APOPALYPSE
APOPALYPSE
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@Ilikechips said:
My favourite part is how they buffed Diversion(pebble perk) which only really worked if you could hide your aura.
Now the killer can watch your aura while you throw pebbles lol.
2 dead perks.
Hi Likechips, that is not how Diversion works, your Aura is not shown when throwing the pebble. Also I would love if Diversion sent the pebble 21 meters instead of 20, small buff. But no Diversion is in the best place it's ever been and I'm sure it won't be receiving anymore buffs, at least not for a very very long time.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812552#Comment_3812552
Ah yes, hangman's trick. Noted oppressive perk. I know that when I combine that with territorial imperative it's just free wins. Survivors are helpless before my ability to see them go into the basement on a cooldown and if they happen to be near a scourge hook boy howdy are they in trouble.
Jokes aside your post does the opposite of what you're trying to illustrate. All it shows is that killers only have a handful of actual decent aura reading perks and having a single perk that requires no input from anyone counter all of them, indefinitely is problematic. You could list notable oppressive and commonly seen perks like shattered hope and awakened awareness all day long, but it doesn't mean anything because killers only have four perk slots.
Hello Ohyakno, I’m not sure what you were trying to accomplish here, making jokes about Scourge Hook; Hangman’s Trick, Territorial Imperative, Shattered Hope, and Awakened Awareness. You either aren’t a player of DbD, have no real hours in the game, or play little to none of either side; but with that being said I wish to have serious debates and not childish banter. 29 Perks is hardly a small handful and that is still not including the Add-ons like I mentioned and while I don’t want or need more Aura blocking Perks on Survivor side, nerfing the only good one while not buffing the others is a bad choice. And honestly, the build you mentioned, go try it out, as long as you are decent at Killer I’m sure you will have easy wins. 4 Perks that hide vs 29 and still going up that show Aura… I’m sure the next killer in 2 months will have at least one Aura Reading Perk and 3 Add-ons. Cry me the river on why Survivors need skill… but killers don’t. Go play Call of Duty and not complain about Wall Hacks, they may be cheating but Wall Hacks is still Wall Hacks.
At least give me a thought of the Distortion discussion or if you could change it.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812354#Comment_3812354
The reasons why nobody at the time complained about these perks are quite simply because 1) most of them weren't used (Tinkerer and Discordance were meta but the others would never be seen) and 2) because most of them were so weak that there really wasn't any point in complaining abou them.
That would be like complaining about No Mither because it allows survivors to pick themselves up an infinite number of times (well, at least until they bleed out).
Spies From The Shadow is still a useful perk. It's not as good as Nowhere To Hide but I wouldn't sleep on it. The difference between this perk and many others is that it's almost never used. People haven't talked about Knockout for years even though it is a very unhealthy perk. But as long as nobody uses it, the issue is non existent to most players.
The point about Iron Maiden and Blood Warden was that the information you get is so bad that it you could take it away and the perk would functionally be the same. Survivors won't complain because a killer perk is too weak and vice versa. Mostly, that is. There are some people that play both sides enough to have an interest in such things even though it doesn't affect their prefered role but they are the exception.
Tinkerer was nerfed about 2 years ago and I remember that there were at least some complaints regarding its pick rate. If there was ever an issue with the information I do not remember. One reason why Tinkerer wouldn't be as much of an issue is as you pointed out, that survivors know when it is in play and it also doesn't show them but the gen. To be honest, I would like it if they brought that Version of Tinkerer back. It was never an issue to me but I accepted it as part of the meta shake up.
With a bit of basid human deduction you can also conclude that a killer has Lethal Pursuer, Nowhere To Hide and Friends Til The End, which are the 3 most used info perks we haven't talked about yet, according to Nightlight.
Nowhere To Hide can be countered by not trying to hide when the killer approaches and instead running away, which isn't too different from what many survivors already do. Also, the killer has to kick a gen, so they would know someone was around there anyway, which means that it really only helps against survivors that hide in close proximity to that gen. Friends Til The End can be countered in pretty much the same way as BBQ and Lethal Pursuer is not supposed to be countered. That might sound like bad design but if you take the perk at face value, you'll find that the main thing it does is give start the game quicker. The killer won't have to guess where the survivors spawned, which really only is an issue on maps like Haddonfield that have weird and unpredictable spawns. It's a one and done (other than the secondary effect, which is neat but not a big deal either).
So I disagree that the complaints about info perks overall are due to a lack of counterplay but because of overexposure. It's the same as with slowdown perks. Arguably they aren't that strong anymore but it's not fun when you have to play against the same perks pretty much every match. I role my eyes at Lithe and SB too even though both of them are fine in terms of strength.
My idea for Distortion was to restore all tokens on hook but your idea is even better. You could start with 3 stacks and have a limit of 5. When you are hooked you restore 2 or 3 stacks and every 20 seconds you spend on that hook, you gain an additional token. That would make it stronger against camping killers too.
Edit: I overlooked your second post, sorry.
I don't like the idea of a survivor being able to actively avoid getting chased throughout the entire match. That's why I think hooks should be the only way to restore stacks.
Okay, I think I veered too far from where I wanted in this discussion, while yes Nowhere to Hide can be countered… if or by the time most Survivors figure it out is probably around the second time the Survivor is found. Friends Til the End lets you know so yes you can counter it in a way. I wasn't trying to go in depth about the Perks of today because there are plenty that do strange actions and the Killer gets rewarded with Aura Reading. There is no Counter to Lethal Pursuer as you’ve said even though even with Distortion you still run the chance of being caught, lol. The statement of all the perks I mentioned before were in some way shape or form a way to help track, see, or to know where Survivors are or would be. Doesn’t matter if they we good or bad at the time they were still there, they could be used and they could be countered. Yes if a Killer downed a No Mither player and didn’t pick them up within 32 seconds then yes the Survivor would run away… which still has counter from the Killers. Knock Out while is annoying you are correct, it’s not used enough to be a problem so no one really complains about it… but plenty of Killers run Aura Readings, not all but plenty. But to have an argument about Distortion users because it takes away from their many perks abilities. Why do Survivors have to “Get good” while Killers can open a locker, kick a gen, break a pallet or breakable wall, Survivors get an unhook, etc… the list goes on.
The discussion about Distortion hiding your Aura from the perks I mentioned before is so small it didn’t boost its usage, now BHVR at one point added a Token to Distortion because of all the massive and easy amounts of Aura Reading Killers was getting. Then they gave back 3 Tokens but at a recharge rate of 30 seconds while in Killers Terror Radius why… because of the huge list of perks that could show Aura Readings. Then they nerf the perk while also making two strong Aura Reading Perks in the same patch??? What???
Now Survivors have 3 Perks outside of Distortion that can hide their Aura, but they are not as good as Distortion as they require a prerequisite.
Sole Survivor
Boon: Shadow Step
Off the Record
These 3 perks and Distortion are the only 4 Survivor Perks that Hide Aura, but sadly they are also the only ones that have counter play; Distortion’s counter play is just using your Aura Reading Perks until the Survivor’s Tokens run out (which is bad counter play but the tokens aren’t unlimited.)
But Killers have Aura Reading for just about anything, they have 29 Perks that provide Aura Reading… and that’s not including the Killer Add-ons.
Simply load into a match, Aura seen (Lethal Pursuer).
Killer carrying a Survivor in the Dying State, Aura seen (Awakened Awareness and Scourge Hook: Hangman’s Trick).
Killer hooks a Survivor, Aura seen (BBQ & Chill, Alien Instinct, Friends ‘til the End, and Grimm Embrace).
Survivor unhooks Survivors, Aura Seen (Scourge Hook: Floods of Rage).
Killer kicks a Generator, Aura seen (Nowhere to Hide).
Survivors Healing themselves or other Survivors, Aura seen (A Nurse’s Calling).
Survivors complete a Generator (Bitter Murmur and Rancor).
Survivors being in the Exit Gate, Aura seen (Blood Warden).
Killer Searching a Locker, Aura seen (Darkness Revealed).
Survivor in the Dying State, Aura seen (Deerstalker).
Survivor enters Dying State while other Survivors working on Generators, Aura Seen (Eruption).
Survivors are working on Generators and hitting good Skill Checks, Aura seen (Gearhead).
Survivors being near a Dull Totem, Aura seen (Hex: Undying).
Survivor Blessing or Cleansing a Dull or Hex Totem, Aura seen (Hex: Retribution).
Killer simply Injuring a Survivor, Aura seen after 25 seconds (Hex: Face the Darkness).
Survivors near unopened Chest, Aura see (Human Greed).
Survivors near dropped items, Aura seen (Weave of Attunement).
Survivor enters the Basement, Aura see (Territorial Imperative).
Survivor Stuns or Blinds the Killer, Aura seen (Nemesis).
Survivor tries to blind the Killer, Aura seen (Lightborn).
Survivor Fast Vaults a Window or Pallet, Aura seen (I’m All Ears).
Survivor drops a Pallet, Aura seen (Zanshin Tactics).
Survivor escapes chase, Aura seen (Predator).
Killer Snuffing Boon Totems, Aura seen (Shattered Hope).
To nerf one perk while all these others exist in the game is silly and completely one sided as the Killer can bring up to 6 different effects that provide Aura Reading completely counter Distortion in the 1st 36 seconds of the match. And while yes Survivors do have Perks, Items and Add-ons that allow them to see the Killer, it’s nowhere near as impactful and mostly tends to them doing nothing to help the match.
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Hey I have an idea… might be a hot take but take a look
Start the Trial with 3 Tokens.
Whenever the Killer attempts to read your Aura, Distortion activates and consumes -1 Token, applying the following effects for 9/11/13 seconds:
Blocks your Aura from being read.
Suppresses the creation of your Scratch Marks.
For every 30 seconds spent in chase with a Killer, Distortion recharges +1 Token, up to the starting count.
For every 60 seconds spent doing Conspicuous Actions while in the Killer’s Terror Radius, Distortion recharges +1 Token, up to the starting count.
For every 90 seconds spent doing Conspicuous Actions outside the Killer’s Terror Radius, Distortion recharges +1 Token, up to the starting count.
Distortion does not activate when you are in the Dying State.
I thought about this and wondered if this was too much to balance, and while it would be I believe it should be doable as they have other Perks with complex layouts as well. I feel this is still rewarding to the players who still play the game but don’t overdo it with the recharge rate while also still punishing the players who don’t play the game as intended. Basically the closer and more active you are with the Killer the more Tokens and quicker recharge rate is, but the further and less active you are the less and possibly no Token are given. Also I gave the timer a 1 second increase across the board, not much but it’s a small buff.
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@Xernoton said:
Current Predator is literally worse than nothing and old Predator wasn't very useful either. Especially not with perks like Lightweight around.
Bloodhound has never been a good perk either. When a survivor is injured you won't have much of a problem tracking them anyway. Stridor was almost never used for the same reason.
Whispers is nothing that a little game sense won't provide either. You know that someone is in that general area. But if there isn't anyone there, what are you doing on that part of the map? It's redundant information.
Territorial Imperative is one of the worst perks in the game. Survivors don't go into the basement unless you force them and even then it's bad because you're not around to do anything about it. Iron Maiden has never in the history of this game been used for information, has it? You use it on maybe 3 different killers (Bubba, Huntress, Trickster) but not for the info.
Discordance is pretty mediocre because survivors have learned to spread on gens. So it mostly won't activate until the last gen. But for that you don't need the perk anymore because you have a pretty good idea what gen they are working on anyway.
Tinkerer was nerfed and is now a better undetectable perk than it is an info perk. You mostly don't need that information because you already know what gens are worked on and with it only working once per gen, the synergy with Pop was limited severely, so that's even less of a reason to use it.
Blood Warden is never used for the info aspect either. If you can't activate the main effect, which is pretty hard because gates are kept at 99%, then you don't get anything out of that information. You come closer, they teabag you for a second and then leave. I can do that without giving up a perk slot for Blood Warden.
Infectious Fright only works as a slugging tool. This has 2 major downsides:
- 1) You have to slug, so you need a killer with a decent chase power to make this perk shine.
- 2) In order for Infectious Fright to do something you already have to find a survivor and down them.
This means, that whenever you actually struggle finding survivors, this perk won't help you.
BBQ suffers from point 2 as well but because it provides information exactly when you want it (right after hooking), I still like it.
It's pretty hard to design a useful info perk that has some sort of requirement and doesn't require you to already have found a survivor. You mostly need information, whenever you struggle finding anyone. So this kind of defeats the purpose.
With that out of the way: I agree that Distortion was overnerfed. The problematic thing about Distortion was that the "rat playstyle" as you call it existed, which entailed that Distortion survivors could avoid getting found altogether by just doing gens and hiding whenever the killer came near. The killer wouldn't have the time to go around looking for them and even then there is a good chance they wouldn't find that survivor still. That also came as an issue to mostly solo queue players because anyone who didn't have Distortion would be found more often and eliminated earlier. If the killer can't find 1-2 survivors then that's 2-4 less hook stages before someone dies.
For that reason I think Distortion should have 4 stacks but only recharge when getting hooked. This would avoid that problem altogether.
Thank you Xernoton, you have given me to things to talk about, 1st is the perks I mentioned earlier and then the thoughts about your Distortion take.
1st The perks I mentioned earlier, I can go in more depth about them now since you brought them up. I would like to say that all the Perks I was talking about was Old Dead by Daylight and probably around the Chapter 15: Chains of Hate released on March 10th 2020. It came with Gearhead which at the time gave Aura Reading to Survivor doing gens who hit Good Skill Checks. Before this Killers had the Perks I mentioned before and while there weren’t that great and considered bad at the time they were still tracking perks in some way shape or form. Yes you could see moving crows, Scratch Marks, Pools of Blood, hear Survivors breathing and footsteps and sounds of pain, but Blood Hound, Stridor, Whispers, Spies from the Shadows, and old Predator boosted all them thus making it easier but nobody complained as in it still took effort and skill on the Killers and Survivors part. Now Perks like BBQ, Nurses Calling, and Blood Warden, Survivors could tell about BBQ if they were smart so they could counter it. If they were healing and the Killer could find them as if he/she knew they were there and only when healing, they could counter it. Blood Warden til this day Survivors still stay in the Exit Gate so even though most should know their Aura is being read, they still stay in Exit Gate? I’m guessing it’s because it’s not only rare to see but even rarer to pull off. Discordance if the Killer keeps coming back to a gen you doing with someone then yeah you catch on and then counter it. Iron Maiden while not really a tracking perk it still does linger your location and if you heathy and exposed plus it lasted 30 seconds back then, yeah the Killer might come for you. And Tinkerer, I was referring to the Patch 2.1.0 Tinkerer now gives the Killer a noise notification if a Generator is repaired to 85 % and also reduces their Terror Radius to 0 metres for 8/10/12 seconds. While not being Aura based tracking it still provided gen tracking and activated multiple times helping you not only find Survivors but undo their progress, rinse and reuse, repeat. Survivors could counter it, but it was a hassle depending on Killer and teammates. Infectious Freight while good for slugging is still a good information Perk, but it could be countered by Survivors. Territorial Imperative is still a horrible Perk today as well in the past, but if Survivors went into Basement and Killer came down soon knowing exactly where they were… then yeah they knew the Killer had he perk and could counter it.
Fact that I’m saying that old DbD had Tracking and Aura Reading but the Survivors could counter them if they knew what was happening, not saying if they were good or bad but no one ever complained about the Perks and Distortion wasn’t over used to counter them.
2nd Your take on Distortion having 4 Tokens at the start of the Trail but only regaining a Token once hooked. So the Survivor could only gain 2 Tokens back max over the course of the match? Would they immediately gained the Token once hook or would it apply over time? Would they gain a Token immediately then gain a Token over time if the Killer was camping? If so I believe the Idea has some backbone, still a nerf though but hey how about this as an added feature, when the Survivor is rescued off hook, with an active Distortion, there is no noise cue for killer, silent unhook?
Thoughts?
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664772#Comment_3664772
So do you want the RBT to activation upon the Pig placing it on the Survivors head? or when the begin attempting the Jigsaw Box? (I don't believe that is a conspicuous action).
Yes and conspicuous actions are doing gens, healing and maybe opening chests.
I've heard the arguments that Survivor players should know the location of gen spawns, totems spawns, window vaults, pallet spawns, chest spawns, and even the exit gates locations. The Pig is a rare killer thus is even rarer if players remember her jigsaw boxes spawn locations. No aura reading on the boxes basekit or add-ons is very strong. It's a conflict of interest, I can't truly get behind it because without the aura reading survivors would struggle a lot. A beta test would be needed without aura reading and the timer staying at 150 then trails at 180, and maybe even trials at 210.
Yes they should test it. They could make it one of those negative trade addons, which adds 20-30s, but I don‘t think it should be more than 180s. Maybe the time increase isn‘t even needed, who knows?
To your idea:
I would like if the make Interlocking Razor and Razor Wires basekit. 5 traps also good.
I can‘t say why, but I don‘t want to have 6 boxes and up to 2-5 searches and 180s timer.
I know you mentioned putting the Jigsaw boxes back to how they were... it was still RNG the boxes now are not RNG it is a predetermined number. if you want me to explain that more in detail you can ask me :)
It wasn‘t really Rng, you just had to decide to run to the right box with the key and with a bit of luck you found it. Currently the pig can easily focus on you, when she knows the others removed their trap fast, which then says you have to search 3-4boxes and that can make it really difficult.
Searching a Chest isn't a conspicuous actions, and gens completing should be well enough to activate the RBTs, DS, BT and OTR would be trash against a tunneling pig.
You say 5 traps is good... but don't want the idea of 6 boxes... there has to be more boxes then traps... 2-5 searches is to give the RBT and the Boxes a actual slow down.
I don't really know what to think of this... "It wasn‘t really Rng, you just had to decide to run to the right box with the key and with a bit of luck you found it."
The whole point of me adding a 5th RBT was to put a lil more pressure for the traps, making the timer to 180 seconds was to accommodate the fact that I made it where the survivors had a chance to search up to 5 boxes. The 1st search was going to be a 100% fail rate so why no add additional time already knowing that from the jump. I prefer balanced buff or nerfs, (idk why everyone feels a long timer is always bad... a lot of things could happen before or after the timer starts.)
People think too much of a straight line when it comes to the timer of RBTs. What if you got the trap on and give up on gens and look for a box but then someone is hooked and you need to go for them, someone is slugged and you need to go for them, you're healing yourself, or healing someone else, or someone is healing you. What if the killer sees you and begins chase, what if you see a hex and need to cleanse it, what if its ruin, devour, blood favor, etc... All of this can happen with your trap active or non active. Everyone thinks the timer is a hard nerf but never think when they ever have a match play out the way they were expecting it to?
Honestly I will search 1 or 2 boxes and if it doesn't come off I will do a gen because I know that it come off either on the 3rd or 4th.
The boxes were complexly RNG back then, each survivors had a 1-4 chance of getting the trap of. meaning
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 1 = 1 - 4
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 2 = 1 - 4
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 3 = 1 - 4
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 4 = 1 - 4
Each survivor could possibly get the trap off on their 1st attempt or on their 4th attempt.
DbD's current version is this
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 1 = (1)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 2 = 1, (2)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 3 = 1, 2, (3)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 4 = 1, 2, 3, (4)
If the 1st attempt takes the survivor 4 tries then the 2 survivor has 1-3 chances to get their trap off. if the second gets their trap off on the 1st attempt then the 3rd survivor has to either get theirs off on the 2nd or 3rd attempt.
My version with 5 RBTs
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 1 = 1, (2)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 2 = 1, 2, (3)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 3 = 1, 2, 3, (4)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 4 = 1, 2, 3, 4, (5)
Survivor Reverse Bear Trap 5 = 1, (2), (3), (4), (5)
The Pig has two add-ons which could add 2 more RBTs, the attempts on those boxes would be the same as the 5th RBT. My version is a guaranteed slowdown and a buff to the Pigs RBT and Jigsaw boxes.
BHVR took away the RNG and made each box set with a RBT set with a predetermined of how many boxes the survivors had to search with no survivor having the search the same amount as the other. some would search more and some would search less.
Currently the pig can easily focus on you, when she knows the others removed their trap fast, which then says you have to search 3-4 boxes and that can make it really difficult.
The pig can do this playstyle in any version of her history as this is just a players playstyle.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664404#Comment_3664404
Hi, I did meantion the use of Gearhead with the skill checks at Jigsaw boxes.
I know, I just repeated and agreed with you.
Do you want the traps to be active while being carried by the killer?
I forgot that, sorry. I only meant, that the timer starts directly after attaching the trap or to the current activation added, that it starts after the first search of a box and through conspicuous actions.
So you are asking for Rule Set No. 2 to be basekit with the rework making the add-on - while the Reverse Bear Traps become active the auras of Jigsaw Boxes are hidden? (So you just want the survivors to not be able to see the Jigsaw boxes at all... the timer would have to be 180 and I would argue 210 depending on how the games went. No aura reading on the jigsaw boxes would be crazy lol) If you want to talk more about this I am ready :)
I don‘t think it would need to be increased, because the jigsaw boxes are very obvious, but I would be fine if they get more 20s to remove it with this addon(170s).
And I finally get what you mean about the Scream Nerf, its a balance for the interruptions and nerf to pig and a buff to survivors... more or less neither a buff or a nerf but a QoL change.
It is a small nerf to the regular gameplay, but it would solve the abuse of scream perks to make searching boxes not impossible.
I would like if they bring back the old boxes and how they worked. Back the there were 4 chests and in one of them was the key, instead of the current rng. Then they would need to solve the box camping situation and it would be fine (they could just make that the key switches the box of pig camps it and then the box gets highlighted).
I agree with your post, that it would be cool to reduce her terror radius back to what it was.
Hi...
So do you want the RBT to activation upon the Pig placing it on the Survivors head? or when the begin attempting the Jigsaw Box? (I don't believe that is a conspicuous action).
I've heard the arguments that Survivor players should know the location of gen spawns, totems spawns, window vaults, pallet spawns, chest spawns, and even the exit gates locations. The Pig is a rare killer thus is even rarer if players remember her jigsaw boxes spawn locations. No aura reading on the boxes basekit or add-ons is very strong. It's a conflict of interest, I can't truly get behind it because without the aura reading survivors would struggle a lot. A beta test would be needed without aura reading and the timer staying at 150 then trails at 180, and maybe even trials at 210.
My version of Pig the timer being 180 makes sense because the 1st jigsaw box is 100% a failed attempt, with the added penalty if missing skill checks while healthy or injured cost them a health state. (Deep Wound is a Health State)
Start’s the Trial with 5 Reverse Bear Traps in her inventory, which cannot be replenished.
The Trial also spawns 6 Jigsaw Boxes placed in random locations throughout the Trial Grounds.
1st Jigsaw Box is a guaranteed failed attempt while the 5th attempt will always be a guaranteed escape.
1. The 5th Reverse Bear Trap is not a predetermined number thus attempts 2 - 4 are random.
2. Any Reverse Bear Trap past the 4th usage will not be a predetermined number.
Active Reverse Bear Trap Timers are armed and on a Death Timer of 180 seconds.
The Add-ons “Interlocking Razor and Razor Wires” are now base kit into the Jigsaw Boxes; with the affects applying. While healthy, survivors failing a Skill Check at a Jigsaw Box become injured. While injured, Survivors failing a Skill Check at a Jigsaw Box become afflicted by the Deep Wound Status Effect.
I know you mentioned putting the Jigsaw boxes back to how they were... it was still RNG the boxes now are not RNG it is a predetermined number. if you want me to explain that more in detail you can ask me :)
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663629#Comment_3663629
Gearhead would also be cool to work with the boxes, but how should undone work with the boxes. It‘s a gen regression perk.
Personally I would prefer when the traps are always active (except of being slugged/hooked:chased) and activating it through conspicuous actions would just be a cool little extra or that it activates after the first search.
At the moment Rule set N.2 only hides the box auras, when the trap isn‘t active and I suggested, that it also works, when the trap is activated. It would also be cool if they make current rule set N.2 basekit and make it the other effect I suggested.
Scream nerf:
When leaving a box or being interrupted the box looses progress over time.
That is my idea to nerf the scream builds, which reset your progress completely. Instead of loosing all progress, it looses progress over time and a scream looses you only 2s for example.
Hi, I did meantion the use of Gearhead with the skill checks at Jigsaw boxes.
Do you want the traps to be active while being carried by the killer?
So you are asking for Rule Set No. 2 to be basekit with the rework making the add-on - while the Reverse Bear Traps become active the auras of Jigsaw Boxes are hidden? (So you just want the survivors to not be able to see the Jigsaw boxes at all... the timer would have to be 180 and I would argue 210 depending on how the games went. No aura reading on the jigsaw boxes would be crazy lol) If you want to talk more about this I am ready :)
And I finally get what you mean about the Scream Nerf, its a balance for the interruptions and nerf to pig and a buff to survivors... more or less neither a buff or a nerf but a QoL change.
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@jonifire said:
I like that they buffed her ambush/crouch, but her traps are her real power and her identity. Nerfing them makes her only a bad Chucky and the traps weren‘t even strong to beginn with.
They should change:
- Skill check perks should work with the boxes (huntress lullaby, unnerving presence)
- The timer should be reduced to 130s or 140s. Head pops are by far too rare and the traps are no threat at all
- Start the Timer through conspicuous actions
- Rule set number two hides the auras all the time
Scream nerf:
When leaving a box or being interrupted the box looses progress over time.
Hi Jonifire, thanks for your feedback.
The idea of Huntress Lullaby and Unnerving Presence affecting the skill check success zones for Jigsaw Boxes is very good idea and that alone would be a buff. (Jealous I didn't think of it) I would go as far as Gearhead and the new perk from The Unknown - Undone; all it would need is a change in text in mechanics "All actions that require use of a Skill Check (Good or Great)" that could buff all actions and killers that have use of Skill Checks in their powers or add-ons.
I feel the timer being at 150 is good for the current Pig and 180 with my version. 180 after the update is a hard nerf as the survivors will have a easier time finding the boxes while the pig cant see them herself.
The Timer only stops when either in chase, in the dying state, being carried to a hook, or being on the hook. I'm not sure where the conspicuous actions takes place. Enlighten me please
Rule Set No. 2 being basekit is not a bad idea, but no one has thought of a add-on rework to replace it... any ideas?
Scream nerf??
The progress resets when you stop and start again thus being hit or pulled out would reset the jigsaw boxes progress. Having it slowly loose progress overtime would be a nerf but a buff to survivors but honestly they would never get back to it in time to benefit from the buff.
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@ALGOL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/406681/the-pig-buff-i-felt-we-needed
I agree, her reverse bear traps need a rework after all the unnecessary changes. Honestly I think the entire community would just prefer version 1 of her back from when she first got added, her late game- gameplay was interesting and fun, and she's only a shadow of herself made a pathetic killer with a nearly useless (or at least underwhelming) power.
I love her character as a unique and fun killer but she's incredibly weak and as I go higher in my mmr she becomes unplayable, which is rather unfortunate
Hello, thanks for your feedback. To be honest I only know of The Pigs history from this Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN4mNqtv_IM But I think her late game gameplay was interesting like you said.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662798#Comment_3662798
Right but the amount of failed escape attempts is random unless you have a teammate save you, so it is in fact random deep wound they didn't choose to fail they randomly didn't succeed
Setup killers maintain a web of traps while trap based killers just throw them around willy nilly as its a side mechanic or something that doesn't really damage survivors on its own
I'm having trouble understanding why it is random, the survivor has a 1-5 chance that they may or may not escape but the 6th attempt in not a random action it is a guarantee. I do not wish to punish survivors if they free themselves before the 4th attempt so if they fail the 3rd attempt they enter deep wound. Yes they know if they don't succeed in the 1st 2 attempts then if they fail the 3rd then they enter deep wound. they can choose to try or wait for teammates.
I get what you are saying, their attempts at freeing themselves are a random between 1 - 5 with 6 being 100% but Deep wound is a guaranteed action on a failed 3rd attempt.
I think what you are saying is the Survivor gets no backlash from failing the 1st and 2nd and even freeing themself on the 3rd. While I did make an add-on that would hinder survivors when they free themselves you may want a more basekit ability. Lets look at what I got and see if we can figure something out.
Rare Add-on (Was an Uncommon Add-on)
Add-on “Lengthened Jaws” reworked - Survivors who escape from Bear Traps suffer from a -20% Hindered Status Effect for 10 seconds.
Okay now new idea
After failing a 3rd Escape Attempt Survivors will enter the Deep Wound Status Effect. (Don’t worry mending takes 12 seconds and attempts to escape are 1.8 seconds, even if they escape on the 6th attempt the survivor will still have 6 seconds to begin mending.) With each failed attempt a Hindered penalty will be applied at 2% per each failed attempt up to a maximum of 12% Hindrance for 10 seconds.
Rare Add-on (Was an Uncommon Add-on)
Add-on “Lengthened Jaws” reworked - Survivors who escape from Bear Traps suffer from the Broken Status Effect for 90 seconds.
How do you feel about these changes?
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@TWiXT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662787#Comment_3662787
They don't spawn with the traps, You still have to put traps on their heads (unless you use the other useless UR Pig add-on), but they don't activate on a survivor after they've been unhooked, and after activating there's no timer ticking down. If there are more than 1 survivor with an active RBT (meaning each one would've had to have been hooked once and saved once) when one dies with an active RBT, the RBT's kill the others.
Pros:
Potential to kill more than 1 survivor if you manage to sacrifice a survivor with an active RBT.
Jisgaw boxes take longer to search, and have slightly smaller success zones that feature no Great success zones.
Encourages team mates to protect each other until the RBT's are removed since one sacrifice could snowball on the others.
Tunneling 1 survivor doesn't work until you've applied and activated RBT's on 1 or more other survivors, which encourages the killer to get as many traps active as possible before going in for the kill.
Cons:
Because RBT's aren't activated until the survivors with them are unhooked, survivors can counter by leaving another with an inactive RBT on the hook buying them time to try and remove their RBT before unhooking their allies.
RBT's no longer feature a timer, nor do they activate via gens, so there's no gen slowdown due to getting a "friend hat" from the Pig. Meaning they could just rush gens, and only go after jigsaw boxes at mid to end game.
Pig has to fully sacrifice a survivor on a hook with an Active RBT in order to get any other active RBT's to trigger and kill other survivors, Mori's won't do it.
Jigsaw box RNG is still a thing, so it's still highly possible to get the RBT off your head with the second or third Jigsaw box searched.
Basically This has the potential to create a chain reaction of RBT deaths, but in practice, it'll likely only get 1 other survivor at most by the time someone dies with an active RBT, if that. Still, it puts a lot of pressure on survivors to try and get their active RBT off before unhooking someone whose RBT hasn't been activated yet, as well as help each other stay alive until all RBT's are disarmed. I thought this would be a far better alternative for the Ultra Rare add-on slot because it changes up the playstyle for both Pig and the survivors, much like how Hag's UR add-on trade teleports for high Movement speed, or Myers UR allows him to kill without hooking by making him take much longer to Tier up. I Believe that this add-on suggestion in practice will more likely be akin to Hex: Pentimento... sure it has the potential to dominate a match if all 5 totems are re-kindled, but that's so extremely rare to actually happen that Streamers made a "Challenge" out of it.
I've been suggesting these changes since 2019, and Despite the cons which I feel make the potential power of this add-on more balanced, and the fact that it would follow the Saw franchise lore surrounding Amanda (Pig) better, I got slammed with a slew of comments from survivors saying they would DC in droves against Pig if the idea were implemented, and the only thing anyone agreed on was that "Rules set No.2" should be base kit. I believe that the reason they shot it down so harshly is simply because they didn't understand that I had balance in mind when coming up with it, which is why I took the liberty of spelling it out this time around.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662684#Comment_3662684
Case and point! Pulsar doesn't understand that you need to Apply multiple RBT's, they need to be activated by teammate's unhooking, and THEN you have to actually manage to sacrifice one of the teammates WITH an Active RBT in order to get the chain reaction of kills. In other words, There's no point in tunneling anyone if you don't have active RBT's on any of the other survivors, and even then, there's no timer on them, so the only time based condition is: How many survivors can remove their RBT's vs. How quickly the killer can get multiple RBT's placed, Activated, and Sacrifice one of them to trigger the chain reaction.
This isn't Billy, Bubba, Ghost-Face, Blight, etc, Killers with high mobility and one shot-downs... this is Pig we're talking about. No insta-down capability, a special attack that's highly telegraphed, a game slowdown mechanic and otherwise your standard m1 killer. I figured a Playstyle altering add-on with high setup and the potential for high reward would be a great change of pace for Pig.
Rules set no.2 also doesn't do anything significant enough to kill new players, especially with the upcoming 3 min timer change. There's no reason it shouldn't be base kit at this point.
Alrighty, I have to admit I wasn't expecting a response like this :) this is my kind of energy. So lets get into it, this idea you have is on a whole different level and for that very reason it cannot be a simple add-on (no matter the rarity) What you are describing is a complete rework of the pigs power and while nothing is wrong with that you would have to go over all the current add-on and either rework or balance them around your idea. I'm sorry you had backlash for your ideas, the slew of comments you mentioned. I don't feel this would be a bad idea, it could possibly make it as a add-on but you would have to figure out one major detail. Is the pig buffed from BHVR or by my version, because just adding your add-on with the pig in her current version. She lacks the chase nor the RBT and Jigsaw strength to get quicker down to make your add-on strong on its own.
Also Rules Set No.2... if you want that basekit then that is fine, but you have to rework the add-on to do something else, any ideas?
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@Cheque0826 said:
They seem like good changes to me, but don't you think that the Trapper deserves to start with all his traps and be able to collect them after placing them instead of having to go all over the map collecting them and arranging them where they serve him? Even considering that he can no longer infinitely damage an engine in a 3-gen situation, which was basically his normal gameplay. In addition, the accessory that damages survivors who deactivate their traps should be basic (including the Deep Wound), since if not you are going to have someone deactivating every trap you set just for fun. Instead, they should give him an iridescent accessory more in line with the current environment, as it considerably damages the more advanced generator.
Hello, thank you for your feedback. The Thought of Trapper carrying 10 Bear Traps basekit would more than likely ruin his unique game style. With the patches 7.3.0 and 7.3.1 setting a Bear Trap now applies a 7.5 % Haste Status Effect for 5 seconds; and Bear Traps now spawn closer to Generators in general, allowing The Trapper to collect them without having to stray too far from usual patrol routes. Trapper can move quicker after setting a trap, using the speed to help in patrolling gens and it helps him finds the random Bear Traps that spawn near gens. He can either collect or set trap and gain the speed thus continuing the cycle until he has a more controlled area.
Your questions on my add-on Bloody Stoned Coil being basekit but without the 30 second reset and arming disarmed bear traps; Could be too strong as a basekit buff
Ultra-Rare Add-on (Was 2 separate Ultra Rare Add-ons; “Iridescent Stone” and “Bloody Coil”)
Add-on “Bloody Stoned Coil” reworked - Added Iridescent Stone and Bloody Coil, together - When a healthy Survivor disarms a Bear Trap the Blood Coil exacts its price, putting the Survivor into the Injured State. When an Injured Survivor disarms a Bear Trap the Blood Coil exacts its price, putting the Injured Survivor into Deep Wound. Every 30 seconds a random chosen disarmed Bear Trap in the Trial is automatically reset and armed.
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@bjorksnas said:
Still missing some parts of those buffs and nerfs, the trap escape chance was decreased from 25% to 16.66% but automatically succeeded after 6 attempts because you could very easily escape on your first attempt or take 20 to get out of the trap.
Now about those buffs
Increased setting speed is good
Deep wound at random isn't very engaging half the time you are in a trap you get deep wound and the other half you don't, not fun to flip a coin on deep wound, maybe make it something consistent like freeing yourself gives deep wound or if injured being trapped gives you deep wound to give trapper some more cross map value
more traps in hand no problem
Idk about the addon buffs since its a bit of a wall of text but they seem ok
A gameplay mechanic where a setup killer gets indetectable, 50% gen speed penalty, and their traps can't be disarmed is a huge buff to give and 90s can be a very long time in a match to setup and then some. I think one of the main gimicks with trapper and hag being setup is that while they might lose gens that decreases the size of the play area / area where they will patrol and trap so that their traps per area increases so taking that away doesn't work well with them since you now always have 7 gens in your web instead of 6 or 5
Hello, thanks for your feedback, I didn't put the info on the % to % decrease in escape attempts because the 6th attempt was a guarantee escape anyway. The Deep Wound isn't random it would apply at the end of the 3rd failed attempt, not punishing the survivor who frees themself before 4th attempt but failing a attempt 4 or 5 times and even escaping on the 6th. The Survivors got some injuries after all that failing. Your idea on the "setup killers" or "trap based killers" or a is interesting, but you would have to define what is a trap based killer or setup killer. Trapper, Hag, Pig... Skull Merchant, Singularity... Demogorgon, Freddy.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I think this belongs in Feedback and Suggestions: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/categories/suggestions
I do appreciate you taking the effort to include the history of his buffs and nerfs. You seemed to miss one of his biggest buffs which is a movement speed boost after setting a trap. The thing I would like to see with trapper and hag for that matter is a 90 second debuff toward generator repair speed, traps can't be disarmed and undetectable that ends after a survivor is injured by basic attacks or being picked up by Trapper. Something like 50% penalty to repair speed. This is just so he can have a little bit of time to walk around setting up traps before gens are blasted out. It's not like there is no counter play to this by survivors. They can try to follow him around and try to body block or bait a hit in. But if they are doing that, at least they aren't smashing gens.
Hi, thanks for your feedback, the reason i didn't include the speed buff was because I didn't think of a version myself. All the history I recapped was to let others know the reasons and understanding of my Buffs or reworks. As for the idea of the debuffs for survivors who trigger or disarm Trapper and Hags traps... I'd be interested in hearing more about you views, could possibly thing or more for other killers.
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@TWiXT said:
After all these years, I'm still saying Make the Rules Set No.2 (hides Jigsaw box auras for survivors until their RBT is activated) part of her base kit, Make Amanda's Letter Take current Rules Set No. 2's place in rarity (It doesn't really feel powerful enough to be an Ultra Rare), and replace it entirely with:
Heart Monitor Trigger (UR):
A modification to the Reverse Bear Traps Trigger Mechanism:
Reverse Bear Traps now activate without a timer when a survivor with one is unhooked. If a survivor with an Active Reverse Bear Trap is Sacrificed, all other active Reverse Bear Traps are Triggered.
Increases Jigsaw Box Search time by 8 seconds
Increases Jigsaw Box Skill check Difficulty by 25%
Removes Great Skill Check Success zones from Jigsaw boxes.
"You are not a good listener. I think you missed the part that if he dies, you die." - Amanda Young
Hello, thank you for your feedback. Okay so what you are saying is this Add-on spawns the survivors with the Bear Traps and they only activate either after unhooking or if one dies then they all activate. The idea is there but it might be too strong as the tunneling aspect with definitely arise. Its a start, run more ideas by me if you like :)
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My 1st ever comment :)