Hex_TunnelBait
Hex_TunnelBait
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- Hex_TunnelBait
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No, hatch is fine. As most people have said, it doesn't count as a win for the survivor, but it gives them a reason to keep playing. *Especially* in solo queue. Getting teamed with a new player who dies at 4 gens or a player that suicides on hook after first down should not punish me by putting me in a completely inescapable position.
If you posted this because you are genuinely seeing survivors in every other game sitting on the hatch, then that means that you are winning every other game and have nothing to complain about.
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@JPLongstreet said:
For this to work, we would need a solid way to keep sweats in both roles out of the casual mode, where they'd just be looking to dunk on people, and also not hurt queue times in the process. That would be the magical formula imo. The honor system wouldn't work here; have you met us? 😑
But with lobby dodging and the resultant backfilling already wreaking the matchmaking right now, these modes would make it far worse.
I am also dubious the game has the numbers to support split queues.
Lobby backfilling is wrecking the MMR system? How so? I have never heard of that before.
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I've been saying that this feature should be added for a while, but it should be basekit and not require a perk slot. It should just be a built-in "press ___ to die" prompt when you're slugged and on death hook. Dying this way can also give the final survivor a chance by spawning hatch without eating a penalty, since so many killers abuse slugging to bypass the hatch mechanic. And that's fun for literally none of the survivors involved.
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Maybe using a BNP should consume the entirety of the toolbox instantly, similar to how syringes consume the medkit? That way, you get the 25% quickly added to the gen, but can't continue to repair faster from the toolbox after?
Idk, just brainstorming. But I feel like none of the people posting about "nerf SB" or "ermergerd Prove Thyself" or BNPs right now remember that solo queue exists and will become completely unplayable if every killer-requested nerf went through. It's already a nightmare.
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Agree with a lot of points, but definitely not #1. I've never understood the "dont nerf Nurse/Blight, but buff every other killer to their level" argument. People making this statement always seem to have high MMR 4-SWFs as their reference point when saying that, but solo queue exists and so do casual/unskilled survivors. If every killer were suddenly on Nurse/Blight level, solo and casual survivors are going to get steamrolled constantly and stop playing.
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I think fun should be the primary concern for killer powers *on both sides*, but add-ons and perks should prioritize balance. I enjoy playing against scratched mirror Mikey for the jumpscares or Huntress for the thrill of dodging hatches. The killers are fun, even if there are perks or add-ons that can really sour the experience.
However, killers like Knight and Skull Merchant are miserable to play against, regardless of what perks or add-ons I/they use. Those two killers feel like they were designed around a spreadsheet of kill rates rather than a sentient person considering the concept of "fun".
I also wish BHVR had kept the flashlight interactions with killers and instead implemented more fun ways for survivor items to interact with killer powers. Like maybe toolboxes allowing you to silently disarm Trapper's traps, being able to use Medkit charges to pause the buildup of Plague's infection, or having increased vision in Dredge's nightfall if you are holding a map, etc.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406398#Comment_3406398
Would the gates still require like 20 seconds to open as well? Because it seems like this is just making you have to do the standard opening process twice if you don't have a brand-new part.
Yes, opening the gates would still take time. Maybe we could shorten it to 15 seconds as some compensation? I know it sounds unappealing but the point of this idea is to give survivors something to do that isn't a generator.
I did have another idea where an additional specially-marked chest would spawn that would contain a machine part that could be used to instantly repair a gate, instead of a BNP. But I worried that was overcomplicating it.
Maybe something similar to a series of Skull Merchant's drone hack mini game lasting approx 30 seconds, and you can leave and resume progress whenever needed?
That'd be fine. I'm all for adding new functions to the game that aren't button-holding simulators.
Yeah, I like the sound of that idea. Survivor main stamp of approval 😉
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Would the gates still require like 20 seconds to open as well? Because it seems like this is just making you have to do the standard opening process twice if you don't have a brand-new part.
That being said, I'd be okay with this so long as the repairs had something more intriguing than holding one button to repair with occasional skill checks. I dont want any more of that mindless "hold one button and watch bar fill" gameplay on survivor. Maybe something similar to a series of Skull Merchant's drone hack mini game lasting approx 30 seconds, and you can leave and resume progress whenever needed?
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I suggested that the survivor's hook timer should slow based upon the number of remaining gens if the killer stays within, say, 12 meters of the hooked survivor.
The amount could be 1 / (number of gens remaining - 1). For example, if a killer face-camps at 5 gens, then the survivor on hook's timer will decrease to 1 / (5 - 1), or 1/4 of the normal speed. If a killer does it at 3 gens, it's 1/2. By 2 gens remaining, the hook timer is 1/1 speed, or 100% speed, so that late-game camping is unaffected if a killer just needs to secure a kill.
I also think that the survivor that is face-camped should receive constant BP for distraction points. There should be no reason at all that I get face-camped by a Bubba at 5 gens and leave the match with 1,200 BP whereas everyone else is over 10,000. It's not my fault that the killer chose to camp, nor is it my fault that my teammates couldn't get passed the camping to get me. It's also because the killer camped me that they got to progress objectives without issue lol.
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Yeah, the fact that there is a tome for the next month or so that encourages people to play as Dull Merchant has me considering an extended break from the game. Genuinely don't think that I've ever had a fun or exhilarating match against a Skull Merchant - win or lose, they've just been a pain.
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At the very least, if there is only one survivor left standing and you're slugged in the ground, there should be a "press ___ to die" option after 30 seconds or so. That way, you can leave with earned BP, you don't have to spend minutes on the ground unable to play, and the hatch can spawn. The match is likely over at that point so imposing a DC penalty is stupid, and killers shouldn't be able to easily cheese the entire hatch mechanic through slugging.
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@durag_demon1 said:
It don't matter ..they are just going to nerf it. Because meta shake up or some dumb sh!t
:((((
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I've said this before in the similar thread yesterday, but I'm 100% down for removing hook suicide as a mechanic so long as survivors are given more information in the pre-game lobby regarding what killer they're about to go in against. This game has too many design elements specific to one killer, such as Plague's vomit (which some people consider triggering) or Clown's screen distortion (which can cause motion sickness). I personally cannot play against Clown without getting sick and getting headaches, and there should be a method in-game for me to be able to leave that match without getting locked out of the queue since I wasn't given the information necessary to leave the lobby before the match started.
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Definitely agree. I'd much rather spend 10 min in queue for a fun match rather than have a 1 minute queue followed by a waste a waste of 40 minutes because i got my 3rd or 4th 3-gen Skull Merchant in a row.
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Out of curiosity, what would this solve? It delays the first hook, but a slugged survivor still needs to be picked up and can be camped. As a survivor main, I dont want the pace of the match to be a train wreck of mandatory slugging.
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@NothingThere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404697#Comment_3404697
BHVR should make accessibility changes and then remove suicide as an option.
Strong agree.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404697#Comment_3404697
Accessibility is an issue, but I don't really see it related to hook suicide at all.
Ultimately, "if you can't play out the game for 100% of time, you shouldn't match up at all no matter what" is the basic rules of online game, it's not like your reasoning is "legit" for throwing the game and ruining everyone else.
Also do note with that change survivors will be able to always counter any killer by perk choices, we need to remove the capability to change loadout in lobby too.
Accessibility is absolutely related to hook suicide. This game intentionally plays into phobias for horror elements (e.g., puking Plague) and mechanics that are specific to one killer (e.g., Clown's screen distortion). It's not fair to say that if someone has issues playing against just 1 out of 30 killers, then they shouldn't queue to play the game at all. I should be able to play a game that I thoroughly enjoy while also not being made to puke all over myself from a 1-in-30 matchup because someone else disagrees that my illness is "legit" reasoning enough and cares more about their own win.
If survivors can't consent to the killer match up that they're given so that they can go next, then there needs to be a way for them to quickly leave the match without getting increasing queue penalties and losing earned BP/pips. Thus, hook suicide is an option.
However, if the change is made to allow killers to be shown in the lobby, then I agree that survivor perks should be locked so that perks can't be tailored to that killer.
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Strange that we have had such opposite experiences. I mostly play soloQ or with one friend + two randoms, and most matches have been either a 4k or a 3k + one survivor getting hatch. Either way, the killers have been winning. Nerfing dead hard and self-healing mean that survivors are much less self-sufficient and need to rely on each other more, which has made soloQ with lack of communication a nightmare. I've even seen a bunch of soloQ survivors start running keys + distortion + urban evasion builds again and letting teammates die so that they can just selfishly save themselves given what a ######### show soloQ is now.
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I would agree that hook suicides should be removed, but only if survivors are given more information to consent to the match that they're about to go into, such as knowing what killer they have in their lobby.
I know that everyone is going to jump on me for that statement, but here is an example: I cannot play against Clown. Getting hit with his bottles gives me severe motion sickness and can have real-world physical detriment to me. If I am shown that the killer in my lobby is a Clown before the match, then I can leave and queue again and no one suffers. If I am not shown that info and get into a match with Clown, I have only three options, all of which suck: push through sickness, hook suicide, or DC. The best of these options for me is hook suicide. If hook suicide is removed, then I am down to two options: get physically ill or suffer from loss of item/offering, lose BP, de-pip, and get a queue penalty. In other words, I am stuck between two awful options for no other reason than the killer's choice to play as Clown and the game preventing me from consenting to play against that character.
Are all survivors that hook suicide doing so for legit reasons? Definitely not. But you can't remove the option without affecting the people that do.
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I agree that prestige levels should he hidden, and I also think that player names should also be hidden until the post-game lobby on the off-chance that survivors are streamers that the killer can snipe from having their info shown ahead of the match. Especially given that killers enjoy this anonymity until post-game while survivors don't.
Alternatively, show the killer's prestige level and an icon to indicate if they are TTV so that I also have an opportunity to consent to the match-up.
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There are definitely interesting things they could do. They could make it so that a toolbox can be used to disarm Trapper's traps without making noise (not full sabotage like before), or toolboxes can use charges to repair locker locks when Dredge breaks them. Medkits can use charges to slow Plague's infection build-up, but not recover health while infected.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380385#Comment_3380385
Basekit BT also provides 10 seconds of Haste, meaning that unless you are there to hit the unhooked survivor the moment he touch ground most of the time it's not convenient to tunnel because the chase would be longer than necessary as that survivor have enough time not only to gain distance, but get to any loop they want. Also, in all the games I played as survivor I didn't see the sheer amount of tunneling everybody is claiming in this forum. There are some games, but most of the time the killer don't tunnel.
So, stop unhooking in front of the killer, using that BT boost to do a block or healing under the hook and you would see how tunneling is not such a problem. In fact, if anything the change to DH would incentivize people to not just unhook for the sake of it, but try to do a safe unhook and not literally kill your partner because the killer is in front of them and don't give a damn about the Survivor's Morals Rulebook.
Also, funny how DH never was an anti-tunneling perk, no one never defended it because its anti-tunneling utilities, but know everybody says that the problem with DH changes is that tunneling would be now a bigger problem as DH was detrimental to fight against it. Nobody could come up with a better argument to argue against the change, I guess.
For the past several weeks, I have had killers tunnel directly off-hook in at least 40% of my survivor matches. I play mostly on the survivor side, so maybe I just play more survivor matches which would naturally lead to me seeing more instances of it. Either way, the BT and Haste do not stop it.
Not unhooking in the killer's face is also not always up to the survivors. If a killer is camping the hook - which also happens very often in my experience - then survivors may have no choice but to do an unsafe unhook. And especially in solo queue, where survivors often lack the coordination needed for a safe unhook against a camping killer.
I would definitely consider DH an anti-tunnel perk given that it gives a survivor something to defend themselves if the killer waits out the incredibly short BT. Clearly from my low number of posts, I'm new to this forum so I don't know what people have said in the past about whether DH is an anti-tunnel perk. But I'd appreciate not having my posts condescended as "I guess nobody could come up with a better argument against the changes" simply because you haven't heard it described that way before.
Anywho, DH change bad.
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@SaltiestChip said:
Also, you have basekit borrowed time. So both people unhooking get to run away with free hits AND the person hooked also gets dead hard. Why would I go after the person who just unhooked? 3 hits to down again versus 2 hits to down is simple math. Survivors AGAIN got more ways to prevent tunneling and keeping killers from actually getting kills and you are still complaining about it IN THE MIDDLE of every major killer perk currently being used in the meta to slow down the gen rush meta WHICH IS STILL A PROBLEM.
This patch is going to be survivors finally being forced to deal with more dangerous chases off of hook and you guys have some protections for getting off hook and getting away so you can stop blaming every single killer for being a camper because of that face camping bubba you ran into one time.
We have a reason to commit to chase now, but it isn't enough to over shadow the need to defend gens from gen rush, and we just lost some of our most important tools to do that.
>> Why would I go after the person who just unhooked? 3 hits to down again versus 2 hits to down is simple math.
Yes, that is the point. This will incentivize tunneling.
Basekit BT only provides endurance for 7 seconds or so, so the killer can simply wait that out and then immediately re-down the survivor. DH used to be an option to protect the unhooked survivor if the killer waits out BT, but now it's dependent on whether that survivor had a prior unhook to activate the perk.
Given that DH now can't be reliably used off-hook and gen regression perks are getting gutted, a lot of killers are going to tunnel even more because A) no active DH makes it even easier than before, B) its going to take longer to get an unhooked survivor healed, leaving them vulnerable for longer, and C) making the game a 3v1 will be an efficient way to offset the loss of gen regression perks.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379637#Comment_3379637
Dead Hard doesn't deactivate until it actually blocks a hit. So messing up a dead hard doesn't prevent you from using dead hard later.
They said that you're competing with other survivors now for getting unhooks to activate the perk, so there's a good chance you'll never get it activated in the first place.
And I agree that this will encourage tunneling, especially for the first person hooked in a match. That person cannot use DH in their first chase. If the killer comes back to hook, their options are between the injured person with no DH or a healthy unhooker that potentially now has an active DH. It's a no-brainer choice. And as someone who has experienced A LOT of tunneling off-hook at 5 gens the past few weeks, I have less than zero faith that killers will not take advantage of knowing that an injured person can't have DH.
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As I said in the original post, im aware this is basically FTP lmao. Adding as base kit would mean survivors don't need to reserve a perk slot to combat tunneling, and this system has FTP in the unhook animation so you don't need to take an extra second or two trying to give the health state if a tunneling killer is charging at the survivors during the unhook.
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I really like the idea of having a 40K cap, but with no cap on each individual category. Especially in the current tunnel meta, where the tunneled survivor probably has no chance to earn any altruism or objective points and the non-tunneled survivors dont earn as many chase points based purely on the choice of the killer.
There shouldn't be a situation where a survivor is contributing to the team's escape, be it through gens or killer distraction, for free because the game stopped rewarding them.
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I really like Astral Alliance, Boon: Silent Ground, and Escapist. Actually, I'm shocked that Escapist isn't already a thing.
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Personally, I feel like there should be a "press active ability button to die" option when you're on death hook and then put into the dying state / slugged for more than X seconds. Just let that survivor go next without losing their BP and hitting them with a DC penalty.
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I play probably 70% survivor and 30% killer. I dont mind dying in a match as a survivor, especially if it's due to a great stealth kill from a Ghostface / Myers, a long throw from a Huntress, or other fun and skillful killer plays. My issue with the game, though, is that the killers have become very unfun to play against. A large portion of my games lately have been against killers like 3-gen Knight or Skull Merchant, or Pentamento + Thanatophobia Plague or Legion. I find myself playing games where matches grind to a screeching halt to the point that I feel frustrated and exhausted from a game that used to be fun.
I also totally get that tunneling is something that killers sometimes need to do, but yesterday I had a Clown, an Artist, and a Nurse tunnel me relentlessly off-hook at 5 gens (so 3 of my like 10 matches). I must admit that it makes me roll my eyes whenever I see killers saying "I tunnel cause I have to" when most tunneling I experience is so early in the game that there is literally no need for it, especially given that I know I'm not in the top-tier MMR that everyone always brings up in tunneling discussions. Killers also tend to tunnel the weakest survivors, aka the least experienced survivors, so it feels patronizing when killers say that the key to avoiding tunneling is to "get good" as though they aren't the ones booting bad loopers from games so early that there is no time for them to improve.