TheNasky
TheNasky
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@asergioam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978333#Comment_978333
League of legends?! Are you seriously comparing a symetrical and competitive game balance to an assymetrical and non competitive game balance?!
Without a competitive ranking system is impossible to properly balance any game by the big amount of "corrupted" data. And being assymetrical makes it even more dificult! Then you are also comparing two companies with a very different financial situation! The financial part isn't the main issue since they could easily raise their player base by correcting the game but they can only do that by making it "competitive". Competitive not like LOL but by making a competitive ranking system were almost everyone would care about rank providing good data from wich they could start balancing the game.
this game being so much simpler than league of legends, makes it a lot easier to balance. the problem is that they dont want to, thats it. its not a financial problem. it is just the mere fact that they dont want the game to be balanced, all they do is cater to low rank survivors.
if were in charge of balancing this game, it would be perfectly balanced in 2 days.
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@SquirrelKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978333#Comment_978333
I dunno if id call league a "well balanced" game
oh i agree it has thousands of issues, specially when it comes to high elo gameplay. but at least it is well balanced for low elos, and for proplay. wich is the only thing they care about really. mages being broken as shiet on every single lane for 2 seasons is pretty problematic, but at least the game is playable to an extent.
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@Elegant said:
No. If you watch people who are actually really good at the game play killer they get 3 or 4k games consistently. It's rare for a killer of that skill to get less than two kills unless they misplay/are going against really great survivors which doesn't happen too often. Sure, some killers are better than others. But you can do well with just about any killer at any rank if you learn the game enough
what? do you even watch streamers? because based on youtube everyone has 100% winrate ofc.
you can just look at how even the best players struggle to win games because of how ######### fast they are. gens are gone in less than 5 minutes even with ruin.
and btw. getting 3k or 4k on killer means nothing if you dont pip lol. its like an afk survivor escaping.
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@Ryuhi said:
you don't even need to explain any of that.
A survivor who commits suicide on their first hook to avoid a DC penalty, counts as a kill.
kill % stats are immediately worthless.
yeah, specially when them doing that actually makes the killer lose A HUGE ammount of points as opposed to winning them
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@Zombra808 said:
This may be lengthy, so if you don't want to read the whole thing, skip to the TLDR;. I do recommend you read the entire thing though to hear what I have to say.
I am a Survivor/Killer player, but I mostly play Survivor. I also pay the most attention to stats, rather than feeling/thoughts. Of course, everyone's opinions matter, and of course, the devs should listen to them, but considering the kill rates of all killers, I don't see how Killers are underpowered one bit. I understand that the newest available stats are a couple of months outdated now, but according to the stats, only one killer is below a 50% kill rate, being Nurse.
From my standpoint, I believe that the game should be balanced around the 50% kill rate, 2 kills, 2 escapes. I know others may think that a 75% kill rate, or 66% kill rate is more accurate, which I can see, but a 50/50 split sounds more accurate to balanced than 66/33 or 75/25. I do understand the struggles many Killer players face when going into a game, i.e., gen rush, SWF, or natural disadvantage, but not one killer besides Nurse gets below a 50% kill rate.
You also can't argue that any killers get worse the higher you go because each killer gets an increase to their kill rate, the higher you go within the ranks. Even the Killers that are deemed the worst by the community, ie. Legion, Pig, Leather Face get above a 65% kill rate in red ranks. In all ranks, they get above a 60% kill rate.
The worst Killers in the game according to stats across all ranks would be Nurse, Demogorgon, and Clown, Nurse being an exception because of her extremely high learning curve, although Nurse being underpowered is a topic for another post. Red ranks are the same, although Nurse surpasses both Demogorgon and Clown in kill rates.
To me, it seems like the game should be balanced around a 50% kill rate, giving about a 10% wiggle room for each end, meaning a 40%-60% kill rate being balanced. Although Killer players do voice their opinion of the game being Survivor sided, it seems from stats, that each killer is either overperforming or balanced from a 50% kill rate standard. Even if you look at it from a 66% kill rate, using the same 10% wiggle room, only one killer would be considered underpowered, being Nurse. The only killer at that point that would be regarded as overpowered would be Freddy.
Whether you believe that the game should be balanced around a 50% kill rate, 66% kill rate, or even a 75% kill rate, the stats don't lie. I do agree that we, the community, should address the issues each side face and the irritations we all face. We should make the game more fun for each role, but we must avoid being too biased to one side, and consider balance as well.
For example, gen speed. Some believe that gen speed is too fast, and it should be slowed, but that must also mean that if gen speed is nerfed, survivors would need another buff to compensate. We want to make sure that Killers get the chance to kill survivors, without making the survivor board to death by holding M1, for even longer.
Another example would be boring or annoying killers, i.e., Spirit, Freddy, Legion. We should make the killers less annoying to face to promote fun for survivors, without making the Killers useless and destroying the community that loves playing them.
TLDR; The stats show that no killer is considered underpowered, depending on what your view of balanced. Opinions matter, but isn't the whole answer. The community must work together to come up with alternatives to things each side find annoying, without making one side too powerful. This is only from my own perspective, and everyone has their own. Please tell me your thoughts on things that annoy you, and try to find out how to balance it, without taking a bias to one given side.
you base your whole post on a meaningless stat.
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"You also can't argue that any killers get worse the higher you go because each killer gets an increase to their kill rate, the higher you go within the ranks. Even the Killers that are deemed the worst by the community, ie. Legion, Pig, Leather Face get above a 65% kill rate in red ranks. In all ranks, they get above a 60% kill rate."
this will always happen. no matter how weak the killer is. for a simple reason.
let me explain:
lets take a strong killer. like lets say huntress. now lets say she has 1000 games played in red ranks. and out of those 1000 games, she has 75% killrate overall. right?
now lets take a bad killer like pig. if it had less than 60% killrate. it wouldnt be in the red ranks in the firs place, thus not adding up to the statistics. wich means. that of course, pig is going to have a high killrate on red ranks as well. but the ammount of games played is going to be extremely low. because if people had low ammounts of kills on the pig, they will soon find themselves out of the red ranks. wich effectively happens to people who refuse to play meta picks (or in reality the only killers that work lmao)
the difference here is that, good killers can play huntress and if they are good enough, get enough wins to stay in the red ranks. now, the same can happen with the pig, but it would take A LOT MORE SKILL AND EFFORT to be able to pull that off, just because of how weak the pig is.
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@StevePerryPsychOut said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978582#Comment_978582
What your describing is a failure of the ranking system, which is ridiculously lenient to survivors while being too harsh on killer players.
exactly. the ranked system is terrible and tremendously survivor sided. and i did all that explanation just to make people understand that bringing killrate as an argument is just extremely dumb.
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@Zombra808 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978547#Comment_978547
Please, clarify what I got wrong. From what I read, twice, I still don't see what I got wrong. The only thing I can maybe change is that a 3k or 4k shouldn't be norm according to you.
do you really play killer? because it doesnt show, at all.
killrate is just a very VERY dumb stadistic because of how the emblem system and pips work.
let me explain to you. lets say a pip, is a win, a non pip is a draw, and a black pip is a loss. right?
well here is the thing. killrate is meaningless because you can literally kill 4 players and dont pip. do you understand? you can kill everyone, AND STILL end up on a draw. killrate is a meaningless statistic.
do you understand that all killers will always have high killrates in red ranks, because as a killer, if you dont kill 3 or 4 people per match you will never EVER make it to red ranks in the first place.
the emblem system is balanced around a killer having to get 9 hooks 3 kills, a few chases, and not losing more than 2 gens in 3 minutes. just to go neutral. or barely pip (depending on different factors)
thus all red rank killers MUST have a 75% or 100% or otherwise they lose. and they derank. so of course killrates are going to be high, because thats just how the system works. as i said before. killrate is a terrible statistic. what should be looked at is WINRATE %. not killrate. if having 50% winrate meant 75% killrate. then it would be perfectly balanced (not rly since it ignores al ot of other factors that actually lower the killer winrate, but the example proves my point in a simple way for you to understand.). and keep in mind that survivors DONT EVEN NEED TO ESCAPE TO PIP.
in theory. a killer can have 75% killrate and not win. while a survivor can have literally 0% escape rate, and still win games. escape rate and kill rate, are both meaningless.
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@Zombra808 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978532#Comment_978532
How is a 50% kill rate stupid. 50% of matches should not be 3ks or 4ks imo. Killers would still complain about the 1k or 2k matches and say that 3k and 4k matches should be the norm. 50% kill rate is the closest thing people can agree upon to be balanced, without making a 3k or 4k the norm.
did you even read what i wrote?
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@Zombra808 said:
This may be lengthy, so if you don't want to read the whole thing, skip to the TLDR;. I do recommend you read the entire thing though to hear what I have to say.
I am a Survivor/Killer player, but I mostly play Survivor. I also pay the most attention to stats, rather than feeling/thoughts. Of course, everyone's opinions matter, and of course, the devs should listen to them, but considering the kill rates of all killers, I don't see how Killers are underpowered one bit. I understand that the newest available stats are a couple of months outdated now, but according to the stats, only one killer is below a 50% kill rate, being Nurse.
From my standpoint, I believe that the game should be balanced around the 50% kill rate, 2 kills, 2 escapes. I know others may think that a 75% kill rate, or 66% kill rate is more accurate, which I can see, but a 50/50 split sounds more accurate to balanced than 66/33 or 75/25. I do understand the struggles many Killer players face when going into a game, i.e., gen rush, SWF, or natural disadvantage, but not one killer besides Nurse gets below a 50% kill rate.
You also can't argue that any killers get worse the higher you go because each killer gets an increase to their kill rate, the higher you go within the ranks. Even the Killers that are deemed the worst by the community, ie. Legion, Pig, Leather Face get above a 65% kill rate in red ranks. In all ranks, they get above a 60% kill rate.
The worst Killers in the game according to stats across all ranks would be Nurse, Demogorgon, and Clown, Nurse being an exception because of her extremely high learning curve, although Nurse being underpowered is a topic for another post. Red ranks are the same, although Nurse surpasses both Demogorgon and Clown in kill rates.
To me, it seems like the game should be balanced around a 50% kill rate, giving about a 10% wiggle room for each end, meaning a 40%-60% kill rate being balanced. Although Killer players do voice their opinion of the game being Survivor sided, it seems from stats, that each killer is either overperforming or balanced from a 50% kill rate standard. Even if you look at it from a 66% kill rate, using the same 10% wiggle room, only one killer would be considered underpowered, being Nurse. The only killer at that point that would be regarded as overpowered would be Freddy.
Whether you believe that the game should be balanced around a 50% kill rate, 66% kill rate, or even a 75% kill rate, the stats don't lie. I do agree that we, the community, should address the issues each side face and the irritations we all face. We should make the game more fun for each role, but we must avoid being too biased to one side, and consider balance as well.
For example, gen speed. Some believe that gen speed is too fast, and it should be slowed, but that must also mean that if gen speed is nerfed, survivors would need another buff to compensate. We want to make sure that Killers get the chance to kill survivors, without making the survivor board to death by holding M1, for even longer.
Another example would be boring or annoying killers, i.e., Spirit, Freddy, Legion. We should make the killers less annoying to face to promote fun for survivors, without making the Killers useless and destroying the community that loves playing them.
TLDR; The stats show that no killer is considered underpowered, depending on what your view of balanced. Opinions matter, but isn't the whole answer. The community must work together to come up with alternatives to things each side find annoying, without making one side too powerful. This is only from my own perspective, and everyone has their own. Please tell me your thoughts on things that annoy you, and try to find out how to balance it, without taking a bias to one given side.
you said you think the game should be balanced around 50% killrate. but thats really reallly stupid.
the game should be balanced around 50% WINRATE. the thing is. for killers to win, they need at least 75%-100% killrate. if they get less than that, they automatically lose. killrate is a really stupid stadistic. what should happen is that killers should become stronger, not easier, but just stronger.
the problem the game has right now is that the killer role has very little skillexpression since most of it is in the chases.
if you look at rank 1-4 matches, you will notice that killers have nothing they can do themselves to win a match. they rely entirely on survivors making mystakes. and the problem is, if survivors dont make mystakes they automatically win the game. wich imo shouldnt even be possible in the first place. killers need to be stronger, but more importantly HAVE SKILL EXPRESSION somehow. there are many many ways to implement such things and many ideas given by other players. but nobody seems to care.
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@DawnMad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978440#Comment_978440
Yes, exactly my point. The reason is because the inexperienced people are the majority. If more people become knowledgeable then the devs can balance around the experienced players.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978449#Comment_978449
You are suggesting me to learn how to loop and Im suggesting to teach that to everyone.
The game cant be balanced around experienced people if those people are minority. Get more peoples to loop like Noob3, Monto, Tru3 etc then we can balance killers against a SWF with 4 Noob3. A better tutorial would be a good start for this.
And I did tell you, pallets arent an enough counter play to tunneling if you are the only one who knows how to loop in your team. In a group with pallet campers, most of them will be used by the time you get chased.
if you balance the game around skilled players. being minority or not doesnt matter. because all players will then become more skilled.
the game MUST be balanced around that minority, to eventually push the rest of the players into the same category if they get good enough.
one big problem is that the game has a lot of casual players, so imo there should be a separated mode for casual players and competitive players. have 2 gamemodes, one casual for people to learn how to play or just have fun casually and one ranked for those who like to tryhard and do good everygame. and things will work just fine, like they do on most other games (to an extent)
if queues ever become too long, they can just fix it with special rewards and stuff like all other games do. the playerbase isnt even that small to begin with,
btw im not spefically refering to you when i say people should learn to loop and stuff. since i dont even know what level of skill do you have, im just talking in general.
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@Holdonholdon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/118660/why-is-speedhacking-even-a-thing-on-this-game
I never hacked but it happened to me where I was the survivor. it looks like it glitched out and I was going full speed around the map it was the game. I kept zooming from one end to another, and I didnt want to stop. I thought I wonder if bn I drop down if itll keep going, so I did, I dropped and it stopped. bit it was really fun going that fast. i was literally like a billy zipping through.
it really surprised me that this guy could also crawl very fast. wich doesnt make any sense.
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@Colton147 said:
Many killers have exploited the Basement of Permanent Blindness a few weeks ago, knowing that the only way out was a disconnect and guaranteeing a free win for them.
disconnects dont grant killers free wins. its actually the opposite, disconnects can force the killer to lose. most of the time, if 1 or 2 people disconnect the killer is then forced to waste the other survivors time to FARM THEM just because otherwise he automatically loses. like literally, if you dont farm survivors after people quit. you autolose. wich is absolute bs.
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@DawnMad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978333#Comment_978333
Well we are mostly talking about the same problem, the game is being balanced around the worse players. The reason behind that is because those people are the vast majority. Yes, a good ranking is needed but it wouldnt fix much if the game is still being balanced towards experienced killers facing bad survivors. Teaching people is my suggestion towards this but I definetly agree that ranks need fixing too.
I dont agree with that survivor statement though. "Not getting hit" is not a counter play, its the result. How are you not gonna get hit if the killer is tunneling you? That would be the counter play. Right now we get DS, DH etc used a lot because having all the pallets around being used by inexperienced teammates is pretty common.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978340#Comment_978340
Well gen speeds do need balancing but if the whole team is on a gen and the killer took 30sec to find that gen, then thats the killer not in a chase for 30 sec and only 1 gen being popped with the killer learning where everyone is. Would be much worse if everyone was in a different gen.
Agreed on the ranking problem, ranks need fixing aswell but my suggestion is aside from that.
yeah, most games it takes you on average 30 seconds to find the survivors when you spawn. and the first gen usually pops before you even SEE a survivor for the first time if they know what they are doing.
it doesnt matter if the gen pops and lets the killer know where everyone is, because survivors just start running and hiding so by the time the killer gets there they are already gone. forcing you to chase whoever you find first. and ofc while chasing that person usually the second gen pops.
it doesnt matter if bad players are the majority. they just gotta get good, no matter how many of them are there. if devs keep balancing the game based on bad players. it will always get boring or frustrating really quickly.
i dont really give an f about the ranking system. i just want good players be able to win, if they are better. wich right now is not happening, you can watch pros like otz and truetalent, loose many games just because the game is too survivor sided.
you just need to listen to any good player, and the first thing they will say is that games are too short, and often leave the killer no counterplay and thats not fun for anyone. besides maybe noobs who want to feel good by getting a red rank easily.
you wonder how can you avoid getting hit? there is something called looping and something called pallets as well as something called jukes.
to prevent a killer from tunneling, simply dont get hit in the first place. avoid getting hit even once. and you win. i know it can be really hard, but it is still doable specially against bad killers.
and you can just take a look on youtube where you can see players like noob3 doing it consistently
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@DawnMad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978180#Comment_978180
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978183#Comment_978183
Not exactly true about ranking. Ranking works in the skill range of the playerbase. If everyone is unskilled, the red ranks will be too. If everyone was very skilled, we would still have green ranks and lower. There are a lot of not so great survivors in red ranks because there are not so great killers too. If more killers were better at the game, worse survivors would drop down in ranks and vice versa.
the problem is not that killers are bad. the BIG problem is that killers have to go through a lot of bs to even play the game.
playing killer is harder by nature. but thats not the only issue. the problem is the game is rigged in survivors favour in many aspects.
why is it possible for survivors to do 1/5 of their main objective in less than 30 seconds without letting the killer player do anything? like, by the time the killer reaches the gen, its already done, literally 0 possible counterplay.
also, did you know, that by disconnecting or by simply dying too fast, survivors can force a killer into a black pip? like, ######### is that bs. today i had a game at rank 8 (so not even that high) where i killed 1 survivor, he disconnected, then i killed another survivor, instadied on hook. killed another survivor, instadied on hook to give the last one the hatch. and boom. i automatically got a black pip in 3-4 minutes, just because i killed 3 people "too fast" because they unironically killed themselves. now, WHY is it even allowed for survivors to do this?
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@Revansith said:
OK point taken.
Its a very difficult job balancing a game when the same trial will be played by someone who got the game for Christmas last week and someone who has been playing since 2016.
no its not. balancing the game is easy. you just have to ignore the whiny rank 15s who cant get good at the game.
look at a game like league of legends. wich is 1000 times more complex than dbd. a game that has skilllevels range from iron 4 (people who are physically/mentaly handicapped or have bad a bad pc/internet) to challenger players (literal prodigys/people who are 1 of a kind/ drug abusers)
now, how is it that a game like that can be balanced and a simple game like dbd cant? easy...
its because devs keep listening to shi1ty players who cant even do skillchecks.
if you are not good at the game, you dont have the right to an opinion when it comes to balance, it is a simple as that. if you think something is too hard just get good. there is no other way to put it. because what devs do by balancing the game aroudn noobs. is making it so everyone who is not bad becomes overpowered, or loses all possible skill expression leading to them losing the game no matter how good they are.
just look at youtubers/streamers who are really good at the game. like literall professionals, yet they still lose a lot of games, just because the ammount of bs killers have to go through is unbearable. because in the end, if you get tunneled as a survivor, you at least could have counterplayed that by not getting hit. wich even tho it could be hard. you can at least do it if you are good enough. on the other hand. if as a killer you lose 5 gens by the time you hooked someone once. what are you supposed to do?
you just lose and thats it. at least you have a chance to facecamp so you keep 1 kill as a consolation price. really nice huh...
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@Revansith said:
I dont find ranking up as easy.
For a long while I would gain three pips then lose them all in consecutive matches over and over. The only reason I swf now is that I get better squads to play with.
Since the game removed ranks in the lobby, I have no idea of the quality of the team I will be in. Sure I can control that by only playing 4x1s premades, but I have found in the matches where I have done so, since not everyone is on voice it makes it impossible to co-ordinate, not everyone feels happy using voice in this game.
I would suggest completing one gen one safe unhook and not dying in ten seconds is not going to be enough to pip you up, unless you are playing a different version of DBD, in which case I would like to know where I can get a hold of it.
not dying in 10 seconds means you actually have to survive 15 to 30 seconds of chase wich is still really really easy.
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@DawnMad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978180#Comment_978180
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978183#Comment_978183
Not exactly true about ranking. Ranking works in the skill range of the playerbase. If everyone is unskilled, the red ranks will be too. If everyone was very skilled, we would still have green ranks and lower. There are a lot of not so great survivors in red ranks because there are not so great killers too. If more killers were better at the game, worse survivors would drop down in ranks and vice versa.
its not that killers are bad. is just that as killer, there is so much bs in the game that you can do nothing about. why is it that survivors can complete 1/5 of their main objective before you even get to do anything? like literally nothing you could do about it besides taking ruin which is now gone. and thats just one of the many many many issues the game has.
the main problem is, that on top of killer role being harder to play by nature. there is a lot of stuff that has literally no counterplay.
i know survivors have to deal with bullshit too. like tunneling, camping, broken hitboxes and what not. but if killer role was actually playable. the ammount of bullshit survivors have to go through would also be a lot less.
like for example. if people disconnect from your game, or literally get themselves killed too fast. it forces you as a killer to automatically BLACK PIP. like. #########. if they loose too fast you automatically loose. what kind of bullshit is that?
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the problem is playing survivor is way too forgiving both gameplay wise and rankwise, wich leads to red ranks survivors being pretty bad.
this then leads to below average killer players ranking up, because people literally run into them.
im currently rank 8 killer with 56hours played (and like 10 afking on the menu) and most of my matches are garbage. when im up against solo survivors i kill them all before they do 2 or 3 gens. usually only one of the four survivors knows how to properly loop and the rest just run into me or make dumb mystakes.
the problem is, the rest of the matches im facing SWF and i lose at least 2 or 3 generators before i can even hook someone. and its not that im bad at chasing, its just the fact that by the time i find someone its probably been 15-30 seconds. and the first gen is gone in 25. so not much i could do there. by the time im done chasing the first surv. if im lucky its been a minute and i only lost 2.
and the worst games i had is when i kill 1 survivor, and he disconnects before i can hook them. then when i kill the second survivor, he instadies in the hook denying me a lot of points. wich then forces me to spend 15 minutes, toying with the last 2, because otherwise i black pip FOR NO ######### REASON. literally. why the ######### are survivors able to instadie on hook, and force me to black pip by doing that? uh? thats the biggest bullshit i have ever seen.
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@Saitamfed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978151#Comment_978151
And what are you supposed to do? Let the killer hook you for free? Don't missunderstand me, I understand your point but we all try to win, if a killer abuses that I was locked in a position without moving. Wouldn't that be bannable as well?
thats why i think bugs shouldnt be punished unless exploited more than once. but tbf, if he knew he had a speed exploit, he should have let me kill him instead of running around in circles for 5 minutes. thats just dumb.
also, i gotta admit, that once i got stuck on a tree as a survivor, and when the killer saw me, he hit me, picked me up, and then allowed me to wiggle for free. so it was really nice of him
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too sad i dont have any way of recording gameplay since my pc is a potato. and anyway, i forgot to save his profile.
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im pretty sure he did at first,since he was running two times faster than me and spamming flashlights as if it was funny. tho he apparently got bored pretty quickly when he realized he couldnt win even with hacks.
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has anyone experienced anything similar?