injure/down because of his amped-up throw rate while this one needs a lot more than that.
PTB Trickster was fine the only things that needed to be changed were Photo Card and Death Throes Compilation.
Getting ME at 6 knives wasn't the issue nor was 4 knives per second bas or 6 knives per second main event. The Iri add-ons were the only issues.
Soda may have looked Overpowered but wasn't. The issue with Soda was that it enabled the effect of Death Throes faster. On its own, it gave him Main Event faster but Main Eventing a healthy survivor was and still is risky since he shot 6 knives a second in it (on ptb) while a health state is 8 knives, if there are enough LOS blockers the survivors could use the speed boost from losing a health state to run around the corner, Trickster would get staggered for 3 seconds and by the time he catches up all his laceration is gone.
Not to mention he's the same walking speed in Main Event as before which is base walking speed with knives. (3.86m/s)
Every time Trickster ends Main Event he gets a 3-second stagger effect where he can't use his knives. Thus not getting value from it would make it so it didn't matter how fast you got if you didn't use it well. I will admit the decay timer makes Trickster players think about their ME usage more.
The skill expression of PTB Trickster was how effective is your Main Event. Could you manage to take 2 health states with it within such a short time period? PTB Trickster would shoot 6 knives per second for 5 seconds, which is 30 knives. With or without Soda add-on against a healthy survivor when you'd get Main Event you'd need to hit 9-16 out of 30 within a 5-second period while the survivor changes his movement speed twice. (going from normal 4m/s to 6m/s for 1.8m/s when losing a health state and back to 4m/s again).All of that just to compensate for still having 44 knives but your knives being effectively weaker.
Current Trickster's Main Event shoots slower we don't know if it's a bug or not but it makes Main Event effect even weaker.
Current Trickster can have his power actively disrespected (survivors can aggressively body-block him because he can't do anything about it) since he doesn't shoot fast enough base and in ME, takes too many knives to take a health state all while still having 44 ammo.
Examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/InventiveAthleticBobaBCouch-7ZXTiyA4wrjEXw2hI've had to hit every single knife to be able to down them. If Feng was healthy I wouldn't be able to down her. If it was more survivors I'd be powerless since I don't have enough knives to down them (44 Knives = 5 health states = 2.5 downs with 100% accuracy) and ME shoots so slow for a short period of time.
https://www.twitch.tv/wacek134/clip/FantasticTenaciousPizzaTBCheesePull-K6PG0ImYcyko0AZG?featured=false&filter=clips&range=7d&sort=timeOld Trickster in this situation would've taken 3 health states AT LEAST.
Hopefully, the feedback helps in understanding the issues with Trickster
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His nerfs synergize so well that his buffs don't make a difference ( his buffs are automatically nerfed )
The Trickster shooting 3 knives per second is underwhelming since it takes 8 knives to injure resulting in him having to dedicate 3 seconds of perfect power usage to take a health state.
The 10-second decay would only make sense if he was a 6-knife Trickster resulting in him having to use hit all of his knives perfectly for 2 seconds to get a health state. 4.6m/s is neat but in certain loops is irrelevant since using his power requires him to be 3.86 m/s for a while so he could get the health state without having to use his bat. The more knives he has to hit to injure while shooting slower means, he needs to invest more time having LOS of the Survivor and being 3.86m/s for longer. This gives survivors a lot of distance even more when they vault a window or drop a pallet. Him vaulting the window/ breaking a pallet/ getting stunned is arguably 25%-40% of his decay timer if not more. Resulting in him losing his Laceration progress just before he catches up to the survivor. Rendering his power useless at high wall loops... As players would say if I wanted to play an M1 killer I would play Trapper.
Old 4.4 Trickster arguably was more threatening since he needed to have line of sight of the survivor for at least ~2 seconds to injure/ down because of his amped-up throw rate while this one needs a lot more than that.
PTB Trickster was fine the only things that needed to be changed were Photo Card and Death Throes Compilation.
Getting ME at 6 knives wasn't the issue nor was 4 knives per second base or 6 knives per second main event. The Iri add-ons were the only issues.
Soda may have looked Overpowered but wasn't. The issue with Soda was that it enabled the effect of Death Throes faster. On its own, it gave him Main Event faster but Main Eventing a healthy survivor was and still is risky since he shot 6 knives a second in it (on ptb) while a health state is 8 knives, if there are enough LOS blockers the survivors could use the speed boost from losing a health state to run around the corner, Trickster would get staggered for 3 seconds and by the time he catches up all his laceration is gone.
Not to mention he's the same walking speed in main event as before which is base walking speed with knives. (3.86m/s)
Every time Trickster ends Main Event he gets a 3-second stagger effect where he can't use his knives. Thus not getting value from it would make it so it didn't matter how fast you got if you didn't use it well. I will admit the decay timer makes Trickster players think about their ME usage more.
The skill expression of PTB Trickster was how effective is your Main Event. Could you manage to take 2 health states with it within such a short time period? PTB Trickster would shoot 6 knives per second for 5 seconds, which is 30 knives. With or without Soda add-on against a healthy survivor when you'd get Main Event you'd need to hit 9-16 out of 30 knives within 5 seconds while the survivor changes his movement speed twice. ( going from normal 4m/s to 6m/s for 1.8m/s when losing a health state and back to 4m/s again). All of that just to compensate for still having 44 knives but your knives being effectively weaker.
Current Trickster's Main Event shoots slower we don't know if it's a bug or not but it makes Main Event effect even weaker.
Current Trickster can have his power actively disrespected ( survivors can aggressively body block him because he can't do anything about it) since he doesn't shoot fast enough base and in ME, takes too many knives to take a health state all while still having 44 ammo.
Examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/InventiveAthleticBobaBCouch-7ZXTiyA4wrjEXw2hI've had to hit every single knife (18/20) to be able to down them. If Feng was healthy I wouldn't be able to down her. If it was more survivors I'd be powerless since I don't have enough knives to down them (44 knives=5 health states= 2.5 downs with perfect aim) and ME shoots so slow for a short period of time.
https://www.twitch.tv/wacek134/clip/FantasticTenaciousPizzaTBCheesePull-K6PG0ImYcyko0AZG?featured=false&filter=clips&range=7d&sort=timeOld Trickster would've taken 3 health states if not down them both in the 2nd clip
I've tried to keep it short and sweet hopefully this helped
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@UndeddJester said:
Console Noob Here, from my layman's perspective this looks like a very good analysis, I was able to follow very well. I do have a few questions, since chances to talk to high level Trickster players don't come by often...
From what I've heard in discussions around Trickster, a lot of Survivor's get frustrated playing against Trickster because of his ability to churn through health states from camping and mowing down the unhooking and the unhooked player, and also how breaking LoS and using pallets doesn't tend to save you cause he keeps chipping you down once he's on you. From your concerns about his lost strengths these critiques/frustrations seem to be justified?
Assuming so, you talk a lot about him being an altruism stomper, someone who can cut down survivors going for unhooks, especially hard punishing basement saves by chewing through player health states off hook. Would it be preferable to be pushed away from this style of play?
You also mention how the new 10 second decay hurts him a lot because it means he has to respect pallets more and has to be very accurate with his Main Event in order secure downs due to the slow rate he fires daggers at base, combined with the number of daggers it takes to down. Doesn't having to be accurate with your knives and knowing exactly when to pull them up at specific loops to maintain you laceration (easier at 4.6m/s) require skill expression?
Lastly does the fast charge of Main Event give a strong anti loop by virtue of the mind games having it on hand provides? Surely the constant threat of it does something to influence survivor behaviour at loops?
Not all critiquing the analysis, just asking because I believe the goal of BHVRs rework was to: -
- Help Tricksters map traversal and chase at loops with 4.6m/s (Pretty clear cut, but I'd assume to make him less reliant on hook camping/tunneling).
- Bring up his Main Event to occur more naturally. (I'd assume to free up Trickster players to use their knives when then want to, instead of having to constantly count around their proc of Main Event)
- Encourage a more machine gun rapid fire style of gameplay (as having to dodge knives constantly, which the rapid main event charge, no recoil, higher laceration count, and faster recovery from laceration all supports)
Are you against these tenets?
Apologies for the wall!
LOS breaking is Tricksters counterplay, it only doesn't matter if survivors don't keep their distance. But that's commenting on survivors mispositioning and not Trickster's power.
The counterplay to Trickster taking health states at a pallet goes the same as for Huntress, DeathSlinger, and any killer that has a lunge type of attack or a forward projectile. Survivors shouldn't allow these types killers to see their Pallet Drop animation otherwise it will result in a hit. If you stun them you get rewarded as a survivor with free distance. If Trickster couldn't punish survivors for misplaying pallets then his power is without purpose and any pallet loop would make him an m1 killer.
Trickster currently is an altruistic punisher; which enables him to at times be a territorial killer like many on the Killer Roster. The anti-camp mechanic stops him from just staying at the hook, he could only punish them if they encourage him to stay by immediately going for the unhook right after the hook happened or deciding to loop him around the hooked the survivor. But he still has to be very accurate and careful with his knives in order to punish their survivors for misplaying against him.
The reason we say Altruism stomper is due to a majority of Killers at any point could get body blocked by a survivor and have their chase ended because they can't proceed forward without taking a health state, while Trickster can to a degree deal with that, but again he has to have enough knives and be accurate enough. In that sense, he's like a ranged Bubba but has to hit all his shots to down them all while Bubba just chainsaw sweeps them.
With these changes, Trickster's power is a lot weaker as it would encourage survivors to disrespect his power since he can't punish 3 survivors for body-blocking him, not enough knives to down them all. It would require extreme accuracy. Your top-tier Trickster main right now has around 55-60% accuracy. Removing recoil won't help too much since you still need to hone in and aim well, he's not hitscan-based but a projectile character so a degree of prediction is always required alongside travel-time.
4.6 m/s only matters for map traversal, in loops his movement while throwing knives matters more since you're trying to minimize time in chase. 4.6 doesn't remedy the 10s decay since, over 10 seconds you get back 6 meters of distance. Distance shots are becoming less possible, while they already were inoptimal, meaning less experimentation with the killer is possible.
Making him similar to Back Rev Billy in a way.
The new Trickster will be decent at what he's already good at, but worse where he struggles the most.
Main event is only good when there is an element of surprise since you're locked into a walking speed that is slower than the survivor, if a survivor uses an exhaustion perk or loses a health state they're even faster than you and break LOS sooner. This leaves you to end main event and stagger yourself for 3 seconds. Which punishes you more when the decay timer is shorter.
Him being more spammy will require him to punish mistimed pallet drops than before.