colossusqw
colossusqw
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047664#Comment_4047664
Well that been said, if your opinion is that stealth killers should only play on indoor map then I don't agree.
I don't believe that stealth killers should only play indoors, but i do believe people should be able to specifically select to have a higher chance of indoors vs outdoors spaces, instead of it being on a specific map basis. An Oni on lery's getting stuck and taken out of power on every corner is as bad as a ghostface on yamaoka estate.
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@Elan said:
Personally I would change map offerings to prevent specific maps. it's doable and would be way less competitive strategy.
It would still not fix anything, there are tons of maps that just negate a few killers' powers, having to choose just one just means the other ones will likely still be there to deny half of the stealth killer rooster for example.
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@brewingtea said:
I think map offerings should have a higher percentage for killers. It feels thematically appropriate for killers to stack the deck against survivors without allowing survivors to pick their bully maps too frequently.
IMO it's less to do with feeling "stacked" and more with the fact that survivors are incredibly less map dependant than killers on average, and that a good map vs a bad map is a significantly different thing for a few killers, some having most of their potential power denied.
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@kit_mason said:
More Nurse players need to start using Matchbox so the playerbase understands how terribly 4.4 Nurse would go.
It's so boring for the survivors to just get walked down until a forced animation gives the nurse a blink hit guaranteed. It's boring for the nurse too - that's why they dont run Matchbox - but it's still bad all around.
They generally don't run matchbox because it IS a net loss for them, even with the only downside being only one blink. Matchbox makes nurse both easier to get into for new players and lowers the skill ceiling a bit by capping how precise the nurses can be with it. You see a lot of newer nurse players using it, but few high level nurses, because as much as it makes her closer to a normal killer, it also reduces her ability to do crazy ######### on the right hands. If it had extra nerfs to make getting the blinks not regen when in line of sight and such, like the original suggestion says, it wouldn't be a simple game of "hope for an animation lock". Just look at spirit. Spirit can run you down and eventually guarantee hits, but good players aren't just walking you down until they can hit you, because it's not efficient or beneficial to the killer to waste that much time and pressure trying to guarantee a single hit.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4037949#Comment_4037949
Are they? Looks over at Renato...
There's like 2, maybe 3 twink or twink adjacent folks rn, i'd count that as an eggregiously low amount. Besides, Twink Sable would correct the universal imbalance by giving us a goth dude.
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I feel like you dont really need to restrict nurse from the perks themselves, just make it so she can't see auras while charging her power.
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Unironically twink Sable would go hard. Male characters that arent big hunky dudes are a criminally underexplored market in this game.
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As of now: even Adertha went and made a video on it.
https://youtu.be/JHzIeoVNlVk?si=zNC34Wmu1v3U73jy
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@KeefCheif said:
agreed OP, does anyone know why they changed it like this to begin with? Seems way more complicated/difficult to understand exactly what the terror radius will be like this.
Likely they wanted to make it percent based so it wouldn't mess with what they wanted to do with furtive chase, or they just really disliked the effect on the few 16m terror radius killers, but even on old Myers tier 2, when that was one of the only killers it was a 'good' pick at, it wasn't meta.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029480#Comment_4029480
I guess with the recent TR changes to Ghostface, Pig, and Skull Merchant (32 → 24), players started using M&A on these killers to have a constant 16meter TR. The developers probably saw the higher pickrate and disliked it (or the slightly variety some killers suddenly had)
Honestly, i don't get why that would even be bad. No one was complaining about it, no one disliked how they were.
If they really want to keep it a percentage based thing, they should either increase the percentage to like 33%, make your red stain invisible outside chase (would be actually really in tune with the rest of the perk and bring it's value slightly up considering it's not meta by any stretch of the imagination) or both. -
@Elan said:
Anticamp didnt need changes, antislug? You can abandon. But no antitunnel feels awfull. Just make it so no survivor can be killed before 4th hook. Therefore you can still get rid of someone fast, but not by three hooking them in a row.
I do feel like while slugging in general was fine, specifically slugging to deny hatch was absolutely not. If there's two players left, they should get unbreakable to stop people from denying hatch.
I also don't like what they did for tunneling, instead of 15 seconds of endurance that people more often than not just use agressively, they should give you 10 seconds of 50% haste, 5 seconds of endurance, and no scratch marks. That would make actually getting away from hook and healing much more feasible. -
I had made a post on ghostface a bit back, and came up with this:
- Revealing Ghost Face should take longer if you are more than 16 meters away.
- If you are in stealth mode and more than 8 meters from the nearest unmarked target, you gain 5 or 10% haste.
Like this you get a ghostface that gets a lot more value out of stealth, but not necessarily chase value, moreso map mobility. You can use it in chase, but only if you take your time stalking first. This would actually buff ghostface's stealth by incentivising marks and remaining in stealth mode.
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I had made a post on ghostface a bit back, so i might as well just share a few things here:
- Revealing Ghost Face should take longer if you are more than 16 meters away.
- If you are in stealth mode and more than 8 meters from the nearest unmarked target, you gain 5 or 10% haste.
These changes would make ghost face more consistent at map mobility, being able to pop out of different spots and stalk from varied angles, whilst still needing to rely on stealth and marking to properly chase survivors, as they can't use the extra mobility in chase otherwise.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
Put it back to being 4.4, it was fine that way. You can still have it as that if you use the memorial flower, so Bhvr obviously don't think its OP for his stalker mode to move at that speed.
So just make it base kit.
That's fair, yeah.
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I feel like most of these balancing issues come from just how quick perks and toolboxes can make gens go.
It's not fun to have people with brand new parts in a game and have the first gen be gone less than 50 seconds into the game.
If they want to incentivize not tunneling, I genuinely think some way of limiting gen speeds while all players are alive could work. In tandem with nerfing the nurse and blight, that is.
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God, give us back our old M&A, or at least buff the reduction to 33% so that it remains the same on 24m terror radius killers
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Yeah I've played against him a lot and he feels a lot more scary in 2v8 despite all the extra pallets etc, makes it more important to bring him out of cloak when you can.
Yeah, its surprising how a little bit of map mobility that doesnt go into chase helps him feel just better and scarier. It's fun to play as, and very scary in a fun way to go against.
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@Aznex said:
Monitor & Abuse was perfectly fine as it was. BHVR literally changes things that aren't broken. Of all the perks that are in desperate need of changes like Insidious or Territorial Imperative, what put Monitor & Abuse higher on that priority list? Did Eric Pope lose against a 4m TR Ghost Face and said "Yeah this is OP we need to nerf it"?
At least the new Furtive Chase (assuming the changes go through) can be combo'd with current Monitor & Abuse to recreate that, but needing to spend half my build to do that when one perk was enough is honestly stupid.
Perks like Insidious never getting an effect actually useful outside of camping, Furtive Chase being gutted.. but they go and nerf M&A.
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It's worth noting, even the PTB's gutted Furtive Chase has better potential than this version of monitor… eugh.
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Edit: i got no clue how this ended up here. Was originally an empty comment.
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@Langweilig said:
Monitor needed a buff and not a nerf. It happens far too often that things get unnecessarily nerfed.
Absolutely, and its a shame since its such an interesting perk. I would personally love something like a 33% reduction so that it is an actually noticeable effect independent of which killer you're using, instead of being the old static 8 meters that were only ever thrown on Myers.
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@Mandy said:
There is a very small amount of people in the top level of play, a game has to be more balanced for the majority - which is the mid range, balancing for the highest level would leave the majority of players in a pretty difficult spot.
Despite the rhetoric that everyone is at the soft cap, very very few actually are anywhere near it - it's not the "easy to get to" that people believe it is. we have to consider the game as a whole. And whilst we do think of how things could be used at the higher end of play, it cannot decide the balancing for the whole game.
Even if the original comment is incorrect on that regard, a lot of the changes that have been proposed and discussed recently do seem to cater to low level play in a way that is detrimental overall.
A good example would be the way the slugging changes are laid out. Yes, stopping killers from slugging would be excellent, however there are many spots in the current game, where facing a mid tier to very good survivor team completely stops you from being able to grab a survivor. Pallet saves(which are abundant in the maps with the most amount of slugging for example) and flashlight saves make for situations where a killer literally cannot pick up a downed survivor without a guaranteed escape. And now that we'll get slugged survivors being able to get up you might actually be locked off getting any hook states when against a coordinated team, which will likely not be much of an issue at low level, but will absolutely be frustrating to every killer that faces even slightly coordinated teams with flashbangs, flashlights, or that stop inside pallets when when injured, so that they may be downed on the pallet to deny grabs.
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That blur and fog not only made the maps a lot cooler, it also helps make stuff like Michael or Ghostface's stalking a lot more creepy looking, and stealth in general feeling more spooky. 10/10, please return the old visuals..
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@Elan said:
They should decrease number of pallets further, less pallets than before density update. Half killers that don't care about pallets or have strong antiloop will make no sense in term of resource counterplay and the other half that suffers from every pallet will suffer even more. There are about 15 pallets currently on Borgo and i feel that 10 would be balanced. Gideon has about 20 pallets, they can lower it to 10 as well and maybe add more windows to make it less of "suck your vault perks".
Uhhh... no?
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The pallet changes helped with absolutely nothing. They didn't affect the killers that needed balancing like nurse or blight at all, since what makes them strong is exactly being able to bypass a lot of the pallets with mobility, meanwhile the grand majority of killers that already struggled have been overwhelmingly negatively affected by it.
It's a bad change that only makes already weak killers weak and does nothing to balance strong killers. -
@brewingtea said:
Downvoted because, if you want coordinated SWFs to be less powerful, just nerf them. Don't boost killer and leave solo queue EVEN FURTHER in the dust…
Also, can survivors get anything before we start talking about killer buffs to compensate??? They already nerfed OTR and gave killers extra HUD elements after yanking the last PTB. It seems like a bad time to ask for even more buffs.
Honestly though, how would you even go about nerfing sfws? The idea about multiple gens having a penalty is specific to target behavior that mainly happens on swfs, since they spread people across gens while having one dedicated chaser at a time. Besides, we've had a multitude of things on killer side balanced around S tier killers, to the detriment of every other killer. The same isn't really true when it comes to swfs, solo q still suffers, but behavior does nothing that would actually affect the swfs..
By all means, nerf the S tier killers, im all for that, but it is not a consistent, nor balanced, to gut a ton of killer qol and features based on S tier killers being overly oppressive and unfun with them, and then not even consider doing the same thing to cap the effectiveness of full survive with friends teams.
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@Zuiphrode said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014724#Comment_4014724
Next you're going to tell us you're a 12,000 hour killer main and he never has problems hitting all four survs, spreading hook states, and getting 4ks all the time!
seriously people aren't fooled by these surv main posts.Not 12 hooking is tunneling!
It's actually balanced that for like 60% of killers ingame you might need to face swfs that will spread around and make 3 gens pop during one chase with little to no way to apply enough map pressure to stop them!
These forums are something else man..
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@DeeBeeDeeAddict said:
Two of your suggestions I think would just attribute to tunneling more than anything.
Your second point:
- An incentive to spread hooks around, say, "showing the players who have at most one hook for 7 seconds once you hook someone for the first time" would be pretty neat and helpful.^^^This would just lead to tunneling two survivors instead of one. The killer would be incentivized to juggle two survivors if they want to play optimally. Or, as I like to call it, "diet tunneling" or "tunneling lite." You hook a survivor for the first time and are shown the aura of somebody you've already hooked? What do you do with that information? You go after somebody who has already been hooked. I also don't know how this would differ much from the basekit BBQ that was proposed on the PTB, other than not having a distance component. And to be fair, the basekit BBQ on the PTB felt fine as-is.
Your third point:
- Turning the system that makes gens progress slower the more people work on them into a global thing that applies to all gens. An example being: The person that's working on the gen with the most progress makes progress at normal rate, the person working on the second gen with most progress works at a 75% rate, the third at a 50% rate and so on.^^^This actually rewards tunneling. Because in this scenario, the survivors can't even attempt to bang out gens if the killer is fixated on one survivor. It actually penalizes survivors for doing the one thing they can currently do to effectively counter tunneling. And that is to bang out gens while the killer hyperfixates on one survivor.
What was introduced on the PTB was fine. Some form of basekit BBQ and Pop as an incentive to the killer. I get your frustration about not wanting to go full meta if you want to 4k with Trapper or Wraith or some other non-S-Tier killer… but the game shouldn't be balanced around wanting to use a meme build on a C-Tier killer and get a 4k every time. If you want to play a killer with a less-than lethal kit… you might have to run some gen slowdown. Or at least a build that has good synergy with the killer's power.
If you think juggling hooks between 2 players is tunneling, idk what to tell you. Thats not what the word means at all! Besides, having at most one hook means if you do it to 2 people you won't see them in the 7 seconds system anymore, it does actually reward you for going for everyone at least once.
Actually, back to that first part... how does "juggling hooks between survivors" constitute tunneling?? Not every game has a perfect spread of hooks, and even by the insanely punitive ptb standards, killing someone on 6th hook was fine. Do people not know what tunneling means anymore?
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
Gen speeds are certainly a tough one to balance. In the hands of swfs generators fly while the dedicated looper keeps a killers attention. In solo que generators only fly if someone isnt going down in seconds, otherewise they feel like they take an eternity without some kinda perk or toolbox, especially against someone you know will see you across the map very soon, and can cross the map very quickly. But even with random people the team either atleast finnishes all the gens before dieing or escaping, or they barely get 1 done before its over lol
I do agree to some extent, the reason i chose the gen slowdown methods i did is because of a few reasons to do with how solo vs swf operates, mainly that at least from my experience(both playing and watching a lot of streams on people playing), multi-genning is a mostly swf thing. Most of the time, solo players are either on one gen, spread around doing a multitude of tasks such as trying to unhook, doing chases, healing or just hiding, while swfs tend to deliberately work on multiple gens at once(often with items and addons to help doing so even faster), which is only really balanced against the higher tier killers with some level of slugging/tunneling involved (note that i mean balanced here, not fun, because it really isn't fun for anybody).
Personal experience isn't an encompasing thing, and shouldn't be a marker for everything, though at least for this part they make me think specifically nerfing going for multiple gens at once would have a much bigger impact on swfs than solo queues, and the same for lower tier killers that cannot contend the pressure. The same applies for not adding something like basekit pop goes, which would mostly mess up solo queue and help already very strong killers, and getting something more passive like deadlock instead.
And yes, i did bring this up because i WANT anti tunneling and anti slugging changes very much, but i also don't want te already messy balance of less than great killers to be completely bonked over. -
######### it. Make it basekit. Who cares about slaughtering strike. Make Myers see people while stalking and be dangerous in chase otherwise. That would be more fun than what we have.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012850#Comment_4012850
i wouldnt pay attention to downvotes, people will downvote literally anything just because they can….wouldnt be surprised if this comment gets downvoted tbh lol
Honestly, fair, kinda funny that people will downvote with such ambiguity that you can't know which side they think is bad...
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Absolutely, though I do wish we also had help for killers like they wanted to do. The gen kick buff they planned seemed interesting, but it not being passive slowdown (ie being a pop goes instead of a deadlock) made it really mostly help the already good killers that didn't need it.
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As someone that tries to spread hooks as much as possible, i can confidently say unless you play something like nurse there is just no way to apply pressure against coordinated teams nowadays. Running into even slightly coordinated teams will have you finding every gen you go towards abandoned since people already pre-ran and hid, and with spreading everyone around gens like this someone like ghostface has basically no recourse that doesn't suck for the survivors. The reason both good killers AND bad killers are resorting to these tactics nowadays is because they are the few strategies that do work. You simply cannot contend with the speed 4 people do gens at.
I absolutely agree, hard tunneling sucks. But with the current balancing, simply removing tunneling options without addressing the fact that killers have little else they can do to alleviate generator pressure would completely break killer. Just as playing unfun strategies needs nerfing, playing fair needs to be rewarded to the point that a player with the same skill as the average skill of the survivor team should be able to get hooks and kills with most killers WITHOUT tunneling.
TLDR: Yes, make changes to descentivise tunneling, but also look into why tunneling happens and make changes to reward killers playing fairily, and slow down gens to the point 'mid' killers can actually contend with gen pressure. -
The division between the upvotes and downvotes is pretty interesting, (currently it's 4 upvotes to 3 downvotes) though especially for the downvotes, it can be a bit confusing to know which part of it you dislike. Is it the idea of anti tunneling/slugging changes in general? The proposed counterbalance to gen speeds? Both? Something else entirely that i'm missing?
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Just to be clear, that's not the ONLY thing i want done to Myers, but genuinely this need to put down any stealth from his tier 2 is very baffling and frankly quite unfun. Revert it all for all i care, just, please, give the man a bone, if you revert him, make tier 2 his starting point but with undetectable..
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One of the most used things from old Myers was mixing the dead rabbit addon with monitor and abuse to keep him at a terror radius nearing 5 meters. This basically gave him discount undetectable on what was his old 'Pursuer Mode' and EVEN then myers was still on the bottom list power wise. I really don't understand why pursuer and stalker are separate when both old Myers and Ghostface had 4.6m/s stealth and were STILL bad killers.
As much as i like the idea of swapping between pursuer and stalker conceptually, just like the old doctor, it feels legitimately overbloated and clunky to navigate or get any value out of, and Myers would not be anywhere near too strong by just merging stalker and pursuer's strengths into a single mode, as well as giving him old tier 3 instead of whatever this current one is.