Woolphi
Woolphi
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- Woolphi
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1809416#Comment_1809416
This thread is about twins slugging. it's in the title. Please read.
I know it is about them, I was talking with someone and you jump in, saying things that were not even right. And YOU talked about forever freddy, and YOU talked about unfun things. I'm just making a point here.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1808794#Comment_1808794
You mean unfun things like slugging? Yea, that is what the thread was about.
Like forever freddy. Slugging is necessary not only on twins, is not killer specific, they are just more efficient on doing so.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1806664#Comment_1806664
I did interpret everything just fine.
Why do you think it is ok for you to assume they wont be used together but it is not ok for me to assume they will?
This thread is not about things that are unfun to face that survivors use, if you read the title, it's about the twins being good at slugging.
So why did you start talking about unfun things that survivor had to face.
You keep changing the subject, then just says that doesn't matter. You clearly don't know what you are talking about or even how to make an argument, you just keep throwing things without context and when it gets nowhere you just says that it isn't relevant.
Mate, just stop.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805906#Comment_1805906
Ask anyone how fun it would be to go against 4 slowdown perks. Anyone who isn't bias would say it would be unfun. If you need 4 slowdown perks it means you arent pressuring gens and just need to get better.
You need to improve your interpretation, I'm been saying that we need more options, and you keep making excuses.
Don't talk about bias, you are being hypocritical.
Having more slow down perks doesn't mean they will all be used together. Is like assuming survivors will build a 4 healing perks build. It doesn't even mean that they will have synergy, like most survivors healing perks already don't have, and both the regress gen perk already doesn't have.
When I said that there is unfun things that killer has to face, you just shrugged off, there will always be unfun things to play against.
Actually read this time, please.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805645#Comment_1805645
Be thinking killers have a lot of gen defense perks means I find it amazing and fun that survivors take 4 second chance perks. Yes. and 1+1=3
just comparing something that YOU said is unfun for survs but was taken out, and something that is unfun for the killers and still here.
Mate, you you want to be petty it won't go anywhere, you have no argument, and are trying to be banal. I'm done.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805555#Comment_1805555
No one will want to play survivor if the killer brings 4 perks that regress gens. Why do you think people complained about forever freddy?
Killers are different, forever freddy had slow down IN his power.
If the killer brings 4 regress gen perks, normally they have no synergy, like pop and ruin, and their build will lack other areas, like perks for chase or info.
And yeah, you must think that the killer find it amazing and really fun when survivors take 4 second chances perks, better yet, 4 survivors with 4 second chance perks, must be a hoot.
Btw, they just got another one with the new survivor.
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@Crowman said:
Keys are no where near as bad as Moris. We can stop acting like they are absolute equals in power and deserved to be addressed at the same time.
Keys are going to get nerfed, just be patient.
They are. People just ignore the fact that the killer has to down you twice to use it, and act like the killer can just instakill survivors the whole match.
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@Mushwin said:
Sorry but Mori's NEEDED to be nerfed, it's tiring and pathetic to be one hooked then mori'd in 5mins, wooh hoo!
5 mins is really long time in a match, and the killer needs to down you twice to use the mori.
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@maaadinsomniac said:
Unbreakable meta confirmed? Yeah, it's annoying, it's like 80%+ of my games against Twins, slug contest.
Unbreakable is meta since,at least, 2018 mate.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1802847#Comment_1802847
Not all perks need to regress gens to help you with gens. You should know that.
It's not what I'm saying at all, we need a variety of perks to choose, and viable regression perks are lacking, we need more or else every match will have or pop or ruin/undying when the killers can afford the perks, some killers will take both.
The thing is, we have a lot of perks that slow the game down, but they do it in different ways than actually regressing the gens, and the ones that actually regress gens are meta for a reason, we need more of those.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1800006#Comment_1800006
POP, Undying, Ruin, Corrupt, Dying Light, Thrilling, Discordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer.
Perks that you say that actually regress the gen: POP,Ruin,
Perks that you say that doesn't regress the gen: Undying, Corrupt, D. L., Thrilling, Discordance (REALLY?), Surveillance (again, REALLY?), Tinkerer.
Killers need more perks that actually regress the gens. As strong as Ruin and POP.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794760#Comment_1794760
And killers have a billions of ways to slow gens down and they still complain about "genrushing". Different sides of the same coin.
Billions? really? Killers have only 2 realiable perks, pop and ruin/undying, if they had more it wouldn't be the choice almost every match.
Gen rushing is not a thing, that is the only thing survivors HAVE to do.
Gen speeds are the thing that is causing all the unfun things that survivors complain. If the Killers had more time to do stuff they wouldn't need to tunnel and slugg. They have to be efficient if they want to win.
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@MidniteWolfy said:
Its kinda sad tbh cause even high profile twitch streamers who have NEVER played dirty before this point (a specific one I'm thinking of) have turned to camping with this new killer, on the reasoning that that was what this killer was designed to do. And honestly.. they're right. This killer excels at the camping game.
My solution to this problem is a bit more comprehensive than what most people are suggesting.
I think that there should be a total rehaul on survivor perks. Right now there are too many perks for too many nuanced effects. A lot of perk effects should be compiled so that you can will rarely ever have a perk without some use. For example: Botany knowledge should allow you to also stifle bleeding on yourself/friendly targets (with a cooldown). Borrowed time should also have Babysitter blended in. Leader and Prove Thyself should be one perk. Fixated should allow you to walk without triggering traps/alerting victor. Etc
How does this tie into the Twins? Well, if there were more utility from common perks, you could potentially run a healer set that can help with bleeding - which would help with victor. Using borrowed time wouldn't just save you from a hit, but also help you from being tracked by the killer at least for a few seconds. Iron will could be combined with Lucky Break. I dunno if you're feeling what I'm saying but - using other perks rather than the meta perks should be optional and fun and if they have helpful effects for more than just 1 killer, that would be awesome.
Look at Sole Survivor for example. This perk would kill for slugging killers with Deerstalker or wallhack myers. But why would anyone pick those perks now, if it only works for a single scenario? Having compiled perks would make the game more fun and exciting and help with tons of new situations that we haven't experienced yet. Presently I try to run BT and babysitter to counter the twins and sometimes I use Lucky Break myself, but it sucks when i pick babysitter and luckybreak but then the killer isn't the twins - and I just wasted 2 perks.
The idea of buffing underperforming perks is good. But you are going in the completly wrong direction, you want to buff survivors even further, while the game is already heavily survivor sided.
Killer slug to save time, since they DON'T have the time to hook survivors and defend gens.
The solution would be Buffing Killers, so they wouldn't NEED to slug, and they wouldn't feel like they need to camp/tunnel. Or nerfing survivors, a gen speed nerf would take a lot of presure on the killer side.
If you keep Buffing survivors the Killers will feel like the only way they can win is using the most broken killers, addons and tatics that they can find. The weaker Killers will be seen less and less, since they will not just be destroyed, but they will be humiliated by toxic survivors.
I know that you meant to nerf the twins by changing something else, the idea is the right one, but what to change is the wrong thing.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1796152#Comment_1796152
I never said slugging takes longer than dying on hook. Where did I say that?
I said it has no Downside. As in it is FREE pressure where one action can be done with little to no downside. I’m arguing the ability to slug so freely, I’m not comparing it to anything else.
Funny how you bring up survivor “meta” when the meta only exists because of the killer’s built in mechanics. Because I can guarantee you not everyone is keen on bringing BT or DS every match but we both know once there is no obsession it’s like a tunnel buffet for many killers.
I was the one saying slugging takes more time to kill than a hook, and it IS, you wanting or not, a downside.
And NO, it is not "FREE", it is a trade of, you don't hook, that is the way the game gives killer points and emblem, in trade of not losing the time it takes to grab a survivor, take him to the hook, and the hook animation.
What you don't understand is that the killer doesn't want to slug, he needs to. No one killer is going to a match thinking "Oh, it will be so fun just leave survivors on the ground", the killers want their points and emblems too, but if they always keep being inefficient they will just lose.
You think that the solution is nerfing slugging, what is in itself *NERFING THE KILLERS*, AGAIN!
The better solution would be BUFF the killers in general. there are a lot of ways of doing it, pick one: Nerfing gen speed, Speeding killers pick up time animation and hooking animation, buffing killers mov speed while carrying a survivor.
Make something more viable than slugging, instead to nerf the only viable option.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1794661#Comment_1794661
I am talking about UB in the way that I have experienced it. Just because people have issue with how it combines with DS does not mean people who often complain about UB, aren’t complaining because their excessive slugging didn’t pan out as much as they wanted.
I am not arguing the “rules” behind what you can/cannot do. I am fully aware that your only timer on “Slugging”, is practically the survivors’ dying state bar. No one is arguing that it isn’t in accordance to the game’s rules.
The point is that it shouldn’t be possible to slug as much or whenever you feel like it, without any downside. Because in actuality survivors have to bring PERKS to counter a BUILT-IN mechanic, which can become borderline abused and more so with killers whose powers are encouraged to do just that.
I already expressed my concerns for allowing to happen. Just because it’s not against the rules doesn’t make it any less unbalanced.
Mate, you can't say slugging has no downside, c'mon.
Slugging takes more time to kill the survivor than a hook.
Slugging has no emblems, you need hooks to get them, and if you slug to kill the team in 1 or 2 hooks you are sacrificing your emblem.
There are perks that counter slug.
People picking up slugged survs takes about the same time it takes to save from hook, it only takes more if the slugged wasn't healing.
Slug is NEEDED in a heavily survivor meta, and it will get worse when they nerf undying and the other stuff they are preparing to nerf on the killer side.
Everytime a survivor ask to nerf something on the killer side, Killers have to be more and more effective and give survivors less chances to play the match, it is 100% on the community asking to nerf an already struggling side.
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@Aweaty5 said:
I'm a red rank survivor and killer. I'm here to say this logic is fairly flawed, not just from a normal gameplay perspective and entitlement perspective, but from a general design perspective.
The hatch as a mechanic (outside of keys) does not ruin a killers game in any respect. It does, however, give a survivor an ok chance at escaping against good/toxic killers, a chance to escape if they solo queue with a bad team, or a chance to escape when the gate spawn is impossible. Even with this in the game, the killer is far more likely to find hatch and close it than the survivor is. They're faster and they have nothing at all to worry about. If somebody wants to hide for hatch, fine whatever. They handed you a 3k instead of playing the game.
In my experience, I close the hatch easily 75% of the time if I don't find the final survivor (I carry/escort more survivors to hatch than they escape by themselves). As a survivor, I get the hatch escape maybe 50% of the time in a race for hatch where killer doesn't know where I am when the third dies. I know where to look for hatch I suppose, but I absolutely close it as killer more often than I find it as survivor. That doesn't factor in how often I 4k with hatch open because I know where the last survivor is, or how often I get sacrificed with hatch open because the killer knows where I am. Endgame hatch is almost always killer sided.
Another big element you seem to be missing is that, um, the game is supposed to be fun? Not just for you but for survivors too? It's honestly not super fun as a survivor to be the last one with bad gates and basically have no possible way to win. The win condition for a survivor is really just to escape. Hatch races make the endgame 1 v 1 fun and engaging for both sides and it's also pretty fun to carry fun or cool survivors to hatch when they play well. Beyond that, as a mechanic it keeps either side (particularly hiding survivors) from holding the game hostage in the endgame. If killer finds hatch, EGC starts and game over in 2 minutes. If survivors finds it, hooray we can move on.
To your argument about pips: as a killer, you can double pip on a 3k. 9 hooks, use your ability, find lots of survivors, kick gens and interrupt heals, you are looking at a 4 iri/3 iri and a gold game. As a survivor, it is next to impossible to play the game normally and double pip without escaping. Hell, sometimes you depip even if you escape if the killer isn't very good and doesn't get hits or kick gens. It's literally impossible to double pip if no player loses blood during a game and you team plays at max efficiency and skill. Maybe pips don't matter to some people. The point here: a killer 4k isn't really that much more rewarding than a 3k plus hatch is, whereas it is immensely unrewarding, both psychologically, and in terms of how the game gives badges, for survivors to die. Behavior has to keep the game rewarding for both sides, they just do. A couple of kills feel very rewarding for almost all killers, completing 4 gens and dying does not feel the same for survivors, even though they have done a lot of the objective. Plus, survivors exist by default at a disadvantage. Statistically, all red rank killers combined have an average kill rate of just under 3k every game. That is a hard and fast victory and a pip or double pip every game on average. For survivors, rough estimates are around 30% survival rates, lower in lower ranks. So 70% of the time survivors are at a maximum single pipping, but mostly safety pipping (or depipping). Hatch is there to increase the odds and make the game worth actually playing if the killer 3ks. Otherwise, it's basically game over (especially with Whispers and now the Twins being around) if it comes down to gates. As a killer, I pip almost every game and double pip fairly often. As survivor, I maybe average +1 or +2 from where I started every 7 or 8 games, maybe more? The game has to be rewarding for survivors too and hatch is a way to do that. As for key? Well, that's a whole other post (I think keys are unfair myself, same with moris).
You aren't entitled to 4k's, and 4k's shouldn't be easy to get. Survivors are entitled to have fun and to escape as well, and I'm sorry that 1 person of 4 escaping is ruining your experience. It's a shame that the game is designed to be fun and rewarding for 100% of the players in every match and not the 1% of entitled killers who want 4k's every game.
Mate, being disrespectful doesn't help your point.
Everyone knows that shouldn't be easy getting a 4k, already isn't. What he is talking about is the scenario that sometimes you play well, you destroy the survivor team, they barely do 1 gen, and if you don't play the boring game of slugging the third to get the forth, the game stops being about your skill and start being about a luck escape. That actually is unfair. The Killer is punished even when they play well.
And why there is not a thing on the killer side, like, if the 4 survivors are alive and they open the gate the entity to give the killer a chance blocks the gates for 2 min?(Not saying that this one would be balanced, just an exemple)
If you are one of those solo survivors that thinks that is always the randons the problem, why don't change the hatch to spawn only if you did at least 1 gen + 1 save, and had a chase with the killer before.
Anyway, you were missing the point, is not entitled when you won the game, using skill and knowledge, and the game just gives your enemy a way out. That he wants a 3k everygame, but some games he would have a 4k and it is stolen on an unfair manner.
And you really don't sound Like someone that play both sides, I can play with no perks on surv and get out without hatch most of my matches, did the new achievemt (escape with no perk, doing at least 1 gen, 8 times) the day it came playing solo. Playing as Killer is already way more stressiful.
Or you know how survivor sided the game is, or you don't have that many hours on the game, or you doesn't understand balance, or you are not good at the game, what is fine, most aren't, or you are actually dishonest just trying to keep the system broken cuz it benefits you and your friends the most.
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@Boddy604 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1790126#Comment_1790126
And if a survivor doesnt use perks, theyre never gonna last long enough to make it to hatch. Whats your point?
Mate, just came out an achievment of doing ' full gen and getting out alive without perks 8 times. I did it easily in one day at rank 1 playing solo. Is easier than getting David's adept what already is not even that hard.
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@Jasonisanicefella said:
Let me start with prefacing I had enjoyed the twins in the PTB, the idea was cool and refreshing.
That said, after versing them quite often since release, I am really starting to hate them.
Pretty much 95% of the competent killers at red ranks go for a slug fest. There are so many games where you end up with 2-3 and even 4 people slugged.
This is NOT fun at all from a survivor perspective. It is even worse than being camped as it completely ruins a players experience.
Tofu and Scott also made videos to discuss this.
I think something needs to be done, I don't care about winning in DBD but I care about having fun and being slugged is the antithesis of fun.
Please help us Devs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snNWS3q-grM&ab_channel=OhTofu
Look, I know that's annoying to be slugged, but that is a problem caused by a heavily survivor meta.
Just think about the time the killer has. It is 4 survivors, a gen gets done in 80 seconds base, no tools no perks.
The Killer has walk to a spawn point, locate survivors, hit them once (expecting they can actually loop), deal with the exaustion perk, hit them twice (again, expecting they can actually loop), pick up animation (ignoring time checking for saves), taking them to a hook, hook them. Without camping or tunneling they have to do this 12 times to kill all 4 survivors. Now without taking in account BT,DS,Soul Guard,Adrenaline.
Even the hatch is survivor sided, they can do no gens, and the killer HAS to slug the third survivor so the forth won't get a Free win.
Killers just don't have enough time to play nice anymore, they have to be efficient.
Not even talking about a Key match, that one kill is basically doing a gen for the survivor team.
Even truetalent, that thinks that slugging is boring, is saying that behavior is pushing the meta to become this, 1 hooking and 2 hooking survivors.
If the Killers had more time to spent they could give survivors more chances. Nerfing Gen speed and making the maps smaller would be a good start.