Nobsyde
Nobsyde
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@Paddy4583 said:
Well if I paly be the rules then first I must amend your question to fit the answer I want so now on page 65 it says she can eat the beef and get out. So my answer is B because who wouldn’t eat beefinstructions unclear → survivor now bears taenia solium in her intestine
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ANTI-DRAMAH QUIZ TIME!!
A survivor is left alone in a dark and ugly forest. Scared as she is, she can't stop thinking about her little sister, Joey, coughing due to the scarlet fever afflicting her. Mrs survivor soon comes to a horrendous conclusion: if she wants to escape, she needs to sit on a generator and repair it with her bare hands.
She comes closer and, first things firsts, she opens the INSTRUCTION MANUAL.
"Welcome to Gen-orator 2003 User Manual! Before every operation, be sure to fix the generator! (How to Fix it? pp. 87)"
The survivor exhales, then finally reaches page 87.
"In order to fix this generator, press m1 for 80 seconds". That's it?! - she thinks
"If you want to speed up the process, you can go in search of a workbench and produce a part, after that..." M1 M1 M1 M1... - she clicks.In this story, if we want to fix a generator by going in search of a workbench and producing a part, we are:
- A. doing an ALTERNATIVE route
- B. doing the ONLY route
- C. doing the MAIN route
- D. all of the above
Pick one!
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Their ability to stay hidden simultaneously comes at the cost of slower progression.My argument is that their ability to stay hidden (and then come back to the same gen) simultaneously, while being slower, guarantees the repair, no questions asked. So yeah, I'm more interested in seeing how you would change the process.
If after testing, it is believed that parts are indeed to strong during the early game, then there are 2 possible ways to change that:
1 is to change the ratio between parts
2 is to change the functionality of parts/the duration of crafting them upon survivor death."x upon survivor death" is a very useful way to compensate for otherwise too strong/too weak aspects of anything in this game.
So, maybe increase the crafting time (a lot), if all 4 survs are alive? Decrease the efficiency of the parts?
Try to make an example that is balanced both for solo-survivors and a swf group -
you're not understanding: if the game has an organized swf team, they need around 30 seconds to prepare a generator to be insta-repaired, without getting noticed.
It's not the same of saying "3 survivors need to sit for 30 seconds on a generator", because
A- a killer can find them and interrupt their progress
B- the progress can be regressedIn the first case instead the survivors are ninjas, and nothing can be regressed.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
If installing parts take even slightly longer than doing the gens (if the killer is distracted) then it shouldn't be an issue, because the generator isn't going "instantly".
The idea of it going instantly is only relevant to the degree a killer can regress a generator. A distracted killer can't.Installing a part: 5 seconds (which one can do at any time and can't be regressed)
Repairing a gen alone with 5/5 parts: 10 seconds.
3 people on the same gen: ≈ 4 seconds.That is insta-repairing, because it doesn't matter if one needs 50 cumulative seconds to produce 5 parts (not considering multi-tasking in this, which could reduce this time to 20 seconds), the only thing that matters is that 3 people need to be near a generator for merely 4 seconds.
This is the "insta" repairing I'm referring to.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape I really have no more energy to entertain this meta-discussion about what is and what is not a side objective, I think it's a waste of both our times, or at least it is of mine, sorry
.That being said, I would appreciate your opinion on this post:
@Edys said:
[..CUT..]
In fact I think you can easily see what would happen in a swf game: once a couple of gens are done, one player can distract the killer by either chasing or even doing generators, while the other 3 build parts and insta-repair every generator, like an invasion of locusts. You have to imagine something stronger than 3 brand new parts for the entirety of the game, that's really too much.>
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@EdysAgain you state that a flat generator is the main route, yet in my example you would never pick it. What makes it "main" if it can be completely avoided and never used?
I already said why:
it " does not require anything aside from the generator."while for the part generator:
it " requires the completion of a side quest (...producing and installing parts)"But I'm gonna be honest, I simply don't care if one route is main, side or whatever. I can agree to call everything as you wish, it really doesn't matter for the sake of the discussion, that is how your proposal is (or is not) flawed.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
What does this have to do with side-questing again?Repairing a generator → MAIN quest
Repairing a part generator → alternative route to complete the main quest, which requires the completion of a side quest (...producing and installing parts)
Repairing a flat generator → main route to complete the main quest, which does not require anything aside from the generator....that said, the real point was not this meta-discussion, but the fact that @NuclearBurrito2 wanted a real alternative objective :P
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape what they are stating is that to do a flat generator or a part generator, is still doing a generator. If you don't believe me, ask them
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I'm not rejecting your definition, at all, I'm just pointing out that they were not using it when talking about "...still doing generators..."
There are 3 definitions right now:- generator: the metal machine that needs to be fixed in order to escape
- flat generator: a generator without any add-on installed on it
- part generator: a generator with parts installed on it
They are talking about generators.
If you still disagree... I honestly can't explain this better
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language is consensus - when WE say "generators", we are talking about both generators with or without parts.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape - no one is talking about your definition of flat generators, trust me. Everyone is talking about simply generators: they are the main objective. how you do them is a different story.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape , I fully understand what you are saying, are you sure you are reading me correctly, though?
We're saying exactly the same thing, so why don't you understand @Paddy4583 / @NuclearBurrito2 point? They are simply saying that at the end of the day you are still doing generators, if you call them flat or part or rainbow or unicorn, they still are generators.
Yes nuclear used the word flat generator differently from what you do, but that's just a problem of misunderstanding, it's obvious what he's referring to the fact that "you still have to press m1 to do a generator". I'm not saying I agree with him, but that's it.Don't argue for the sake of arguing come on
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape, a main objective is something that needs to be done. A side objective is something that doesn't need to be done.
to do a generator (flat, part, whatever): required → main
to search for parts → not required → side
to not install parts → not required → side@Paddy4583 is talking about the first case, you are not considering it because... I don't know why.
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I'll try to use some water on this fire:
@Paddy4583 is stating that to use parts is practically a side quest to repair generators (not "part-generator" or "flat-generator", simply: generators). That is correct, because one can repair them faster through the accomplishment of the side quest, but it's not needed for completion.
Repairing generators without collecting any part is not a side quest: survivors can't escape without repairing generators, it's a main objective.@AlwaysInAGoodShape instead is arguing that to complete flat generators is a side quest as much as completing part generators, because survivors don't need one more than the other. Could be true, but it's actually a strawman, because Paddy was simply stating that the main set "generators" is required, if those generators are pertaining the subset "flat" or "part" was not under discussion.
Now kiss.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
There are multiple ways to inform survivors where the parts are installed. if you have your own suggestions, feel free to comment them (:The point I was making was not that solo-survivors wouldn't be able to discern if a generator had parts installed on it or not, but that they wouldn't know if it would be a smart choice to hide/make parts or do the gens. I only play solo and use Bond, and oh boy what do my eyes see :P.
So yeah, everything revolves around the last few sentences of my post (which I can't see now
): if there are two interchangeable objectives in a game, communication is of the essence, or nothing is getting done. On the contrary, when communication is available, the game becomes too survivor sided.In fact I think you can easily see what would happen in a swf game: once a couple of gens are done, one player can distract the killer by either chasing or even doing generators, while the other 3 build parts and insta-repair every generator, like an invasion of locusts. You have to imagine something stronger than 3 brand new parts for the entirety of the game, that's really too much.
The only moment where I would see those parts as useful, and non-disruptive, is if the game is stalled. Imagine a 2v1 / 1v1 situation, game is dragging on and no gen is nearing completion. Now could be the time to make parts available (to spawn, to build... whatever) - but even this could be exploitable if the trigger is a simple timer.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@EdysYour comment just disappeared. Do you have it saved in a draft?
no, for some reason if I edit it a few times it disappears and needs to be approved by the mods.. it will reappear eventually
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The mechanic you are proposing has some flaws:
early game: it is absolutely mandatory for survivors to get at least 1 to 2 generators not later than a second hook. The only way to do this is by... doing generators. Now, consider your proposed timing: 10 seconds to make a part + let's say 10 seconds to reach a generator (your 5 seconds seem to me a bit too optimistic). It's 20 seconds to add to finish a generator (because "we" are assuming to not waste the part on the first gens, but keeping them for the late game). That's 25% increased time to repair a generator - smart survivors won't do that, but wait for...
middle game: assuming there are 2 gen left, this is the time where the map is most of the time becoming split, with a high risk of a tri-generators pattern for the killer in the late game. This is where killers have established their momentum, with at least one survivor hooked (almost) all the time and someone ready to be dead on hook. Now, let's imagine survivors stop doing gens, and begin production of parts, with a "best" case scenario:
- 1 survivor on hook
- 1 survivor ready to save the hooked one
- 1 survivor on a building table far away from the killer
- 1 jolly survivor
If the jolly survivor is not able to produce a part for some reason, he'll probably be either on a gen (and thus the only one that the killer will hear and chase), be doing a far away gen (leaving the 3-gen pattern for the late game) or wasting time crouched somewhere. Furthermore, if it's not a swf game, there's no way to tell who is doing what: one could be going to produce a part only to find the table already occupied and either waste another 10 seconds of his time waiting, or take time to go back to some places more useful for the team.
tic-toc, tic-toc the survivor on the hook is quickly dying / the killer is finishing another chase (→ another hook), no gens have been done, and the 3-gen pattern has not yet been defused.This leads us to the biggest issue:
late game: due to how middle game unraveled, we now either have a 3-gen pattern or still 2 gen left + only 3 survivors still alive. Now we also want to assume that one generator has at least 2 parts installed - that would make around 30 seconds for 2 people to complete a gen. That's great! But hey, killer is camping this generator, so why not go and try to make some other parts? Well, because the problem would be the same as before: there is still only 1 table away from those infamous 3 gens, and if nobody is near a generator the killer is free to go exactly there - then maybe it's better to wait somehow near the generator and see if the killer goes away? But then again, you're not doing the parts! You see where I'm getting at?Having multiple objectives that are alternative one to the other (because +700% to repair speed means they are, let's be frank) works only in a team using communication, otherwise there won't be enough focus to either things being done. Of course a swf group won't have any problem, but for solo players... this would be hell: you either stay immersed somewhere, waiting for a possible opening, or you try to do "something" and running the risk to be the only one doing that, hence the one being found by the killer.
It's basically not different as it is now, with one big exception: the lack of alternatives to doing generators mean that there will be a higher chance of survivors trying to do them, or at the very least staying somehow near them. If one can hide away, produce a part, install it, then rinse and repeat... this won't happen.
In conclusion, a secondary objective like this would make a swf group simply op, while it would make the game too tedious and/or frustrating for solo players.
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To get all coins was very, very time consuming, especially due to queue times, but honestly... does it really matter? Skins are a very good treat, 9 skins!, but what is good about the event should be.. the actual event! Don't we all get a bit sick of the same game after a while?
Let's remember what was Hallowed Blight - that to be honest I enjoyed as well, even if it was more like an April Fool game mode due to its flaws
:- survivors just rushed to suck cancers, then killed themselves on hook
- killers had to use iron grasp and agitation to have a chance to collect as much nectar as possible, and even with those, it would most likely end up to at least 2 games to fill up a vial. Countless times I filled 5/6 of a vial and had to basically "waste" a game, event wise.
During moonrise, instead
- doing generators was the only way to be sure to at least get some event points
- a hooked survivor meant the killer could break a lantern → survivors were incentivized to save them, at least early in the game
- after the change in the point system, even killers had a fair possibility to get 30+ points per game, even without red envelopes burnt
Yes it sucked that sometimes points were not given, that the first day was bugged, and that for a week killers got too few points leading to massive queue times for survivors and a mere 10 to 20 points as killer per game, hell, I was 36 points short of my 9th coin, but this was without a doubt the most fun, rewarding and balanced event so far!
I say gg to the devs, they are on the right path.
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as for the "make activated totem visible", if you mean to have a different auras on the gens I don't know if I agree with you: an activated totem/gen will most likely have survivors on it, and that would be basically a BBQ perk under steroids!
That said, totems would be recognizable by their colour:- gold: inactive and untampered
- blue: active
- red/black: sabotaged
- white: broken / gen repaired
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(my previous reply to you is under approval because I edited it too many time, it will be back eventually, I think
)@Paddy4583 said:
Killer side needs a bit of work, as relying on people remaining on hooks to complete a secondary objective I feel is a bit unfair when they have to apply the pressure along with it, maybe have it on a timer like PGTW and make the activated totems visible while timer is going?
Yes I completely agree with you, that's why this is what I stated:
For every survivor hooked he gains the ability to interact with a special totem for the time the survivor is still on the hook, and for no less than 15 seconds
In other words, no matter what happens to the hooked survivor, the killer will have at least 15 seconds to do whatever he wants. After the 15 seconds elapse, if the survivor is still hooked the killer can still interact with a totem, otherwise he won't be able anymore.
It's just like vessels, but much more time is granted to the killer → camping shouldn't be an issue at all.Note that this also gives a bit of time to killers even when the survivor is dead on hook, differently from the moonrise event.
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@Paddy4583 said:
Some
good ideas, the time to activate a totem doesn’t seem worth it for potential increase.the way I was thinking this is that an activated totem shouldn't give too much of a benefit to the survivors to avoid gen rushing, but still be worthy point-wise even when the totem takes a longer time to be activated (here's why the difference in points gained at a 15 seconds threshold).
I came up with 8 seconds as a baseline because that would balance exactly a 10% increase in gen speed with a single man repairing it (10% of 80 seconds → 8 seconds). Again: in my opinion an event shouldn't change the base balance of the game, which went through years of refinement, but should give the option to try different strategies / game-play styles. But still, it's just my opinion
!A possibility could be to have a maximum of 5-6 difficult skill checks if the time to activate a totem increases, and/or remove any skill check if a totem has been sabotaged.
Also when a skulls been used to activate the totem is it lost, or can you still escape with it for the points?
I was thinking of it breaking - that's the reason why survivors get "medium" points if they complete a generator with an active totem: survivors should still be incentivized to activate a totem and not just camping with z skull and try to escape without taking part to the game. The whisper-like effect should help as well with this.
Thanks for the feedback!
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(I posted a very, very long comment which went I don't know where... I hope moderators can still see it, because I didn't save it anywhere
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Rationale
an event should feel refreshing but still maintain the focus on the goal of the game, that is to complete generators, work as a team and escape, for survivors, and hook survivors as much as possible (not merely "kill" them) before "time" runs out for killers. At no point bad behaviours for both survivors and killers should be encouraged
Mechanics
SPECIAL ITEMS:
- Special sacrificial totem: one spawns right next every generator.
- Skulls: around the map there will be, hanging from walls and trees, several glowing skulls (number depending on offering, default 4?). They have 3 states: brand new, cracked, destroyed. Survivors can pick just one skull at a time. When they do, a whisper-like perk effect will be activated on them. The whisper effect is inactive in a 16 meters radius of a hooked survivor (encouraging skull bearing survivors to try and go for the save) .
SURVIVORS:
- The pick up of a skull is quick (1-2 seconds)
- A survivor carrying a Skull can use it to activate a sacrificial totem near a generator. This action takes 8 seconds and can be done by only one survivor at a time per totem/generator. The survivor will be faced with 1 difficult skill checks every 2-3 seconds (the same difficulty as the brand new part) and must be completed in one go
- -If a skill check is failed / the action is interrupted, a loud noise will alert the killer and a red smoke will come out from the totem (10 seconds?). Also, that totem will need 1 extra second to be activated (1 second for every fail, limit to 25 seconds). The totem will glow blue once it's working.
- if the totem is successfully activated the adjacent generator will be repaired 10% faster, and the survivor loses his skull - free to go take another
- A survivor escaping with a skull makes extra points (see at the end)
KILLER:
- When a skull is successfully installed on a totem he receives an audio cue, non directional (like when a dull totem is destroyed with thrill of the hunt)
- For every survivor hooked he gains the ability to interact with a special totem for the time the survivor is still on the hook, and for no less than 15 seconds
- If the hooked survivor is carrying a skull, it cracks / is destroyed according to its previous state (brand new → cracked → destroyed). If the skull is not broken it goes back to its place.
- When the killer can interact with the special totems, he can decide to either destroy a totem already activated, or sabotage a totem still inactive
- By destroying an activated totem, its effect are nullified on its gen for the rest of the game. The original skull goes back to its place in cracked state
- By sabotaging an inactive totem (once per totem) the totem will need double the base time to be activated (that is, (8 seconds + number of fails on the totem) * 2, to a maximum of 25 seconds). The totem will be changed in color (it darkens maybe?)
Points
I won't give numbers, but three tier of difficulty (easy, medium, hard) to accomplish the task, the points should scale accordingly.
Also, I will only consider event points, not bloodpoints for now.SURVIVOR
- successfully activate a totem in less than 15 seconds - easy
- successfully activate a totem in 16 seconds or more - medium
- successfully repair a generator with an activated totem - medium
- escape with a skull - hard
KILLER
- sabotage a totem - easy
- destroy a totem - medium
- destroy a skull - hard
Ok, this was long but as promised here's a TL;DR - in-game friendly hopefully!
TL;DR
- two new interactive elements spawn: skulls hanging from the walls/trees, and a special totem adjacent to every generator
- survivors can pick skulls and use them to activate the totems. The action takes time and will need succesfull skill checks, must be completed in one go without fails, or the activation will be increasingly more difficult
- an activated totem will make the reparation of the adjacent generator 10% quicker
- when a survivor is hooked, a killer can sabotage an inactive totem, making its activation much slower, or destroy an already activated totem, nullifying its effect