Rovend
Rovend
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It IS a strong perk, but not as overpowered game-breakingly strong as people claim that needs to be nerfed to oblivion.
I also agree it could have the endurance removed however.
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Considering it is the strongest killer info perk currently, while having very low CD, on top of a very minor requirement to use, on top of being completely unavoidable unless using an specific bad survivor perk, on top of giving a 30sec blindness debuff every time.
It Sounds overtuned to me.
Edit: and this is not considering the effect staying with the killer for 30sec, or how obnoxious it can be in small maps like Midwich/Dead Dawg or its sinergy with DMS.
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@Kius said:
When this community got to the point that information perks are being on "discussion" for nerfs you know it's pretty much game over for any sort of common sense by the time bhvr minds decide to nerf MFT there will be already a better if not more unhealthy perk for the game and the cycle continues..
I would usually agree with info perks not needing any nerfs, but lately i am seeing more and more info perks that gives tons of value while the requirements to use them are little to none.
Windows being permanently active, Nowhere to hide revealing all survivors close to a gen with a kick and now UW that is literally unavoidable unless survivors counter it with an specific perk while also applying Blindness just for opening a locker.
We are getting to the point that anyone knows where everything and everyone is at all times unless the other side spends half their perk slots countering it.
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@Zenislev said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550205#Comment_3550205
Self heals were supposed to take longer than 24 seconds, and altruistic heals were supposed to take 24, you know, to give the survivors something meaningful to do away from gens. The medkit changes were a nice enough bone to toss to killers, but let's not pretend like the meat of the patch, the actual healing nerf went through. As it is, survivors are still more than capable of deleting injuries because heals just don't take much time to fix.
It's not as bad as it was, hit and run isn't a completely unviable strat anymore like it was back in the heyday of CoH, but that doesn't mean that it's good. That healing nerf should have gone through. As it is, survivors can rip through gens like nothing.
Both self heal and altruistic were initially supposed to take 24 sec, not any longer. Only altruistic healing was set back because of the requirement of two survivors in it.
The big hit in the healing nerfs was to the medkits with all addons nerfed and all made to 24 charges and to COH, the strongest healing perk at that time. None of them were reverted.
Said that, asking for an even longer healing times will lead to survivors not healing at all. Considering that Sloppy is one of the most used killer perks, which makes self heals already take 30sec, any longer than this will lead to like 40-45sec for a single heal. Would you choose to heal once with these times or do half a gen?
And then, we'll go back to "Resilience is op, pls nerf", " I see Resilience every game" type of posts.
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@Zenislev said:
That's what happens when the devs gut every form of gen regression/slowdown without adding time anywhere to the survivors. The healing nerf was supposed to compensate for the missing slowdown, but survivors cried so hard about it that it never went through, so now we're stuck in a position where gens are flying left and right and there's nothing killers can really do about it.
Wait, The healing nerf DID went through. Self heal was set to 24s, medkits were made 1 heal, 2 heals max with addons, all addons toned down and COH was nerfed.
The only thing that was reverted was altruistic healing because it made no sense that it was also at 24s while already having two people busy.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548491#Comment_3548491
That a perk is problematic if the player needs to use other stuff to counter it.
Made for this is one, old CoH was one, old dh was one, cob + eruption + overcharge was also "one".
If you think shattered hope was a good idea to counter boons, I don't know what to tell you.
mmm, i truly dont know. I think it depends more on the effect of the perk that in the stuff we use to counter it. I dont know how a counter perk for OLD DH could be as it literally gave you I-frames
It is true that shattered hope was not the counter to boon Killers players wanted but at the time it came out, COH (the strongest of boons) had already been nerfed twice, so i don´t know if the devs truly intended for SH to be a Full stop to Boons.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548433#Comment_3548433
1 - You can't name a mistake eraser perk for killer because they simply don't exist, or are so weak they might aswell not exist.
2 - CS doesn't just counter UW, it counters every scream perk + Doctors built in tracking + if theres no scream perk in play you don't disturb birds and can open chests and totems fully silently. Don't lie like that.
3 - You can bet that if killers had the option to bring a perk in order to delete one exhaustion perk of their choice, it would become instant meta.
4 - If you want to stealth around, bring a stealth build with distortion and CS, makes no sense to complain that you can't stealth if you bring a Genrush / Chase / Medic / Whatever kind of build.
5 - this ties into 4, Im talking to the general survivor population, stop acting like you're the only survivor in DBD.
6 - when you have a permanent delete button for UW via CS and refuse to use it, it either signifies that UW is not that big of a problem, or you're too stubborn to change builds, again, a perk that deleted exhaustion would be instant meta for killers because exhaustion perks are *actually busted* unlike UW.
1- i won´t name it because it is not the point of this argument. My original comment you answered to was about comparison of Mft 's counter to UW. If you want to talk about perk balance or what you perception of what a perk can do is and what is deserved or undeserved is, then open a new discussion with that topic on front.
2- YES, obviously. I read CS's description. But realisticaly, the majority of survivors are using CS today to counter UW, not perks like Face The Darkness or Infectious Fright or Spies From the Shadow. Or for the chance that they may encounter a doctor instead of the other 29 killers.
3- seriously? i would bet that the forums would be filled with "why this perk doesnt work against multiple exhaustion?" "why do i need to give up a slot to counter X perk" "stop releasing this kind of perk and just nerf X thing". It happened before.
4- Yes, i agree. Yet i still say that having the strongest killer info perk be countered only by one of the worst survivor perks, is a bad thing to have.
5- As far i know you are talking to me, i dont see anyone else talking of this so i dont get why you must keep repeating to diversify my build or stop using MFT-Resi as you dont know how i play or how i build my perks.
6- UW is overtuned. It is stronger than any killer info perk available as it has no ingame counter other than CS. That was the point of my original comment. Either you dont bring CS and risk the killer knowing exactly where you are with no counter whatsover, or you make a huge gamble by bringing CS and risking the perk to be dead in your build while debuffing you if the killer does not use UW.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548453#Comment_3548453
It was released during CoH prime time as a counter.
Would you have used it?
Maybe? I dont know. I wasnt playing dbd a lot during that time. What is the point you are trying to make?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547821#Comment_3547821
I used ultimate weapon yesterday in 3 games on my pig. It gave me 0 value. You want to know why? I already know where people are. If I need crucial info, I use Bbq. The info of that is way better.
I assume you like shattered hope as a counter to boons? That's the same logic as a counter to made for this.
If you already know where people are, then you dont need the value of an info perk. That doesn't translate to "UW gives 0 value" because the moment you need that info you can activate that perk at any time.
BBQ at least can be countered by lockers, or by being close to the hooked survivor, and distortion is an extremely good perk that works with multiple aura perks, not just BBQ.
"I assume you like shattered hope as a counter to boons? That's the same logic as a counter to made for this."
i haven't used shattered hope much before, and now that all boons are weak i dont think i will
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547811#Comment_3547811
Nobody expects Xeno to perform like Nurse. That's straight impossible.
How do you know for fact that Xeno was overperforming? We didn't even get to play the intentioned buff from the Ptb. It was bugged. They could have fixed the bug and let players try the buff.
"How do you know for fact that Xeno was overperforming? We didn't even get to play the intentioned buff from the Ptb. It was bugged. They could have fixed the bug and let players try the buff."
Because he was not being punished for missed tail attacks. I know it was bugged but the devs sometimes tend to nerf things that could have been fixed and tested before. It's in the same way they nerfed PTB reassurance saying it was used for grieving when they could have fixed it by giving the hooked survivor the option to cancel it.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548007#Comment_3548007
Name killer perks that go "oh you missed your M1? lemme re-wind that and give you the hit." Theres no "Mistake erasers" on killer side that even come close to exhaustion perks.
If you're aware exhaustion perks are *much stronger and game changing* while scream based perks are "bad or average at best" , then by logic alone the full on 1 perk counter to all should be an exhaustion counterperk , aka give killers a perk to exhaust survivors the entire match so survivors can't use exhaustion. it makes no sense for a counter perk to delete effects that are "bad or average at best" while there isn't one to counter much more meaningful effects.
all that UW does is say "Hey, theres a survivor in this general direction" , that is not an "overpowered" effect by any stretch of the imagination.
On the topic of "all your eggs in one basket" im talking to the general population, diversify your loadouts so you're equipped to deal with everything instead of going full on MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope then cry and complain that killer info perks are overpowered because you refuse to bring distortion or CS to counter them.
How can i name a killer perk from a cherry picked situation from the other side. I'll say it again, There are tons of frustrating things on both sides and we would be typing all day if we were to start naming what one can consider 'undeserved' or 'a gift to' or 'mistake eraser'.
"If you're aware exhaustion perks are *much stronger and game changing* while scream based perks are "bad or average at best" , then by logic alone the full on 1 perk counter to all should be an exhaustion counterperk , aka give killers a perk to exhaust survivors the entire match so survivors can't use exhaustion. "
If you could counter the entire set of exhaustion perks with a single perk it would be extremely broken. The thing is you are comparing an all-out counter of like 8-9 of the strongest perks to CS that only really counters one overtuned perk.
"it makes no sense for a counter perk to delete effects that are "bad or average at best" while there isn't one to counter much more meaningful effects." yet it is not the same to have one perk against all exhaustion than to have a perk as solely counter of another. Would you like if bhvr released a bunch of perks that only counter an specific perk (Anti-Sprint, Anti-Dead Hard)? i dont think so.
"all that UW does is say "Hey, theres a survivor in this general direction" , that is not an "overpowered" effect by any stretch of the imagination." it is overpowered, it literally kills any stealth survivors could have unless they have CS. It even surpasses Lockers so there truly is no escape at all aside of being permanently miles away from the killer.
"On the topic of "all your eggs in one basket" im talking to the general population, diversify your loadouts so you're equipped to deal with everything instead of going full on MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope then cry and complain that killer info perks are overpowered because you refuse to bring distortion or CS to counter them."
i dont understand why you keep posting these replies at the end. i often diversify my loadout, i may have used MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope like twice in all my games. These two things are not the reason why UW is overpowered as much as it is unavoidable without CS and kills all stealth.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547940#Comment_3547940
You throw bias around as if you know what you're talking about...
comparing slowdown to exhaustion perks erasing mistakes is laughable... what mistake did the killer do when as soon as everyone spawns theres 2 survivors on gens cranking them away? was not bringing corrupt a mistake...? whole different ball game to a killer sneaking up on you, and right before you get hit you get bailed out by SB or DH, you messed up, didn't pay attention, and your mistake was erased by SB/DH.
In the case of MFT+Resi ... missplayed? got hit? heres a permanent 20-30% longer chase than normal just by holding Shift+W , if the killer drops chase because you've made it to a pallet/window you didn't deserve, you can also crank gens with a built in Prove thyself (9% v 10%).
Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*.
And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*
Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences.
I throw bias because you take a survivor perk, literally say its basic funcionality and call it 'gift' or 'undeserved' or 'delete mistakes' when the same can be said about a killer using a certain perk for a certain situation. but using those perks as killer is perfectly fine to you and not undeserved in any way.
There are tons of things that are frustrating in dbd, and we would typing all day if we were to name every single situation so i really dont want this to be another balance discussion like the hundreds that are already in the forum.
"Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*." yes, i agree
"And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*"
no, because as in LITERALLY the previous line we established that Exhaution perk as a Category are *much stronger* than scream perks, so a perk that could fully counter all these would be extremely broken. But Scream perks as a category are bad, average at best. All of them are not worth running as killer, let alone counter it, except for one, UW that is so OP that literally stomped over all other killer info perks.
so it's CS better than before? no, it's not. it's the same weak perk that hinders you unnecessarily only that now is the only counter of an extremely powerful killer perk.
"Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences."
i wonder why you keep telling me things like "putting all your eggs in one basket" or "deal with the consequences if you run an hyper-specific loadout" when i have never told you what builds i use or anything like that. i dont know if you think i am an MFT lover or anything.
As for "Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes" i agree, but considering the only way to counter the most powerful killer info perk available is with a bad, very weak survivor perks that again hinders you unnecessarily, is a bad counter.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547904#Comment_3547904
No I dont consider scream based perks that just tell the killer that the survivor is "somewhere over there" to be on the same level as survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions.
Which is why I don't get that when survivors are gifted a full on delete to scream based perks, survivors still decide to complain because they can't fathom that they should swap around their perks instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with MFT+Resi+Windows+Hope/Adren.
Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion.
You have a clearly killer biased way to see things.
"survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions."
Every perk in this game is meant to help you in some way, you dont get to decide which is deserved or not. To extend chases is the basic funcionality of an exhaustion perk, and is balanced in that way because survivors are against a killer that is faster than them and has powers that help him/her too. It is in the same spirit as me telling "well, gen regression perks either delete or mitigate killer mistakes and provide undeserved and skilless gen slowdown/+gen time".
For the survivors being 'gifted' part, this is also clearly biased. Good perks are given to both killers and survivors alike(we are literally talking about UW). What i was saying before that you say i am complaining is that Calm Spirit is a weak perk (which is true), it counters a variety of perks that barely see use and was nerfed with the last 'buff' it received. Nobody used it before UW to the point that its name could be changed to "Anti-UW" and would be accurate. So you are basically gambling a perk slot (that debuffs you also) everytime you use CS. At least the Killer has 4 chances of someone bringing a perk they are trying to counter.
"Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion."
Again, Exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks. If you could counter exhaustion perks entirely with a single killer perk it would be meta and extremely broken on release. But the options you have to try to lessen MFT value are more and are not exclusively to mft meaning If you use a perk like Blood Echo against Mft and no one actually uses MFT in that game, you can still get some value by hindering other exhaustion perks. If you use a killer like nurse or blight to deny MFT and noone actually uses it, you can play normally without being hindered or losing something.
This is what i mean when i said that mft has better counters than UW.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547868#Comment_3547868
And it seems like you're considering the option to outright delete an entire subset of perks + a killers built in tracking to be "weak".
You have 4 perk slots, you can dedicate one to CS and scream perks will no longer be a problem for you, its a whole different beast from killer having to dedicate an entire loadout to counter exhaustion perks and even then the exhaustion perks still proc'ing because the effects are extremely minimal.
If this entire subset of perks is made of average to bad perks and 1killer out of 30 then yes, the perk is very weak.
It is completely different than survivors exhaustion perks because these are a lot stronger and a staple in every build.
Do you really consider perks like Lithe and Sprint burst are in the same league as perks like Face the Darkness and infectious Fright that you keep comparing scream perks to exhaustion?
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547846#Comment_3547846
Really now? Complaining that for the benefit of fully deleting all scream based perks + Doctors built in tracking, you do totems slightly slower? I'd accept that complaint as valid if it was gen speed slowdown, but side objectives? come on man....
If a perk went "All survivors are permanentely exhausted, however kicking gens takes slightly longer" that thing would became instant meta.
The hoops a killer has to jump trough to get value out of Blood echo and other perks/addons is quite honestly an hinderence in of itself.
The benefit of deleting all scream based perk + doctor meant very little until UW was released.
Most scream perks are average at best, or the good ones like PR are not used solely for the info and scream part. And doctor is one killer out of like 30 killers so you have like a 95% chance of not encountering him.
Are you honestly considering Calm Spirit a good perk because it may counter perks like Face the darkness or Infectious Fright, and like 3% of the killer roster?
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547821#Comment_3547821
MFT's counters are exhaustion based addons and items that give a *slight cooldown* IF the killer meets certain specific requirements to activate the perk or addon...
Fearmonger? survivor has to be repairing a gen to be hit with a 5s exhaustion... 5 whole seconds of no MFT wooooo...
Blood echo? IF the Survivor with MFT is injured WHILE you're hooking SOMEONE ELSE he gets hit with 45s of exhaustion... and you can't do this repeteadly because of 60s cooldown...
Add-ons? anywhere between 5-10 seconds of exhaustion.... woo.... IF you hit its requirements to trigger...
Meanwhile.. "Hey, don't like UW or any scream based perks? here, take calm spirit and just outright delete them from the game, lmao"
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I have no idea how you can look at this and claim MFT has "way better counters" with a straight face, because in my book outright deleting a perk and all its subsets is way stronger than a 5-10s Cooldown.
Because there are better counters, and those are not exclusively against one perk. Objectively speaking, aside of countering UW, calm spirit is barely useful as the other scream perks and spies of the shadow are not remotely strong enough to use a perk to directly counter it.
So the only counter to UW you have is one very bad survivor perk, that only really helps against UW and not only is basically dead in your build if the killer is not using it, CS also hinders you by slowing down cleansing speed.
I am not saying MFT counters are great but at least if you use something like Blood echo and you are against other exhaustion perks like Lithe or Dead hard you can get some value, it also does not hinder you.
Same goes for instadown powers and chase related powers.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546422#Comment_3546422
But complaining about something you see every game. That has no real counter and is very annoying to play against. That hits weaker killers very hard and is almost useless against the stronger ones. Is. Valid.
At least Mft has waay better counters than UW. Exhaustion perks, exhaustion addons, instadown addons and killer powers, chase related powers and overall the survivor needs to have some looping skills at least to get value of.
UW gives you some great info value for opening a locker, and the only counter is a terrible survivor perk that debuffs you.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544920#Comment_3544920
Xenomorph Was the first fun and strong killer in pretty much exactly a year.
It got complained about a lot.
Now it's nerfed.
But he was nerfed not out of complaints but because he was bugged and was overperforming.
Once they fix the tail hitbox, i'll guess Xeno will be in a decent spot.
Problem is that many people expected Xeno to be able to compete with monsters like nurse and blight when and that is impossible.
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Play however you like
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Maybe because Dbd is supposed to be about a killer chasing survivors trying to kill them while they try to survive. Like, that's literally the purpose of the game.
It's not "Kick gens until the players get so bored that they decide to give up or stall until the game server close down" by Daylight.
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@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544880#Comment_3544880
I was really being sarcastic..the devs changed the skull merchant in months, while other survivor perks haven't changed since their release.
"While other survivor perks haven't changed since their release."
That's because newly released survivors perks are usually terrible. They are either Weak, extremely situational, nerfed versions of existing ones or have a wall of restrictions.
Seriously, Survivors get like ONE perk A YEAR that can climb to the meta and it gets hundreds of forum posts demanding nerfs.
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I mean, that is more of an indication of how overtuned Blight currently is than about Xeno's nerf.
No way will Xeno ever match Blight pick ratio or surpass him in the long run considering Blight current Strength.
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Couldn't it be that this is not a 'Dev's message' to go back to wesker/blight/nurse and more of a normal procedure for a every newly released killer to get nerf/buff/bugfix from the PTB?
BHVR has already stated before that newly released killers usually get more priority into getting some tweaks if they are over/underperforming and this seems to be case where it was overperforming due to a bug.
Would you also consider a 'Dev's message' when the newly released wesker was buffed by fixing the awful hitbox his power used to have? Or when they buffed knigth power by making survivors not being able to see the green orb and buffing the guards? Or like the 2-3 EMP nerfs the singularity received from the PTB?
Not everything is a conspiracy against killers
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And in the same patch they "buffed" Pharmacy by making it only work while injured, so now you dont even get the faster unlocking chest speed while you are healthy.
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They need to give survivors a button to instantly die on the ground if they have been like 90sec bleeding.
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Why? If you didnt get to use Plot Twist because the killer grabbed you first then it shouldnt deactivate.
It's like losing a pain res token when a survivor manages to wiggle off a killer's shoulder.
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I dont understand. You posted a picture of you winning a game with one of the weakest killers in the game against a strong team of survivors with good perks and addons.
The pic is proving the complete opposite of what you are stating, that you CAN actually win without using the strongest killers.
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What is a backpack nurse? An addon? A skin?
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Technically speaking, yes. They do get banned. But with the current report system one does not get any notification is someone you reported got banned so it is hard to know.
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@Mattie_MayhemOG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495319#Comment_3495319
The previous version was a hard counter for all stealth killers. It needed to be changed now that the visual heartbeat is base.
'Hard Counter' is debatable, most stealth killers suffer more on their own powers than what Spine chill can possibly do.
Even then with previous Spine Chill you could gain a couple seconds to let go of a gen or a heal AT BEST, and when you consider that it only works with like 3-4 killers it was hardly worth the perk slot.
Now the value you are getting for this perk is info you can get by opening your eyes and looking at your surroundings.
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@Hermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495299#Comment_3495299
Old spine chill also gave a bonus to vault speed, that’s why a lot of people were using it, combined with resilience.
But after the vault speed was removed and the visual terror radius was introduced, it was barely used.
This new nerf was not needed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495096#Comment_3495096
Spine chill did way more than the visual terror radius, as it pinpointed how far away a killer was, down to the smallest centimeter. The audio terror radius and the visual terror radius, are nowhere near as accurate, as there are only 3 separate warning levels for a terror radius.
The temporary Spine chill was a terrible recreation of the audio terror radius, and it should have only been sectioned into 3 parts.
Still, It didnt need a nerf at all. Current Spine Chill is using a perk slot for the info you can see with your own eyes.
The only people that used spine chill (at least in my games) were very new players that didnt have many perks and were mostly using the general survivor perks.
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@CrusaderNella said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493075#Comment_3493075
The Prove Thyself nerf is only to bloodpoints, and if you want Otz's video, you will see the BNP 'nerf" isn't so much as a nerf as a side grade
Prove got the repair speed reduced from 15% to 10%😑
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493673#Comment_3493673
"aside from basekit BT" which is literally 10s of free time you have to run to a pallet, with actual BT extending that to 20s, with OTR giving you up to 80s. In the mean time, you mention 10 different things that killers got that have absolutely nothing to do with tunneling (outside of DS).
I cant have a discussion if you are just going to disregard everything i say. I gave you a list, but if you truly cant understand hoy any of these changes affect tunneling then there is no point in continuing this.
Be well
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493662#Comment_3493662
Tunneling is literally weaker than ever, what are you on about? We have basekit BT, OTR, Dead Hard only working after unhooks, and Pain Res is only for first SH. We're long past the days of no BT where you could slap someone back on the hook immediately after they come off.
Since 6.1.0, killers got
- Faster breaking pallet
- Faster recover on hit
- Reduced survivor distance on hit
- +10sec to each gen
- nerfed Ds, 5 to 3sec stun and deactivate in endgame
- OTR indirectly nerfed when enduramce stacking was removed
- nerfed DH 4 times (invincible dash removed, window to use from 1sec to 0.5sec, endurance stacking removed, now only two uses per game)
- Locker saves removed
- Lightburn and unique flashlight interactions removed
- nerf COH
- nerf Medkits
All these changes directly or indirectly buffed tunneling and all this happened in a year. So yeah, aside from basekit bt, tunneling is in a very strong position.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493443#Comment_3493443
When did I say dodge a Wesker? I said get out of dodge. Do you know what that expression means?
"Spirit using her two most broken addons doesn't care for OTR" Woah really? That's almost like saying good luck against an Alch Ring 10k hour Blight, ergo OTR is useless. It's technically true, but it's such a non-argument.
Neither Resilience nor MFT will help you reach a loop. Both perks exist to help IN a loop, not OUTSIDE of it. Resilience is worthless if you have no pallet or window to vault, and MFT won't get you to a loop if killer hooks in a deadzone and decides to wait out your BT.
And if they slug the unhooker, that means they didn't hit you, which means you still have OTR. Yeah, they have pressure with a slug and a tunnel out being chased, but that tunnel out has OTR and can take an extra hit for 80s.
You missed my point about being hooked in a deadzone entirely. You, as the player, have the option to choose where you go down. If you hold W towards a deadzone, and die in it, it's 100% your fault.
It boils down to the killer, it boils down to you, and it boils down to your unhooker. If the unhooker is unhooking with the killer in your face, yeah, you're gonna lose it instantly. If the unhooker waits until the killer is a moderate distance away and then takes a hit for you, it's up to you to take the killer to a safe loop and preserve your 2nd hit.
You're right, I don't know if we'll see eye to eye on this. You've obviously convinced yourself that OTR is a terrible perk. I'm of the opinion that if a survivor can't get value from OTR, they are terrible at the game, but maybe I'm wrong. I also know basically every comp player agrees with me that OTR is one of the strongest perks in the game, but what do they know.
Look, i never said that OTR is a terrible perk as survivors really have a lot of weak, barely useful, situational perks .
All i am saying is that OTR's main strength as an antitunneling perk should not be an endurace-like effect, as it was already nerfed when endurance stacking was removed and being hit with Basekit BT can hamper its effect.
Regardless you consider tunneling good or bad for dbd, it is no surprise that tunneling is being overused and is stronger than ever since 6.1.0. . Survivors really are in need of at least one perk that can put some stop to tunneling and does not have a mountain of restrictions like DS or can be cancelled by other mechanics being present.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492653#Comment_3492653
You invented scenarios because you assumed one specific scenario and assumed it as the standard (killer is "proxying" but is right back on top of the hook as the unhook is happening). You're also inventing scenarios as you speak, but I'll entertain it.
Nurse? You got bigger problems than losing your Endurance if you're being tunneled by a Nurse, but OTR is probably the best perk you can have when being tunneled by a Nurse. The Iron Will will let you last much longer in chase since good Nurses use grunts of pain to predict mindgames. Also, if she has any aura reading perks, they're gonso.
Wesker? If he goes for the collat, he's already wasted one (maybe two) of his rushes, and you have a speedboost. Use it to get out of dodge.
Bubba? Your teammate is farming you if they unhook that close to a Bubba anyways, with the Bubba's rev already advanced enough for him to get a double hit on you. If a teammate unhooks you knowing they go down, they're either running Deliverance, or they're trading hooks to buy your team more time to do gens. Either way, if you get unhooked with a fully revved Bubba in your face, there's no perk in the game (outside DS) that will save you.
Spirit? Good luck to the Spirit player considering sound is her primary cue while in power and you're now completely quiet. OTR slaps Spirit the hardest out of any killer.
Now explain to me how Resilience/MFT (an overpowered perk used by many as a crutch, and will get nerfed very soon) will help you in any of the above scenarios. I'll wait.
OTR doesn't require another person to do what it does, but a person taking a hit helps conserve your Endurance and helps you be much harder to tunnel.
If your unhooker is unhooking while injured and the killer doesn't take the free down, they're stupid. And if they decide to tunnel afterwards, you have Endurance.
If you get hooked in a deadzone, that's your problem. No perk in the game is gonna save you there.
Yes, you can lose it after 5 seconds, or you can lose it after 60 seconds. Depends on how you decide to use it. A lot of killers will instantly drop the tunnel if they hear OTR. However, if you play like most OTR users and use it offensively, don't whine about being tunneled in post-game.
Adrenaline won't save you if you get tunneled before all gens are done. But you know what perk will help you stay alive until then? OTR.
No, you don't need to run THREE perks to have a slight chance, you CAN run three perks to stand a very strong chance of running killer until endgame. I've already said I've used that same combo before to run a killer for long enough for all gens to get popped by the time I went up on the hook for my 2nd stage, and we were able to 4-out, THANKS to those perks. It's also about strategizing on the survivor side. If you're a confident enough looper, you can take the killer's attention early on, and run them for 2-3 gens. At this point, the killer will desperately attempt a tunnel, at which point they hit the double whammy, and you may even escape before you even go on the 2nd hook. See? That's counter-strategizing to a popular, efficient killer strategy. That's what good players do. Good players see the most effective strategy used against them, and adapt (like killers do by tunneling, when the meta is to rush gens). Bad players sit back and whine about the effective strategy and hope to nerf their way to an easy victory.
My final point being that OTR is, indeed, one of the most busted perks in the game currently. Should I get a nerf? I don't know. All I know is I roll my eyes every time I see it, and tunneling is a fair strategy that shouldn't be discouraged so heavily, unless survivors receive equally debilitating nerfs to their basekit gen speeds.
sigh🤦♂️, it is obvious that we will never reach an agreement but i'll answer one last time.
Call these 'invented scenarios' or whatever, this does not change the fact that any killer receives a notification when a survivor is unhooked and many killers dont bother trying to chase another survivors and choose to go back to the hook to tunnel. This happens, and it happens A LOT, if you dont agree i cant do nothing for you.
Any of the situations i gave you are situations were any killer can bypass the unhooker and hit you regardless because YOU suggested that the unhooker can escort you to a safe pallet to make this perk work, it does not mean OTR cant give you any kind of advantage in chase but ultimately it will not save your life.
OTR has nothing to do with a nurse, you may survive a little more if you are able to reach some loop with high walls that lets you lose LOS but that's it. as i said before, you have more chances of reaching that loop if you slap chase perks like MFT/Lithe/Resilience rather than OTR. and if she has aura reading perks, you are truly better by using distortion that is better than OTR because it also hides your scratch marks.
Dodge a wesker? if i am telling you that the wesker is dashing through the unhooker i obviously meant a situation where i can't possibly dodge the hit. Seriouly, i dont need to be pointing out that a wesker can close the distance with the 2 dashes in seconds and make you deep wounded by hitting the unhooker. In that case, you are losing OTR the moment you are unhooked.
" Either way, if you get unhooked with a fully revved Bubba in your face, there's no perk in the game (outside DS) that will save you." that's what i mean, even while using OTR with its 3 strong effects, you will still die if the bubba decides to go back to the hook to tunnel you.
"Spirit? Good luck to the Spirit player considering sound is her primary cue while in power and you're now completely quiet. OTR slaps Spirit the hardest out of any killer." Good luck finding a good spirit who is not using MDR + DCB combo so they can go fast and see the killer instinct when they are close. Dried cherry blossom screws over OTR like nothing.
Resilience and mft will allow you to reach others loops better than OTR, and create more distance instead of hoping that OTR does not get useless after 5 sec.
"OTR doesn't require another person to do what it does, but a person taking a hit helps conserve your Endurance and helps you be much harder to tunnel." but it does require another person to be effective, if you didnt need another survivor to cover or hope that the killer is not tunneling you hard enough that you lose endurance 5 sec in OTR would be so much better.
"If your unhooker is unhooking while injured and the killer doesn't take the free down, they're stupid. And if they decide to tunnel afterwards, you have Endurance." but they usually dont take free down, they will slug the unhooker and go for the tunnel anyway to ensure you are out of the game as soon as possible.
"If you get hooked in a deadzone, that's your problem. No perk in the game is gonna save you there." it should, if i am using a perk slot to avoid being tunneled i would expect at least to be able to reach a loop where i can try to do a mindgame.
"Yes, you can lose it after 5 seconds, or you can lose it after 60 seconds. Depends on how you decide to use it. A lot of killers will instantly drop the tunnel if they hear OTR. However, if you play like most OTR users and use it offensively, don't whine about being tunneled in post-game." and that's the problem, whether you lose it instantly or after 60 sec truly boils down to the killer so if he is tunneling you hard enough you lose your protection at the same time you lose BT. and then i have the typical killer main response of "you are using it offensively" like you have actually see me using it.
My point is that OTR does not help you when you actually need it. That you require the killer to not be tunneling you hard enough so you can actually make use of its effects which is a terrible take for a perk that tries to help you avoid being tunneled. it shouldnt have an endurance effect so the killer can nullify it when they hit you with BT.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492505#Comment_3492505
Again, you're inventing these scenarios in your head and using them as an absolute. If the killer is proxying, they likely are not close enough to get an instant hit off unhook. In which case, your unhooker can escort you to the nearest pallet to take a hit. If your unhooker is competent enough, they can deny the hit until you get to the pallet, at which point you still have your endurance.
But even after you lose your endurance, again, you have old Iron Will. You can afford to just leave a tile without alerting the killer that you're doing so, you can afford to play mindgames because your grunts of pain can't be heard, and you have no aura. You have a much easier time losing the killer in a chase. Even if the killer loses you, and stops to kick a nearby gen/pallet to get aura read, your Distortion saves you from that. The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling, it functions TO counter hard tunneling. At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die. Assuming you're able to run the killer for all 5 gens, you likely bought your team a 3-out, which is a loss for the killer. If you even manage to get your 2nd hook by the time last gen pops/is almost done, you should be able to 4-out if you have a gate close enough and your team can take hits. OTR enables all of this. Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value. I've ran killers for 3+ minutes using this same build after they tried to tunnel.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492568#Comment_3492568
No, the devs specifically mentioned that tunneling is a valid strategy, not that it simply wasn't against the rules. For example, bleeding someone out when there's a hook right in front of you isn't against the rules, but it's not really a strategy. It's just BM. Tunneling is an objectively good and efficient strategy, and I would argue that in today's meta, it's necessary to secure a lot of wins.
Also, a killer isn't a jerk for tunneling. A killer wanting to win isn't toxic, they're just sweaty. Being sweaty isn't being toxic. This is something survivor mains need to get through their heads: a killer playing to win isn't personally targeting you, and isn't being toxic. They just want to win as much as you want to win.
You absolutely have plenty you can do instead of going from hook to hook. Your best option is to just play better and loop the killer. Run to a safe pallet, drop it, and run it until the killer breaks it, go to the next one, rinse and repeat. You're now buying your team time to do all the gens, and might even escape assuming you do a good enough job. And if you do, you are the MVP of the game as you've managed to run the killer for enough time for your team to do all gens. If your team is good enough, and they see you're in trouble, even solo Qers will jump in to take a hit if they see you nearby, which resets Bloodlust and gives you distance.
I agree that a killer is partly responsible for the pace of the game, but so are survivors. If survivors are efficient, and split up on gens instantly, odds are they will have 3 gens pop by the time the first chase ends. What chance do most killers stand against this if they don't tunnel? There is a mathematical problem in DBD; survivors are simply too efficient. But for some reason, killers are expected to spread their hooks out, but survivors are allowed to sit on a gen from 0 to 100% and no one bats an eye. Maps are too safe, survivors are too efficient, and gens are too easy. This is also the reason why you see more and more people gravitating towards playing stronger killers; survivors turn into gen jockeys when left alone and unbothered. A killer may either hope to get someone out early and possibly secure a win before the last few gens pop, or may hope for altruistic plays that they can snowball off of. Once the last gen pops and you get slapped with 4x Adrenaline, all bets are off for the killer.
This is compounded by the fact we keep getting more and more broken perks, like MFT, which only further enable survivors to waste a killer's time for free.
inventing scenarios? Tunneling is what i see most in my games. at least half of my games consist of killers tunneling someone at 5 gens so it's safe to say that i know what kind of attitude does the killer have in those situations.
You are also assuming that the unhooker is always in a position that can help you deal with a killer tunneling.
What about if you are going against a nurse, that can literally blink through the unhooked and hit you?
or a wesker hitting you by dashing against a unhooker hitting both?
or a bubba, that can chainsaw through the unhooker and hit you after?
or a spirit phasing behind you both
what about the unhooker is injured, because perks like sloppy exist and you cant always heal before a teammate dies.
you can also be hooked in a deadzone.
There are dozens of situations where the unhooker cant cover you, that's why OTR, an anti-tunneling perk, should not require another person help to do what it is meant to do.
"The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling" it is, the 80sec of endurance means nothing if you can lose it 5sec after unhook as all endurance effects cant stack together.
"At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die" i agree, but you are better off using perks to extend chase like resilience or MfT or adrenaline instead of the perk that is supposed to save you from these.
"Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value" Look, if you need not one, not two but three perks to have a slight chance to survive one of the most common tactics killer use today, that alone speak volumes of how these "antitunnel" perks barely do anything at all.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492414#Comment_3492414
Old Eruption had 3 good effects that barely came in to play if the gen got done.
The unhooker can take a hit for you off hook to conserve your OTR endurance. After that, you still have old IW and Distortion. Do you really think people ran old IW because it was "barely useful"? Killers use grunts of pain to win a lot of mindgames around strong tiles. No grunts of pain means the killer can't track you down with sound. Additionally, no aura counters strong addons such as Compound 21, or perks like Thwack, NTH, I'm All Ears, and so on. The killer can't be right up on you if they hit you. It's either they're right up on you and trying to wait out BT, and then they smack you giving you distance, or they smack you early and you get chased with IW+Distortion.
Your argument is akin to saying Unbreakable is a weak perk because you rarely get slugged.
The unhooker can take a hit and the killer also can choose to ignore it to tunnel you, which is most likely to happen. So keeping or losing your endurance really depends more on the killer than the unhooker.
People ran old Iron will because it was permanently active when injured, not just 80 seconds after unhook so it had a lot more versatility than OTR does. Also At that time, there werent so many aura perks so you could realistically try to hide from the killer if you were injured.
But removing grunts of pain and aura when the killer is actively chasing you to tunnel does not make OTR a good anti tunnel perk.
A killer tunneling you will not use something like THWACK, and would also not stop to kick a gen to activate NTH. They will just chase you using perks like bamboozle or Hex:Blood favor so you cant vault or drop pallets. You may confuse a bad killer with the no sound effect, but any decent killer will tunnel you anyway because OTR's main strength(endurance) is literally countered by hard tunneling.
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@NerfedFreddy said:
They don't want you to do gens and win games by punishing with lack of BP for doing so. They want you to be silly and meme around giving killer free win. No survivors, no Nick Cage buffs as well, only Killer buffs. Classic BHVR
Survivors did get some buffs, although the perks changes are ok-ish at best and the bots are more of a QOL change than a buff.
The hook grabs removal and the spirit addon changes are indeed helpful.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491128#Comment_3491128
And now the perk has three effects, what's your point? Either the killer tunnels and you have all three effects, or the killer doesn't tunnel and finds you again, and you can stealth much better as well as win more mindgames in chase because no aura and no sound. Distortion is an S-tier perk, and old Iron Will was widely ran because it was very strong. Giving OTR an 80s endurance effect on top is just the cherry on top.
Also, old Eruption got buffed and went months unnoticed before everyone started using it. "People weren't using it before!" means absolutely nothing when discussing balance.
The thing is, OTR may have 3 good effects but they barely come into play.
If you are not being tunneled, it doesnt matter if your aura cant be seen or your grunts of pain not heard for 80sec because the killer will be chasing another survivor and you will be healed.
If you are being tunneled, the killer usually proxy camps the hook so they will see you being unhooked, hit you while having BT making you lose endurance and the aura and grunt of pain will barely be useful if the killer is chasing you closely.
So OTR needs you to be in that perfect grey area where you are tunneled enough to use the effects of aura and grunt of pain and endurance, but not so hard tunneled that the killer is already with you by the time you are being unhooked.
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I am kind of meh. I mean, Nicolas Cage looks great and everything but his perks are... weird? I dont think i'll buy him.
The perk changes are ok-ish but nothing to be hyped about. The only one i am happy to get is the Blast MIne buff but the others are pretty much the same.
Coldwind farm rework probably is just some palet reduction and less loops together so meh.
Sadako changes'll wait to see in game.
Bots are fine and a good QOL change to early dcs.
Hook grabs being gone is really good.
And Prove thyself Bp bonus being removed and Spine Chill being nerfed is terrible.
So to summarize
Nic Cage👍
Nic cage Perks😐
Perk changes😐
Blast mine buff👍
Coldwind rework😐
Sadako rework😐
Bots😐
Hook grabs👍
Prove thyself bp bonus removed👎
Spine chill Nerf👎
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492068#Comment_3492068
Or you could break los and force tokens. a rushing blight can be countered without using a pallet... just run behind something. if its lumpy then he just cant hit you, and if its smooth he hug techs and we go back to square one. or better yet, avoid this altogether and just drop the pallet when he starts hug teching.
so i break LOS, he uses 1 token to get to see me again and then has 3-4 more to work a hit. and if he has crow-rat he is getting faster with each rush which leaves you with less and less chances to miss a loop.
and then he hug techs and i need to make a 50/50 decision in 0.2sec of whether the fastest killer will slide right or left or i go down.
or maybe i can drop the pallet and hope he is not using C33 to destroy it inmediately and catch me before i get to another loop.
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492053#Comment_3492053
hes talking about the use of hug tech to get hits on filler pallets. in that scenario, running away is a viable strategy.
and you get hit like what, 10 seconds later?
Unless you are in a map with TONS of pallets linked together you are going down anyway.
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492029#Comment_3492029
if you are talking about hug tech, getting hit by thats a skill issue. Just run away.
"Just run away"
Against Blight😑
Seriously?
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@DavidHypnos said:
Well they just nerfed Prove Thyself which was basically a fine perk that worked best in those near-end 3 gen situations. So idk…
They could…
Make maps a bit bigger and work on gen placement…. Change the way regression works from gen kicking…. Introduce new perks that focus on gen repair in precarious situations….
I don’t like the idea of getting any kind of bonus for gens not being done/worked on in x amount of time. A lot of players already don’t do anything. I don’t want to incentivize people to just hide until they get a bonus or something.
Honestly I think certain perks could use some light buffs that could help without tipping the balance…
Spine Chill’s speed bonus could be applied when in the TR instead of just line of sight
Visionary could provide a small speed bonus during the cooldown period.
Corrective Action could provide a 1% bonus speed per token.
Technician could NOT add an additional regression penalty.
Troubleshooter could remove the speed penalty upon recharging the toolbox and instead use that time period as the “recharge period” rather than making the toolbox available to use again right away.
The last one you meant Scavenger, and yes, i dont know why they felt the need to put an additional 30sec of 50% penalty to all repairs after already going for 5 random rng great skillchecks.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491381#Comment_3491381
they'll just likely put hatch after 20 or 30 minutes.
If old hatch were to spawn after 30 minutes that would be a good reason to justify the existence of keys.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487838#Comment_3487838
That is the answer. The killer isn't making you unable to play the game by tunneling you out. The chases you had where in fact part of the game. If you are dying so quickly then it means the killer was outplaying you.
This is just simply part of the game that will always exist as long as the game is one where survivors can be eliminated. If being eliminated bothers you so much then maybe DBD isn't the pvp game for you.
This is a wrong way of thinking.
"To be able to play the game" for the short amount of time you can last while being hard tunneled does not make this any balanced, or fair, or fun, or a valid strat that shouldnt have some form of counter measure.
Considering how random the MMR can be in dbd, i wouldnt consider being outplayed because the killer hard tunneled a 100h dwight in 3 min and sent him to the lobby before he could touch a gen.
And even disregarding thr MMR issue, this is in the same way as telling "well, i totally outplayed the killer today because i got friend 1, 2 and 3 to use 4 BNP with me on a single gen and finish it in 5 sec. Oh, but the killer could totally move and play in those 5 seconds it took us to do a gen so this is totally part of the game and shouldnt be addressed in any way. If losing 5 gens in 3 min bothers you so much, maybe dbd... "
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Shroud of separation should be given to survivors and shroud of binding should be given to killers
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The killers' powers in this event were severely busted. The exposed power made you unable to cover other survivors being tunneled and the pallet break from distance while the killer was still looping could guarantee easy hits on many loops.
It must have been fun for killers, not so much for survivors.