CorgiSploots
CorgiSploots
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@ArcT said:
These are the big changes from consultants after months and months of feedback?
That we're getting instead of any kind of anti-tunnel, anti-slug, endgame rework, or MMR fixes?
I legit finally pulled the plug and uninstalled the game just for the questionnaire to list under main reasons I'm leaving "excessive tunneling and camping." Like be so fr BHVR it's enough of an issue to have listed as a main reason people are leaving, but not enough to actually address?
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@CorgiSploots said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067273#Comment_4067273
No because this is the only game where we had to have a abandon feature because killers humped for 4 straight minutes while the otherside had to sit bleeding out. Any other game would be flame broiled for how disgusting that behavior is. But oh no we have to pretend people actively causing these issues aren't insanely insecure in their day to day.
Also adding to this, not one post I've seen on this event has been positive, it's just on how insanely cruel killers are playing. How most hide their names to trash talk in EGC. How one person is tunneled out before the game has progressed beyond a minute. And the reason why they do this? Because they can because BHVR has all but told them their behavior is acceptable. When in any other game they know this would result in a suspension or a ban. And when BHVR decides the money pit created by them isn't worth it and we all suffer whatever insanely overreaching they do I have no sympathy.
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@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067139#Comment_4067139
Look you might not like how they play but can we knock off the they have "irl issues". The vast majority of the people I've been annoyed at for how they play and when I've been able to interact with them in EGC or if they were a TTV, in their chat. I've backed down at my annoyance at them because they have been decent people (well, from what I can tell from my little interaction with them). It usually turns out it was nothing personal, nor were they trying to be toxic, ruin everyone's day, etc. They just were playing "I see survivor, I chase, down and hook them." Nothing more deep than that.
No because this is the only game where we had to have a abandon feature because killers humped for 4 straight minutes while the otherside had to sit bleeding out. Any other game would be flame broiled for how disgusting that behavior is. But oh no we have to pretend people actively causing these issues aren't insanely insecure in their day to day.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067150#Comment_4067150
I'm sorry to inform you that if you say you mostly win without cheese than you are clearly low MMR, even though MMR goes up with wins, yours just somehow doesn't because reasons. You are only a true killer main if you complain endlessly about how hard your matches are and how every match is against a comp 4man and about how much you lose while still being upper MMR because, again, this magic invisble number somehow never changes. You are never, ever allowed to say that it's fine to lose to people who are better than you. It's maps, perks, RNG, and survivors being OP that cost you your deserved wins. You're are also, in fact, a crying survivor main, somehow.
I will readily say that maps n m1 killers are a issue that desperately need looking at. Trapper I know is often brought up and he does need help. But he and a few others are product of when the game was stealth based rather than chase. And as much as I rag on BHVR, I don't think there really is a viable way to help him that wouldn't make him soft skull merchant 1.0 miserable. Then we have maps like Coldwinds that is WAY too small and is a massive buff to speed killers rather than helpful to m1ers, or the eyrie tiny map that's just a massive deadzone. The Game being just a miserable time as killer for being pallet city so you are having to try so much harder.
I honestly just get tired of the same tired excuse of why it's okay to make 4 others miserable when it's honestly just better to find out what you lack in your playstyle and improve. I was bad at mindgames for a long time and I set to learning and watching how teammates looped when I'd play survivor and it's helped tremendously. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067136#Comment_4067136
Again with the us vs them mentality. First i'll point out there are many things killers have to do that are the same, but i don't want to get into it. I will say that this mentality of yours is that of a scrub.
I would suggest reading the free ebook by game designer David Sirlin who talks about this, but the point is simply this.
If i am playing the game to win, then my goal is to win the game. The game itself doesn't know rules like "tunneling or camping or cheapness" all it knows is "did i win". So i am going to use a strategy that i think will lead to the best chance of me winning. There are 2 points about tunneling that can be said. Either its a strategy that has a counter, and you need to learn the counter and get better at the game and deal with it. Or the strategy has no counter, and its unstoppable.
In both cases, if the strategy has a counter, then its on you to learn the counter and not on me who might be employing the strategy. Then, you simply learn the counter, and now you are no longer a victim to it. If the strategy HAS no counter, then wouldn't i be a fool for not employing said strategy in my effort to win? Why would i not use the most effective tools i can in order to win the game?
Compare this to say, chess. If you make a mistake in chess and lose your queen, should i like "not take the queen" because its "cheap"? Or should i punish you for your mistake, and win the game because of it? Why would i not do the thing that is likely going to lead to me winning the game?
Now, it could be true that maybe your goal is not to win the game, and that is fine, you have a different goal. But then if that is the case, you shouldn't be getting mad at people who are queuing up for a competitive game and trying to win.
That's a lot of word salad to not address at all what I said. Tunneling and camping is not in fact a strat, it's an abuse of game design that wasn't thought about or how it could be abused. Also by your own fallacy argument you have us vs them mentality by inferring I'm survivor main. Official stats already showed the dreaded swfs win 1% over casual. Because they aren't actually that huge of an issue. Killers are just too used to these 'strats' and when hard countered cannot deal because they never addressed what in their playstyles that was the actual problem.
Every argument I've ever seen on this is the equivalent of something like Overwatch telling top 500 players they're need to be handicapped because plat players are upset they get rocked in qp. I want my skill to be seen as skill. Not abuse a mechanic devs didn't think would be an issue and everyone around me has to build around the off chance I play that way. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067132#Comment_4067132
Look, i'll be one of the first to agree that tunneling is bad for the game. But you need to stop blaming the players for using the strategy and start blaming the devs.
Blaming the player is completely ridiculous and just leads to more us vs them mentality.
No I will blame the player, BHVR is at fault with how much they flip flop on issues, but I'm tired of being lumped in with jerks who have irl issues they take out on people in a game. Not even league of Legends community sit on their heels and not call people on this. A toxic Yone is a toxic Yone it's not Riot's fault he's a loser or whatever irl. And no one pretends him being that way is just a strat
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/465663/tunneling-issue
Run DS. Its a free perk accessible to all. So there's that one. There's also several anti-tunnel perks that you could be using, but at least DS is free.
I'm so tired of this argument, why is it survivor players HAVE to run anti tunnel instead of teaching killers to make up for whatever game sense they lack. I don't need to tunnel, I 3 to 4k fine, if I lose I lose I wasn't better and that's fine.
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It's a massive issue that is costing us new players and burning out players more. I don't understand why the devs are so content with forcing 4 people to have to babysit some jerk's fragile ego. We're honestly the only game I play with severe dc penalties while having no actual competitive mode to justify, while looking the other way at the biggest reason FOR said dcs. It's honestly one of the most solvable things we have. An honor system with rewards would go so hard. If you as a killer/survivor get low honor enough the queue takes longer to place you. People who play well will be rewarded and the toxic players get to play with each other until they either stop playing, or shape up.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062057#Comment_4062057
The purpose of looping is to buy as much time as possible for your team… not being in chase forever or escaping it…
Yea and eating a down because there's no counterplay isn't looping. It shouldn't be a guarantee again Ghoul is in severe need of nerfs. Michael's horrible rework is a great example of this.
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Honestly I think a lot of his issues would be fixed if they ditched the favor the shooter bs on killer. His big ones regarding reveal seem heavily on the ping
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059361#Comment_4059361
If they're waiting for you to drop the pallet then just don't drop it. It's like huntress. Even if you go down anyway, it's a better outcome.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read Nothing should ever be a guarantee that defeats the very purpose of looping. Kaneki needs actual nerfs not bug fix buffs.
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@MagixD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061668#Comment_4061668
Knightlight plays this game for a job, not for fun. Bad example. Also 5-10 killer players in the world doesn't represent the rest of the people that play killer.
By your logic we shouldn't buff Trapper because there's people out there who have gotten multiple 4ks in a row as Trapper.Trapper quite literally can't be buffed he's a bygone product of a version of the game long since gone. Any meaningful buffs will pretty much restart old skull merchant matches where it's 40 minutes of holding gens.
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@Dem34888 said:
I can slightly dispute this here. But unfortunately, I don't have a video demonstration on hand right now
The point is: on the killer's side, this might not mean "another loop" but a change in the course of the trial as a whole. The killer bears more responsibility for his actions and decisions than each survivor individually, so the difference of one circle or one missed hit due to ping provides a simply cosmic advantage and depends not on the skill level, but on how close a given player is to the server...
P.S
You must understand that if you make a mistake while playing as a survivor, there are others who will back you up. As a killer, you are always alone, and no one will help you
Regarding the video, I'll try to capture more footage of the server literally stopping/not registering my hit/pallete stun because a survivor/killer is closer to the server, given that our difference is 40 ms. But I also can't dispute that people with a 500 ping aren't being kicked; that's clearly strange
That still makes absolutely no sense and TBH I'm tired of the handholding excuses when it comes to killer. I plow through lobbies with a podcast blaring and holding my laziest corgi. It really only boils down to knowing survivor tendencies. Outside the most brutal bully squad I do fine. And in that case they deserve it and I'm tired of acting like outplaying the killer is the most horrible thing when survivor skill cap is a near skyscrapper.
This is honestly the only game I play where one side is expected to be pitch perfect while the other has to be guided through everything and told that their bad internet is everyone's problem among other things. We're losing near every new survivor player we get due to issues like this where on their screen they're getting hit when they're no where near the killer. That's excluding the known issues of tunnelling slugging and camping -
@Phantom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058879#Comment_4058879
The thing with Billy is that against him you can at least dodge his chainsaw, like there are counter-plays against him. Which is why I absolutely love versing Billy's. Especially the ones who only M2. Just GOATs. Only M2-ing, curving, and getting insta-downs? Well played man. Those gamers get all my respect.
Oni's hits in 2v8 however, especially on bad servers, don't have much counter-play. Hence why I personally don't like versing him.
Plus it doesn't help how many are legit just trying to recreate the nearly 20 minute long matches over everyone stuck on heals. Like I really don't think a lot of killer players realize they create their own massive issues. Legion was removed because he A enabled Oni to much. B because it was just awful to spent 20 minutes just perma healing. And C because the matches were too long it exasperated the queue ridiculously to the point people were waiting almost an hour to get a match.
2v8 needs to be essentially quickplay, in and out and as much as killers don't want to acknowledge it, there needs to be a steady supply of survivor players. I play spirit with shadow class and do fine, I've never felt the need to drag it out, slug or tunnel. But the more I play the more I see we're gonna end up with heavy handed anti mechanics to allow survivors to breathe let alone play. I'll even have a teammate now and again that will go out of their way to ensure 1 survivor has less than 5k on the end card. Like why? There's no risks the rewards are tied to doing the objectives, there's no matchmaking whatsoever or rank. More and more I see a large margin of killer players honestly just being the old Babadook meme while everyone begs them to just play normal. I like playing killer in the mode I like practicing looping without fear of my mmr tanking. -
@Nicholas said:
DbD uses the network philosophy commonly called 'Favor The Shooter,' which works in an FPS where everyone is a shooter. With DbD, the devs call it 'Favor The Killer,' but as there's only one Killer, it perpetually favors one player at the expense of the other four. I'm glad you posted a clip with ping, which is a great example of why this system is problematic, frustrating, and ultimately unfair for Survivors. Until more raise the issue, nothing will be done.
The devs have publicly stated they are more sympathetic to The Killer because they think a denied/rejected hit is more devastating, as it could mean another loop. They have zero concern for the Survivor on death hook, where that fake laggy hit results in them dying. Apparently, getting killed isn't as devastating or frustrating as a rejected hit. Killers are so accustomed to every hit connecting due to the P2P where The iKiller was the host, that when Dedicated Servers launched, the devs had to publicly declare that little will change for Killers and hits are still handled on their end, the big exception is that the server will validate the hit if their ping exceeds 350ms but as you’ve shown, it doesn’t even do that. The threshold is probably 1000ms before a hit is validated.
What boggles my mind about it in general is we legit cannot have a comp mode as long as such measures are in place. How they think it won't immediately devolve into the worse toxic hellscape is amazing to me.
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it's the fault of the devs, not survivor players. Devs should be pushing killer players to improve their game play not allow them to make a dead lobby because they can't loop/face a wall when picking up. I knew the killer buffs would end in this result it's not actually improving anything it's just skating people through the pretend ranks to make them feel better. When they hit the skill difference in the lobby they hit it hard and it did nothing for actual good killers whatsoever because they are going against people of their same skill same as before.
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@cheapslurpiee said:
I think "strategic slugging" as many in this thread are calling it is simply bad game design. A couple scenarios mentioned like "someone sabos hook with person on shoulder... drop person and chase sabo person" and a couple more make sense... that person can be picked up by other teammates if the other can loop well enough.
Slugging for a 4k at end game though?! Oh, you've lost me.... it's literally anti-game. Anti-agency. Your best version of a gameplay loop forces a player to be option-less for upwards of 4 minutes? Which is roughly 26% of what I suspect is the average length of a match of 15 mins... crazy work. I
Because it is a horrible very toxic design, there really isn't any other games that say "Yea it's totally A okay to make it where the other side cannot play whatsoever."
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@upsideinsanity said:
The body blocking is one thing but getting stuck because of them is wild. Also seeing them spawn on top of things like boxes or goop piles in midwich is great -_-
I love how one of the biggest current complaints is the AI dog getting caught on everything and BHVR amped it up to 15 AI on a given map getting stuck in random places.
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The problem with Skull merchant is her design as is still just chess merchant as before. She's just busywork as a kit that honestly should of been left on the shelf and revised later down the line. She herself isn't particularly strong but elements of her are just well boring to put out as a killer, and boring to interact with on a survivor level. I myself got her adept and popped her back in the back of the closet. I don't find Predator casual cosplay chapter compelling, and plenty of other killer players were the same. I understand the need to make licensed chapters unique and appealing to the holders of them. But it's come often at the expense of the original chapters. We need 2 teams one for whatever license they're on and one for original content.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856483#Comment_3856483
Slugging is a thing because they have added so many perks, add ons and items to counter hooks.
This is simply not correct. The only things they've added have been to deter camping and tunneling, and do nothing if you leave the hook. And while there are a disturbing number of killer players who see that as synonymous to "hooking" and can't literally think of any other way to play the game, that's entirely and completely wrong.
Anyone who says or thinks this is because of perks or mechanics is being disingenuous to everyone, possibly including themselves.
The core problem isn't that killers slug. The core problem is why killers feel they need to slug.
People will always feel the "need to slug". In general, there are (unfortunately many) killers who put ego into everything, especially on these forums. Losing a game, or even not "winning completely" is not even a thought that crosses their minds. They can "play normally" or "play how they want" and stay in their own/appropriate MMR bracket, but many of these players aren't satisfied with that because it means they will only get about 60% kills, and eventually will not be winning all the time.
When that happens, they start using strategies that are "easy to execute, and hard for survivors to counter". They will tunnel until that inevitably stops working for them, and currently the meta is to simply slug until even that stops working for them. Usually, once they hit the absolute limit of their ability, they post on the forums for "devs to do something, because they insist they have to tunnel and slug every game".
But you don't have to. You can kill about 60% of the time in easy games, or you can sweat incessantly and have really frustrating games and still kill about 60% of the time. And your insistence that this is "a focus on the core problem" is, simply put, just another plea for the devs to buff killers and/or nerf survivors. At which point the cycle will still be identical, just with a few more easy wins in between before again hitting your skill cap.
The mindset for killers is the core problem. And somehow this is the only PvP game I've ever seen where players seem to expect to win every game, and when that doesn't happen, scream at the devs to fix it. That is the core problem, and no amount of balance will change the fact that people will seemingly always feel entitled to win all the time. The only thing that changes is what "flavor of the month" perk/mechanic/item is being blamed for it this time.
Long time lurker but your last paragraph is absolutely the problem at it's core. The over confidence in which I see people believe BHVR won't in the foreseeable future throw up their hands and go "Yes, these methods are indeed toxic, please stop." is honestly amazing. Realistically all it takes is a clickbait video by a party big enough outside DBD general circles about how one side makes it where 4 players in the lobby are unable to play and is endorsed by the devs.
Because at the end of the day, no matter what people say bully survivors flashlighting/sabo/etc are interact-able actions all of which the killer can deny even easier now with combos like weave/franklin which is meta. Survivors have second chance perks but if a killer wants you on the ground miserable and unable to do anything unless you or or team are god tier at survivor there's really nothing that can be done.