BbQz
BbQz
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You give players the capability to ruin each other's games they will gladly take it and embrace it. Dbd has a freedom problem that slowly being fixed since release. The devs apparently don't have a person who "plays nasty" and there test games are groups of friends with unspoken rules you can see it clearly by looking at the game from release to now.
While almost any other game has limits" like the creators predicted people will be abusive so they block off your teams spawn from the opponent dbd doesn't even consider that a issue slugging tunneling camping. They are allowed because they are "strategies" but I know a not so insignificant group of people don't care about getting a 4k as much as ruining the time of 1-2 players as being able to flex power over some one is a very killer like mind set this game is very primed and ready for groups of people on both sides of the fence going in with the only goal of making some one of as many people as possible miserable.
So yeah survivors and killers shouldn't have the power to ruin people's games remove and replace theses mechanics
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Lightborn exists. It does the same thing for killers that distortion does for survivors: Shut down a gameplay style.
Literal balance.
Survivors need 4 perks to do what one killers does but the killers isn't token based
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730933#Comment_3730933
Because if you are tunneling the same guy over and over again, you have 1 survivor that goes for the save sure, but the other 2 survivors just get to power through gens for 6 hooks. You still have to down and hook that person, even if you hard tunnel them. So generally even if you spend 30 seconds doing that, the guy is on the hook probably for at least 15-20 seconds. So you are talking at least 50-60 seconds of 2 survivors just powering through gens times 6. If 2 survivors can't finish 5 gens in 6 minutes, with a 3rd supporting periodically between each hook state. They are doing something wrong.
Also survivors can make that call to NOT unhook the guy, because it takes 6 minutes to power through those hook states. So if the killer is waiting for the save to hard tunnel they are gonna be waiting a while.
Also, giving up should be a bannable, up to PERMABAN for doing it constantly. It ruins games more than anything else, and if you just take a look around. If someone wants out of the game because they don't like it that much, they should DC, sandbagging is bannable as well, so no issues there if someone "intentionally sandbags" they get banned for it, so that'll be the deterrant of that.
You have a lot of faith in banning, punishment isn't the awnser my friend. Also a killer that needs to hook 6 times to get a kill in the current system the killer just loses. Also it appears you are definitely emotionally invested into the topic and while passions are welcome they can create hard to navigate discussions as the need to punish the unknown group that has slighted you clouds your ability to see the problems that causes these situations to happen.
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I personally a list of the top leaving early reasons should be complied for example
1.specfic kill
2.being first hook
3.rushing tomes
4. Bad team mates
Then each issue should be tackled accordingly for example if everyone leaves out of SM matches the instant they start would making it harder to do so suddenly give the players the will to seriously play? Doubtful...
If tunneling as become so prominent that people getting early hooked 30-60 seconds into the game means they think they should move on. Taking agency away from a player who already feels powerless in the situation isn't going to help them..
We need solutions to reasons people want to leave not ways to circumvent them from leaving or punishments for wanting to leave. Maybe there's a strong incentive for a killer to spread hooks around like a stacking repair speed debuff for each first hook that goes away on player death. Maybe a post death activity could be created that allows people to earn BP or effects the match in some way that can be slightly engaging so even when you lose you can still help in some way.
And obviously any changes made need to be balanced and buffs to killers should be considered accordingly
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@Reinami said:
A better solution to survivors is to make it impossible to remove a survivor from the trial early. My suggestion to address camping, and tunneling is usually as follows:
- Remove the 4% mechanic so survivors can't nope out early
- Remove the AFC mechanic, you won't need it.
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state.
- Basekit kindred so you know what your teammates are doing and if the killer is camping
Sharing only the first hook state means, if you hook someone, then tunnel them, then hook them, then tunnel them, then hook them, you didn't kill them, you just burned through 3 of the survivor's shared health states. Which mean the absolute earliest it becomes possible to eliminate a survivor from the game, is on the 6th hook.
Also, because you only share the FIRST hook state, and not all of them, you won't feel cheated because the rest of your team wasted all the hook states and now you are dead on your first chase. This way at worst, you'll still get a "second" chance that is all your own.
This also means weaker players are able to play in teams with their friends on not be afraid of just dying immediately.
Camping basically becomes nonexistant, because sitting through 6 hook states to remove someone from the game is a full 6 minutes. More than enough time for the other 3 survivors to finish 5 gens, 99 both gates, and coordinate a save to get all 4 out.
Tunneling becomes pointless, because tunneling someone for 6 hook states means just that much longer that the other survivors go unbothered working on gens, so you'll have to spread pressure.
I'd couple this with some basekit changes and perk changes for killer to make it so you can play the game without taking 4 slowdown perks as well, but in general this is one of the simpler ways to deal with the issue imo.
Well I like the how does that stop? Tunneling if everybody shares the hook state, you're going to have to get through those hooks anyways so you might as well just keep targeting, camping and hooking the weak man. As now you've gotten the people who are actually skilled on their second hook state. Obviously you don't have the answers to all situations as this is just a idea you came up with, but I personally been stuck on hook for all three of my health States because people are just oblivious they're focused on what they're doing. What happens when a survivor is stuck on hook for six states? What kind of user experience are we giving them where they can't get off the hook? They can't struggle and they can't leave without penalty? And you can bet your bacon. There's going to be three man survive with friends that are going to do that just because they think it's funny
And somebody who really just doesn't like that killer and doesn't care that they need to get six hooks and they just keep running towards the killer. Now you took a person who was originally just going to give up and be out of the game, making it a 3v1 which while unlikely is still winnable to now he's stolen everybody's first hook states I think that turns this into a team game which while I've had some convincing conversations about it, I've never been convinced this is a team game… p We don't win together. We lose individually. We don't share points. We earn them individually. Our MMR goes down even if the rest of my survive with friends escape while survivors have a shared goal, it's always better for the killer to hook someone else besides you if you're both on death Hook with all that being said, it's bad enough. Survivors can sandbag me intentionally or unintentionally drop the killer on me in Chase in order to save themselves. Now I have to worry about a bad player making my game worse.
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@this_aint_h00die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729858#Comment_3729858
not really begging. :) "The second you realize" not every SM main plays dirty or toxic (like myself) the sooner you'll realize that theres no real need to hate her, shes been nerfed, and people such as yourself are stuck in the past, there are plenty of killers that have very similar functions, and are even much better killers to run then herself, the only reason people hate her is because of her release and toxic SM's now, which if those are the only reasons, then theres no way you can justify that "Grr! 😡 Skull Merchant make angy!" People can play toxic with literally any other killer, even trapper can tunnel.
I started playing dbd this year. Only recently got into the forums and went in completely blind. The first 2nd 3rd and even after watching videos on how she works ends with me not liking her at a core design she does to much for to little broken isn't the right word and she very beatable but I value my time like many others a serious game vs SM is just going to take longer and be more hiding less looping then other killers so more time for less reward sad but true Looping SM just feels like a contest in holding W. So I see her I wave good bye and go on my way maybe they will rework her? Maybe not but I don't see enough SMs where I feel bad for my decision which means I'm not wasting much of my personal time.
P.s. please don't reply with some moral agruement about my "team" sorry but as I'm sure you can say the same to others my time is just personally more valuable to me then yours is. Sorry not sorry
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
Can't you just use Fogwise to call out the killer's location at any distance while also progressing a generator and not have it take 2 perk slots? I don't see the calls for nerfing this perk now which should tell us everything we need to know about the question asked in this thread.
Yeah I've even tested this in swf friends using a 4 man with deadline for wise and stake out. It was a fun gimmick build but didn't see us winning any more then normal and undetectable is fairly common as a basekit for killers or add ons or perks. And my team at least was able to work on gens the whole game having one person just stand there doing nothing?! A killer with slow down perks with only 3-2 people working on gens at a time is gonna be a long match for survivors
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1 AFKing is really hard to prove and running to a gen and clicking repair with toggle on in settings and walking away is a really easy way to die. As you fail every skill check and keep working on the gen.
2 you don't get punished for not working on gens you can't get banned or otherwise from it
3 while griefing your team is actually wrong and bannable I doubt it happens much as you need to prove that the person intentionally failed skill checks or blocked a window or door purposely instead of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time
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@Krazzik said:
Remove unhook attempts unless you have an active Deli or are in the basement with Wicked. Second stage doesn't have skillchecks to speed up the time, easy.
If the survivor afks or just runs up to the killer and lets them down em, that's already against the rules and they can be banned.
And what's stopping that survivor from just running to the killer? You can't force people to play no matter what. And banning people for having rough days is a quick way to have a dead game and really really bad media backlash as click bait story's about people getting banned for fake stuff like "controller dying" or any other non sense go wild.
Really your best solution is just let them leave no penalty and give a bot. Atleast the rest of the people can play a proper game. The issue with this solution is the them vs us mentality that will make (us) feel like they lost and it's hard not to punish the other side to fix a problem because bad people need punishment not to get there way well here we are like the old hatch stand offs lol
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Just saying more bloody streamers means less dying on first hook. And more points and fun for everyone
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Nemesis is actually a killer I main. His tentacle attack is really great. Especially considering more people dont cleanse when they do you get killer instinct. If anything he needs more zombies and better add one to make him truly fearsome. As comparing neme to Wesker is just sad as Wesker does literally everything better :(
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- Hooks should break it's a resource that should be managed.
- A broken hook should have a tiny zone around it that allows a survivor to recover from down state to avoid bleed out by killer failing in point one.
Honestly hooking is out dated in my opinion the cage system honestly seems way better as it prevents tunneling and camping. I think I similar solution of a unhooked survivor being able to run into a locker and randomly teleport out another during unhook endurance would solve a similar issue with less perk reworking.
But as for hooks being replaced by cages I think that would make a lot of killers less angry when it comes to losing you target from body blocking flash lights pallet stuns. While I think removing all of those and perks related to it is a huge undertaking the game would be in a way healthier state if survivors didn't need to be carried
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Maybe survivors should be able tol see the killer they are vs to make it more even. Would save a bunch of dying on hooks vs skull merchants lol… maybe at the 15 second mark you can't edit your load out or perks but it reveals the killer and people can decide then if they wish to move forward. Killers gain insane amount of info during the lobby and can shop and cherry pick non swf non flash lights or items they can even check profiles and find newbs. Survivors can't do any of that and you see that fact ripple into the match when people give up early
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720850#Comment_3720850
But if it is counted as "void" or "null", why is the survivor getting points? Why is the killer not getting points, same as the survivor?
That is something i do not understand. If it is "void" then one of two things should happen:
- The survivor gets escape points, the killer gets the same points
- The survivor does not get any points, the killer does not either
If the hatch is rewarding the survivor with lot of points (again, i know that 2500 are much less than escaping through the gates, but is still a lot) and the killer does get nothing, then the hatch totally counts as an escape for the survivor.
I actually agree that should be a real "null", so either remove the survivor points or give the killer the same points. After all hatch is purely "RNG" unless some offerings are in place, so i think it makes sense.
Also, fun fact, its RNG for both sides but survivor gets 2500 points for finding it (and escaping of course) but the killer gets a mere 250 for finding it (and closing it), so the reward for the RNG clearly favors survivor. It is clearly counting as a escape for the game.
If hatch offered zero points the pursuing it would be pointless the minute a person or even two died the remaining players would just AFK near hooks and the game would end. The potential of getting points for a lost game keeps the game going and interesting to the survivors and the killer.
This is the issue with slugging for the 4 kill as that strategy becomes more common survivors are more likely just going to give up as the game win potential reaches 0. Or worse they will see the writing on the wall and think their time being used to waste the killers time is a good trade. As I've watched survivors during a slugging at two scenarios wait till full bleed out then hide during end game collapse just wasting every second which realistically could have been used to play almost a whole second game...
TLDR: hatch keeps players playing the match even when winning is unlikely, circumventing it just makes players give up early or intentionally punish killers by wasting time and vice versa
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@Yharwick said:
I go against SM very rarely but had one today and I really enjoyed it, the drones are actually interactive in a fun way if you're not in chase and if you are you just stay away from droned areas taking scans if you need to as long as you're not already at 2 unless you're injured then you can.
Playing against SM with my gf though I realized why people might not like her. She's one big knowledge check with so many mechanics the game doesn't teach you or really tell you about and I feel like the level fo enjoyment playing against her is directly correlated to how interested you are in learning those mechanics in the first place and how well you can actually play against them. She even said to me "I wouldn't have minded going against her if I actually understood what was happening" which tells me if a person isn't going in knowing the stigma of old merchant the new one has flaws but they're greatly embellished by the community.
This reads like a SM main with a survivor mask.
Perhaps in very low MMR SM is fine. And obviously you can win against them but it's a hollow victory you didn't win against the skill of the other player you won vs a killer that takes almost zero practical skill.
School merchant can ignore mind games in tiles just by dropping a drone which is free value for no skill. Forcing you to leave the tile, potentially going into a dead zone or eating a scan reduces chase as she now gains haste... This isn't a knowledge check for No amount of information can remove a stack off of you. There's no counter to her ability. Crouching everywhere is not engaging. And while my girlfriend who likes playing dead by day like does play skull merchant, it's because the only thing she needs to do is hold W click M2 whenever the person starts. Looping her since she doesn't know how to deal with that and then go back to holding W until she can hit M1. And to top it off games are normally 3v1 right off the bat for reasons posted here which makes her games normally a 4k but she is incredibly bad and does not play video games
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The removing self unhook won't make people quit. They play the game and come back because there's aspects of it that they really enjoy. They most likely leave or wish to exit a game as quick as possible when they perceive that those aspects of fun are not in the current match. Not allowing them to leave isn't going to suddenly make them a willing participant. It's only going to extend the time that they have to ruin your match.
Also it's worth nothing this isn't a them vs us problem people don't just join games to die on the hook. People giving up can happen at any time and in any match and I would argue most people are susceptible to it atleast once in a while. There's no rounding up these people. There's no identifying them. New ones are created daily, some for the very first time and for reasons that we can't predict or comprehend while it's worth noting for the sake of argument that there's people who always" stick it out" It would be wrong to assume those people force their ideology on others or apply expectations to other people based on their own experience and beliefs. This is just a game after all and many people live with the mindset that the minute the game isn't fun. They start a new one while I don't particularly believe that as strongly as some if The match is just not fun. I'm not staying, especially when I love the core game as much as I do.. being on hook gives you a unique insight on the team as a whole and when I see two people hiding in lockers and one on gen on other side of map with no sign of movement at a 50% progress gen the game is clear as day to me. I'm also some one who has just go through 3 hook stages struggling to the last second after getting hooked once as the team just does nothing. But hide and work on gens sadly this isn't what I would call engaging and my time would have been better spent just struggling and dying
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729011#Comment_3729011
I never mentioned banning but I think removal of the unhooks will help because the whiners will quit playing when they can't nope out of any match they dont like just because it's a certain killer or map, I'm going to continue to punish them until BHVR does something I'd be expecting threads in the future of these people complaining they're being reassured while trying to give up and spam unhooked so they can't give up afterwards, if they want to ruin my game I'm gonna make sure they dodge everytime they see me in a lobby that way I'm eventually stuck with only people who want to play this game and not give up. If more people joined me these players would either stop doing this or quit playing when they're being reassured and t bagged everytime
While I get the frustration this problem isn't a them vs us issue. You can join a game where some one gives up for reasons you cant possibly predict or understand. Grouping each and every person into a nice tidy target to hate on while convenient does nothing to solve the issues. As players and especially ones who "stick it out" we shouldn't expect or demand others to follow any code or expectation I or anyone else sets. We should be investing the "why" this is happening and how to mitigate that for future games. Every problem has a solution the job of behavior should be finding it.
Or More likely perhaps they just don't think it's a problem.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728977#Comment_3728977
This is good I wish they would totally remove the ability to unhook yourself without slippery meat on and then change the perk so you can attempt to unhook yourself twice without going into struggle.
Either this or everyone on the forums need to come together with me and start reassuring these players to troll them back and make it miserable so they DC and you can unhook the bot to go back to normal play.
Punishing people who want out isn't the answer. Not being able to self unhook just means people afking on hook or running towards killers or worse sandbagging. Taking people's agency away doesn't force them to comply and be a good team mate. It will only exasperate the situation. No matter what your feelings are you can't and behavior can't force people to play with they have preceived a situation they don't like.
Banning isn't going to work as the game honestly can't afford to lose that many players lol. And other then vote kick system that replaces people with bots that will never be implemented or removal of the DC penalty the path of least resistance is and always will be dying on hook
Edit: a removal of the struggle and bleed out also making unhooking people less urgent which may result in people being stuck waiting not playing for extended periods of time for better or worse people rush for unhooks because no one likes hanging there and every additional second is more motivation to not play or struggle off
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Personally I feel the biggest issue is the prevalence of camping and tunneling in the meta (proxy) for the former. The system really rewards the killer for this strategy. This is emphasized by soloQ and the fact there always seems to be one survivor who's skill and playtime doesn't match up with the rest of the team and killing the weak man out seems really appealing.
Some players have realized that a early hook isn't just that but a death sentence bad positioning and caught in a dead zone for a quickly ended chase alerts the killer that you will most likely be a easy kill and a 3v1 game is just way less stressful for the killer then a 4v1.
This is the core of the problem this game has. Newer killers will come to realize that certain strategies pay off really well and win using them instead of building a good foundation and understanding of the game the killer and the maps. When those strategies boost them into mid to high MMR they are forced continuously use them as with our them the game is unplayable...
I enjoy chatting with killers in a semi constructive way in end game chat and many of them have expressed there reasons for how they play is because it's how you win. And other ways just don't work..
How to fix this problem ? I have no clue the game should be killer sided to some extent by nature of the game but stopping tunneling is a monumental task as you need to give a killer a reason that benefits them to spread hooks out maybe some debuff on the survivors for each first hook related to repair speed. Maybe some blood points multiplier for each new hook which will encourage newer players who really want blood points to spread hooks. But sadly it isn't only a killer problem as survivors can complete gens some times impossibly fast.
Final thought maybe even repair times are set by a killer by killer basis for a killer like nurse needs way less time to find and start killing them a trapper or Freddy. Lower tier killers struggle in higher levels of play as their kits don't allow full map suppression as easily as others.
All of theses issues are interconnected as a killer has true justification for slugging camping and tunneling to secure a win