WolfgangGarou
WolfgangGarou
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I said it a year ago and I'm happy to repeat it: the most efficient way to prevent tunnelling is to give the survivors a disadvantage that ends with the first death/elimination.
So as long as there are still 4 survivors left, there is a 15-20% penalty on the repair speed. If the killer quickly tunnels one out, the penalty is removed and the survivors can repair the generators at normal speed (which is currently about 34 seconds per generator for a solo survivor with the right combination of perks).
Since the killer decides when the first survivor is out, they have control over when the handbrake on the generators is released and have a real incentive to distribute the hooks.
...and that the ranking of kills to hooks and escape to usefulness (as it used to be with pips) should be changed is something we don't need to discuss. This system had its teething problems, but the bottom line is that it was much healthier for the game than the current ‘kills equals skills’ and ‘only those who escape have won and were good’ mentality.
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First things first: I haven't been able to try that out yet, but maybe one of you knows the answer.
With the new anti-tunnelling mechanic... what actually happens in the following scenario:Killer hooks Survivor A.
Killer goes off and unsuccessfully hunts Survivor B, C and D without getting another hook.
The Survivors ignore the hooked Survivor A until he die on the hook.According to my understanding of the new rules, this means that a Survivor died before the required 6 hooks were reached, and the Killer is now not allowed to damage or otherwise reset generators as punishment for his tunnel kill. ...which is pretty much a guaranteed loss.
Is that correct?
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@Sinndica said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896477#Comment_3896477
I get what you're saying but you also can't forget literally borderline everyone uses aura reading perks as killer and with the new quality of life changes that BHVR is adding, people like Claudette's are gonna get punished if all they do is hide and sneak around the map. So in my mind regardless if they add more fog or not, you're gonna still be able to find people regardless of what they wear cosmetically, especially if you're running aura reading perks.
The problem with this view is that aura-reading perks are no longer just a common thing, but suddenly become a necessity without which the killer can already be cancelled out by a basegame skin. Massively worsening the visibility conditions mainly benefits those seeking cover - and only in a few cases are these the killers.
Then we again have the imbalance of 4 vs. 12 perks per team, which doesn't get any better if the side with 4 perks can effectively only choose 2-3 perks freely, because otherwise they are at a massive disadvantage from the start because they can no longer find the opposing side.
I'm sorry to say it now, but the days when killers were mainly scarejumps or sneaky are long gone. The game specialises in chases, and it's not uncommon for Survivor players to flat-out quit a round when they realise they're going up against a Ghostface.
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In the early years of DbD, this darkness that you want here still existed. The problem: there are Survivor skins that are also very dark and when those are chosen (Claudette - I'm looking at you), you can literally walk into the Survivor and you don't realise he's there as a killer.
That, along with the fog addons, was a real problem as it wasn't the Survivors having trouble orientating themselves and being constantly jumpedscared by the Killer, it was the Killers just not finding the Survivors anymore. It was such a big problem that there were numerous SWF groups that kept bringing in the strongest of these add-ons so that they had an easier game, as they could coordinate their actions perfectly while the Killer was literally stumbling around helplessly in the dark and fog.
I understand your desire for more horror, but you can't achieve that by giving the survivors visual cover.
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The perk idea itself sounds good, but I would use it as a separate perk rather than as a replacement for NOED.
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"the killers will learn to play the game the way it was intended"
Which way may this gonna be ? If you have to chase one Survivor across the map for 30-40 seconds without slugging or another way to slow them down, you will loose as a killer because of all the 2. chance perks, which prevents you from hooking the survivor and are standard in most survivor perk choices.
I am on board too for a surrender option, but this statement, that killers don't play the game in the "right way" if they use a legal stategy is pure hybris in my opinion.
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Your suggestion has the opposite effect. If the killer gets less of a view when he leaves the hook, he will stay in sight of the hook and therefore closer to it should a rescue attempt be made.
Killers already have less information in the UI than Survivors. Tinkering with this will mean that they will have to fulfil their need for information directly through line of sight observation.
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@piplup55 said:
God forbid you want to try a fun healing/looping build! Second chance perks are strong for a reason, but not everybody wants to bring OTR, DS, Unbreakable every match. Do you know how to avoid these perks, tho? I'll tell you… Do not tunnel. If you weren't able to apply enough pressure it's on you (but do not take it personally cause there's also huge map balancing issues and gens can also fly if you get too distracted, just try a custom match with 4 perkless bots, but those issues are a whole different world).
And do you know how you will be able to avoid the anti-tunnel feature? By not tunneling.
And if a killer does without tunnelling, everyone complains again because he then slugs. ^^
The fact is and remains that a killer plays against four survivors at the same time, three of whom are sitting at the generator while he chases one across the map.
The Survivor rather than the Killer determines where the hunt goes, as he has the choice of all options, while the Killer mainly runs after him.In plain language: if the Survivor being hunted doesn't mess up, the other three will be able to carry out the repairs in peace for quite a while.
This in turn ensures that the killer has to come up with something if he wants to build up enough pressure to have a realistic chance of winning the game.There are several possibilities: slugging or throwing a survivor out of the match for good before the generators are too far advanced. So: tunnelling.
So if you say that he ‘just don't tunnel’, I'd like a counter-suggestion of what he should do that doesn't lead to ‘just don't slugging’ and yet goes beyond a vague ‘then just get better’. Why don't you describe a strategy that works? :-)
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The surrender option is effectively nothing more than a group of friends playing cards (be it poker, skat, or something else) and they've all counted in their heads which cards are out, what can still be in, what the points are, and then two rounds before the end they shrug their shoulders, put their cards on the table and say: ‘Okay, the round is over, no matter what we play now, we can't win it anyway’.
And they are often right. There is no reason to play a match that has already been played to the end when it is clear that it is over. The argument: ‘But it could still get better and you can still turn the tide’ is no longer valid from a certain point onwards and from then on it's just a waste of time to force it to continue. And that applies to both sides.
Should you then force both sides to continue playing? No. Should they be deprived of the ‘reward’ of the round if they want to cut it short to get to the next round? Again, no.
I would therefore say that the surrender option is definitely a positive thing. -
@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884915#Comment_3884915
Then I'd miss out on the cosmetics and rift shards.
Let me get your point across: because you want to get the rewards that are exclusive to 2v8 games, but at the same time don't want to bother with the game itself, should everyone who likes the mode now do without it?
You know what? I would also like to have all the unlockable killers, perks, skins, etc., but I don't feel like playing with other players. Can I join you and get these things by playing against the bots? Or maybe without playing at all?
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Or you can have a chat before the start of the match so that the teams can talk to each other not only after (and therefore at the time when emotions are boiling over and insults are more likely) but also before the round. In other words, at the time when people are still greeting each other, wishing each other a good game and not yet hating each other.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881157#Comment_3881157
Logical reasoning alone isn’t enough to prove a claim like this—especially one that involves a complex, variable system like a multiplayer game. Just because something seems true based on anecdotal experience doesn’t mean it holds up under scrutiny. Empirical data would be able to demonstrate the scope and size of the problem, we don't have that, so merely the potential that this could happen isn't enough to cause alarm.
Your core claim—that an advantage exists and can be exploited—is likely true, but the argument overstates its universality and significance without strong supporting data. It dismisses counterexamples too easily and assumes that isolated cases prove a broader systemic effect. To make the argument stronger, it would need statistical data on win rates, coordination effects, and how often the advantage meaningfully impacts the game.
That being said BHVR, We would love to see that SoloQ against SWF over MMR.
Let me get your point straight - you're saying that my statement that the ability to coordinate can be there and can make a significant difference. But at the same time it is irrelevant because there is no evidence that SWF teams would use this advantage to make the game easier for themselves. And in the absence of this evidence, there is no reason to assume that the game is sufficiently difficult for the killer side that one could say that the game is sufficiently difficult here (beyond isolated, anecdotal experiences) that it can be assumed that killer players would be deterred from playing by this thing.
Correct?
With respect, if you're asking for this amount of evidence from statistics (and I have my doubts as to whether BHVR themselves could recognise this because their statistics don't note match progression and the effects of third-party software on progression, only results and participants), then you can literally dismiss anything that anyone can put forward on the subject as being without merit.It's just another way of bluntly shutting your dialogue partner up by accusing them of not having enough knowledge and therefore not being allowed to take a position in the conversation because they can't make an objective statement.
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Post deleted because the forum save here still displayed the original post more than an hour later. I love it when forums have a holding pattern as to when they show posts and leave me guessing as to whether they have taken the post or I can re-post it. -.-
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880776#Comment_3880776
If that was true and happened in all SWFs, then all stealth Killers would have a visible disadvantage against SWF in the stats.
But it doesn't happen in all SWF, now does it?
It doesn't need to be in 100% of matches to be considered a visible advantage - after all, some rounds of SWF can actually play quite chilled out and not give a damn about winning as long as everyone is having fun. It just needs to be a recognisable advantage that can be exploited if desired.
And that's exactly the case. So the fact that it doesn't occur in all rounds is more an indication of the existence of statistical outliers rather than that this advantage doesn't exist. To prove the significant advantage, it is sufficient that there are rounds that run like this and that cannot be explained otherwise.
And since there are these rounds happen... quod erat demonstrandum.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880336#Comment_3880336
I tried posting my ideas on SWF balancing giving Solo players the same tools SWFS have and Killers will toddler temper tantrum it would give unfair advs to survivors. My response was then it would be fair for all players and players like Trutalent toddler temper tantrum even more.
If you want to give the solos the same possibilities as the SWFs, you can orientate yourself directly on VHS. There, the teens (in DbD the survivors) were shown directly where their team members were located by giving the map or the areas of the map names and then the name of the area was next to the team member in the UI.
The result was a bullysimulator where the monster players (killers) simply refused to go into the rounds because they were so outclassed.
This has nothing to do with baby tantrum - it was simply no longer festive what the monsters regularly received in terms of thrashing. Accordingly, the game is dead today.
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Communication is a strong advantage in multiplayer games and to pretend that it isn't and that the killers are just acting like toddlers when they don't want to put up with it completely ignores this point.
My approach here was that a real disadvantage that completely takes the fun out for one of two sides and stresses them out in a way that can seriously ruin the motivation to play the game needs to be compensated for somehow if DbD is not to constantly lose players.
Since you can't balance the game around the SWFs without creating a really hard imbalance for the many solo players, it just makes sense not to try, but to focus on the solos.
Because the advantage of the SWF comes from the use of secondary software (Discord or similar), which DbD cannot influence, this cannot be compensated for.Hence my suggestion: compensate the killers with more blood points so that their suffering is at least compensated by a consolation and there is a small reward that restores the motivation to continue playing the game.
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That is precisely the problem. But if you try to balance the game around the SWF, you will unfairly penalise the solo survivors.
Hence my suggestion to focus the balancing on the solos and simply compensate the killer for the round with the totally broken balance afterwards. Just a consolation, sure, but much better than nothing.
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@sirlemonhead said:
Can I get extra BP if the killer slugs and humps me?
Slugging is a valid strategy. You could also ask whether you get extra BP if the killer hits you or puts you on the hook. It's just as nonsensical.
@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
SWF team ie premade teams are not always comp sweaty players. There are many players who just HAD IT with players who off themselves or do nothing the ENTIRE match and want to have fun. I been playing solo and I can tell you there is a certain amount of rage when both happens because I can't quit without punishment, and I have no hope to win besides a pity win.
SWF teams have a real advantage - and it's called communication. The fact that they can communicate with each other makes them more challenging (and therefore more stressful) even when they're not playing sweaty. Killer players are more willing to take on the challenge anyway instead of quitting in frustration or not touching the game at all or only playing with bots if they get something in return.
And let's be honest: whether the killer player ends up with a few more blood points or not doesn't really matter to anyone else, does it?@Lixadonna said:
You're basically asking for an indication of a SWF. That would just lead to cherry picking. Without knowing of the BP bonus it would be like now. You're still going to stress.
I wouldn't say I'm asking for a SWF indicator here. The system knows whether a group enters the game as SWF and then simply adds the template on top for further calculation.
The killer can't influence this any more than any random survivors can influence whether the survivors are added to the list of match seekers as SWF or not. A targeted search for such matches therefore makes no sense.
And the difference to now would be that we would no longer have to worry about the SWF teams when it comes to balancing. We could focus the balancing directly on the solos and that would be that.
The role of the killer will always be stressful because it is a tight one and he can't afford to make any mistakes. But playing against a SWF group is even tougher and there is often the added aspect of humiliation if they are so excellently attuned to each other that they effectively leave him no real chance. ...which is unfortunately the rule when you have enthusiastic players, who are outnumbered and highly experienced, facing a single opponent and want to have fun together by dominating him.
I don't blame anyone for wanting to win, but that's just how a developing group dynamic works. You don't deliberately make mistakes just so that your opponent can have fun playing when you can just as easily win and have fun highlights with your friends by repeatedly saving them by a narrow margin or denying your opponent a point. -
@Langweilig said:
Hexes
- Hexes look like dull totems for the first 30 seconds in the trial (new)
- Hexes are dull until their effects are triggered by survivors (new)
Hex: Haunted ground
- 2-3 (was 2) Hex totems will spawn in the trial.
- When (was either one of the 2-3)a Hex totems is cleansed by a survivor, all survivors suffer from the exposed status effect for 60s.
The remaining trapped Hex totem immediately becomes a Dull Totem(removed)
Hex: Corrupt intervention (now a hex)
- At the start of the trial two hex totems spawn and the furthest 3 generators get blocked by the entity (was for 120s). When one hex corrupt intervention gets cleansed, the other one becomes a dull totem and the perk deactivates. Both hex totems are blocked for the first 60 seconds into the trial.
- Removes the antennas from generators at the start of the trial. (New)
Hex: Ruin
- All generators are affected by hex: ruin. While a generator is not being repaired by a survivor, it will immediately and automatically regress repair progress at 150% (was 100%) of the normal regression speed.
Hex: Shadowborn (rework)
- Everything becomes darker for survivors and the fog is very close for them. The killer sees everything like normal.
Hex: Thrill of the Hunt
- For each Totem remaining in the environment, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt is granted 1 Token. For each Token, all Survivors suffer from a stack-able 10/11/12 %. Action Speed penalty to Cleansing and Blessing Totems.
- For each dull totem all survivors suffer from a 3% repair, healing, vault and sabotage speed penalty. (new)
Hex: Undying (revert with some adjustments)
- While Hex: Undying is active, Survivors within 2 metres of any Totem have their Aura revealed for 4/5/6 seconds.
- When another Hex Totem is cleansed, that Hex transfers to an available Dull Totem, losing 2 (was any) Tokens in the process. The same hex perk can only be transferred twice (new).
- Adds 3 more dull totems to the trial. (new)
Hex: Retribution (no longer a hex)- Survivors (was cleansing or blessing) in a 4-6m radius of any Totem, suffer from the Oblivious Status Effect. That effect lingers for 35/40/45 seconds.
- After cleansing or blessing a Hex Totem the Auras of all Survivors are revealed to you for 15 seconds.
Hex: Two can play (no longer a hex)Anytime you are stunned or blinded by any Survivor a total of 4/3/2times, and if there is not yet a Hex Totem already associated with Hex: Two Can Play and there is at least one DullTotemremaining in the Trial Grounds, Hex: Two Can Play activates on a random Totem: (removed)- Survivors who stun or blind you are blinded for 3,5s (was 1.5s). This does not affect carried survivors.
What do you think of those changes?
I copied those perk changes from one of my older discussion, where nobody replied, because it was too long. Therefore I plan on splitting it up into new discussion.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/435966/perk-buffs-version-2-killers
I like the general idea of hex totems that only become visible as hex totems after 30 seconds.
If you only have a chance to identify them as such after 30 seconds in the match, this solves the problem that a survivor spawns near a glowing totem at the beginning, cleans it and a few seconds after the match starts, the killer has already lost 25% of his perks without having the chance to physically stop it.
This means that a Suvivor has to decide in the initial phase whether he wants to take the time to destroy a (possibly dull totem) in order to possibly render a perk of the killer useless, or whether he would rather leave his spawn location before the killer appears there to investigate the nearby generators.
As for the rest of the changes, I find them a bit too strong in places, but I can't really judge them, as I rarely play with hex perks myself (as they are always put away too quickly, while I'm constantly kicking out boone totems that are activated again and again -.-).
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879736#Comment_3879736
I definitely would lol it is just the pure truth. Although behaviour does not acknowledge most complaints sadly
Its in now as a new Post in Feedback and Suggestions. ^^
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879563#Comment_3879563
NOW THAT seems like a good thing to add because I am indeed tired to play against survivor friends and get no conpensation for it. Only insults for refusing to participate in their little game in the end game chat. It is fascinating how they think they are so good and rightous meanwhile they use map offering they are prestige 100 and they got all second chance perks and ultra rare add ons and then they complain why I gave up. Who wants to play against this ######### for no actual reason? Nobody is the answer especially without any reward.
If you promise to repeat this passionate statement again, I'll make it a separate post in the Suggestions. Maybe more people will think it's a good idea and it will be easier to see there, so that it has a better chance of being accepted by BHVR.
The way it is here at the moment, it could easily go under, unless by some chance a BHVR employee reads the whole thing seriously.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879411#Comment_3879411
Nice again we gotta balance the game around survivor friends because they ruin everything everywhere. Very nice indeed. I guess we will never have the freedom from swf squads. Which sucks honestly.
If we wanted to remove the SWF teams from the balancing considerations, I would suggest significantly increasing the blood points for a game against a SWF. And I'm talking about factor here, not total. So 50% more BP per SWF member in the survivor team. So with 3 people entering the game as SWF (which the game knows because it requires a separate entry and is not a random entry) that would be a total of 250% BP (100% normal plus 3 times 50% on top), with a minimum of 200% if there are only two SWF players in the round.
This makes the stress you have with them worthwhile for the killer and at least compensates him for the beating he will inevitably receive.
We then balance the game around the solos and thus have an equaliser that everyone can enjoy.
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You would still consider Boones too weak if they were mapwide ?
I honestly think it's a pretty good buff, even if you limit the use of it. Even the hard limit from tokens would be less of an issue when you consider that totems spawn mostly on the edge of the map, so the killer has to leave the main hunt zone and actively search for them if he wants to take them out of play. And that is a loss of time that would cost him the game. Not can - would.
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I seem to remember that they were generated because a few well-placed bone totems, together with a few cheaply spawned totems, could practically cover the entire played map. Which then created too much of a power imbalance between the teams, especially since bone totems can be reignited and hex totems are lost for good as soon as they are cleared.
My suggestion to fix this would be to extend the range, but after the killer has cleared the corresponding totem, the perk becomes just as inactive for the rest of the match as a hex totem.
The corresponding survivor must therefore think carefully about when and where to place the bone totem, but can also be sure that it will be relevant.And before someone comes up with the argument that hex totems take much longer to be cancelled than bone totems - in theory, the same totem can be created four times in a four-man team if everyone invests a perk slot for it. That makes up for a lot.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876099#Comment_3876099
The large terror radius is intended to warn the survivor before the killer is close enough to strike
The huge terror radius wesker has, does the exact opposite. It tells survivors Wesker is somewhere, but you never really now how close he is. Having a permanent terror radius on smaller maps only archives a pseudo stealth.
The hit always fails when she teleports in and strikes immediately.
Then you should probably not do that! Just follow them for a short moment and hit them. It’s not that hard.
‘The huge terror radius Wesker has, does the exact opposite. It tells survivors Wesker is somewhere, but you never really now how close he is. Having a permanent terror radius on smaller maps only archives a pseudo stealth.’
That's exactly why Wesker likes to take Distressing with him. Are you sure your killer didn't have that in his pack? Normally, Wesker's larger terror radius is only really a problem because you adapt and adjust to the normal one relatively quickly.
‘Then you should probably not do that! Just follow them for a short moment and hit them. It's not that hard.’
Do you play the Hag from time to time? The ‘Just’ in ‘Just follow them’ is something that has to be decided in a split second. Otherwise, the target is often gone.The Hag's glyphs are not usually used in the open, but at special, critical points, such as windows, palettes, etc. If you take your time after teleporting to check whether you should have struck immediately or run after it first, the target is already safe and you are standing in front of the actually blocked obstacle looking stupid.
Therefore - and I don't mean this in any way disrespectfully - your advice should be categorised as ‘suboptimal because it's unrealistic’.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875818#Comment_3875818
If I am being honest I am not sure why Wesker has a terror radius of 40+ meters but blight doesnt.
You don’t want blight to have a 40 m terror radius! It is already annoying enough to play against Wesker on small maps with permanent terror radius.
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875675#Comment_3875675
Why would you give her a speed boost after teleporting? Her trap teleport is already a free hit and almost unavoidable.
I think the best buff hag could get is returning lightburn, so survivors can’t remove traps by swiping anymore.
‘Why would you give her a speed boost after teleporting? Her trap teleport is already a free hit and almost unavoidable.’
Unless the survivors hold down Shift and W at the same time. This easily takes them out of range of the teleporting Hag.
There are currently two counters against Hag: wiping away the glyphs and simply running through at the edge of the teleportation circle (i.e. about 2 metres away from the glyph). The hit always fails when she teleports in and strikes immediately.
‘You don't want blight to have a 40 m terror radius! It is already annoying enough to play against Wesker on small maps with permanent terror radius.’
The large terror radius is intended to warn the survivor before the killer is close enough to strike. And since Blight and Wesker are both pretty fast, it's necessary, otherwise they'll be breathing down your neck before you realise it.
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@Samura1Jack said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875247#Comment_3875247
- If making 1 of 4 perk slots into that, it will have less freedom to both sides build, especially for survivors. The idea is to make each survivor have a power like when playing killer.
- Even if we make that rule ourselves, how many people will follow it when they can use 4 meta perks that doesn't even belong to the either sides character playing?
- If this somehow miraculously comes real, you'll see some specific characters stack which I feel iffy about it.
Re 1: Currently the Survivor team has 16 total perks in the game and the Killer team has 4. A 5th slot would be a ratio of 20 to 4, so I don't see how that would be a disadvantage for the Survivor team.
Regarding 2: My thought was not that the survivors do this voluntarily with the one character slot, but that the allocation criteria on the part of the game are that 3 slots can be freely allocated and one slot only has the three perks of the individual character to choose from. However, these could of course be a little stronger than before so that they become more important, as a good deal of versatility is lost here.
Although, of course, it has to be considered how much stronger they are, as the balancing of some perks is quickly ruined here. -
Quick question: why a 5th slot? Can't one of the four be made into the ‘character’ slot?
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Just to be clear from the start and to make my bias on this matter transparent: I am a mainkiller player - and would honestly agree with the original suggestion of 60 sec Unbreakable basekit.
The reason you slug a survivor is not because you want to spoil someone else's fun, but because it prevents the survivor team from making the generators. They have to send at least one member of their team to help their downed comrades get back on their feet. This takes time - and during this time the downed player is not able to sit down at a generator and repair it. Grabbing him by the hook is ineffective because there are currently a lot of perks and mechanics/counter-strategies that make it very difficult to hook the downed player without him or another survivor being able to prevent this instantly and stun the killer for several seconds.
...which costs momentum and, given the tight schedule that the killer has to follow in order to exert sufficient pressure so as not to lose the game, often leads to certain defeat after the second such incident. And yes, I'm looking at you, DS.60 seconds is a good amount of time so that the team members feel sufficiently motivated to put their own actions on hold to help the downed player, because otherwise he will be out for so long and they will be facing the killer alone (which fulfils the reason for the slug), but not so long that the player has no realistic chance of participating in the match again.
Less time, such as 30 or 40 seconds, would be less effective because it would bring him back into the game too early and encourage him to simply stay in the area and chase him down again immediately after jumping up. He would effectively be back on the ground in the long term and the other players would be able to do the generators in peace, but effectively it would be boring for them as they wouldn't get any chases.
However, I would also be open to CursedPerson's suggestion (‘Simple fix if there is only 1 survivor left standing the others(or the first downed) can pick themselves up. This doesnt remove slugging for pressure while it gets rid of both slugging for 4k to drag out the match and malicious 4man slugging") because it is still a fair way out that also makes sense of the Slugg strategy. -
Killers don't slug because they enjoy spoiling the fun of the game and seeing other players crawl around, but because it buys them some much-needed time to achieve their goal - to find other Survivors and stop them from repairing the Gens.
Simply because a slugging Survivor can't lie on the ground forever and has to be picked up by another Survivor in any case, so that two Survivors can't sit at some generator and repair it.Now you can rightly argue that the same can be achieved via the hooks, but if you now put the possibilities in direct comparison, the following becomes clear: both have to be chased and hit twice to go down.
When slugging, you can immediately go hunting again.
When hooking, you have to pick up the target (and are vulnerable to pallets or flashlights), bring the surv to the hook while he makes it more difficult by moving (which is especially difficult when using perks) and can be prevented by sabotaging the hook, whereby a freeing surv then drags things out further before it can be knocked down again.
And if DS or other things are added later on, this drags on even longer.The possibilities of the attempt to hook failing and the time it takes simply makes it unattractive. Especially for weaker killers.
This is why the tactic has recently become more popular. The ways of avoiding the hook that BHVR has built in work so well that it becomes easier for the killer to achieve his goal with slugging than with hooks.Especially as secondary objectives such as Hex Perks are only a minor distraction for the Survivor and can easily be done on the side, so that defending the Totem makes the Killer more vulnerable than hindering the Survivor when they want to achieve their actual goals. This secondary objective is currently at the Killer's expense, which puts him under additional pressure.
One way around this would be to fundamentally redefine the Killer's objective. So far, his success is measured in kills (which means that he has lost the round with 8 hooks and no kills, while he achieves a draw with 6 hooks and 2 kills). However, if hooks were the objective, it would be less tempting to slug the survivor, as bleeding out is not actually a hook.
The count would then be 3 dead survivors (normally a clear killer victory) with one that died from bleeding out: 6 hooks, 3 unachieved hooks, 3 lost hooks because of bleeding out. Overall: Draw because 6 out of 12 hooks achieved. -
To come back to your suggestions... :-)
NPC support is one of those things. Either you can let the computer take control (Nemesis and his brainless zombies) or you'd have to do it yourself, but then the paragon of fury and hunting zeal would be standing around in the area (Twins, Knight or Singularity). Neither seems to me to have a good mood, but that's more due to the limitations of the technology than to the thought of whether it wouldn't be an option to give the killer a unique selling point.
Regarding the slinging around - yes, I could well imagine that. Wesker and Demogorgon are quite close to each other, which is why I used them as an example for the chase power.
Howl, on the other hand. Let's be honest: it's part of it, but as a power it's rather negligible. In real wolves it is used for communication, in werewolves in the stories it is used as an element that is supposed to frighten and signal danger or as a sign of the triumph of evil. In the game, it would therefore be something that can sound at the beginning or after someone has dropped out of the game. Rather by a mori than by a hook or bleeding out.
I wouldn't take it as an effect-triggering power, because that just doesn't fit. Why should you see where a survivor is hiding after the howl?
The sniffing would be more suitable (which is why I had included this as a power in my original post), so that the wolf can pick up the scent of the prey.
What would be a use for the howl, however, would perhaps be that it irritates the survivors. As if they panic as the killer uses the power near them (10-12 metres away or so) and they would have a sort of ‘static’ over the screen briefly, so the players would be partially blinded and disorientated briefly, meanwhile the killer gets a brief 2-3 second haste effect, giving the killer a chance to catch up and land a hit.
A good survivor will be less affected by this and will be able to hold their nerve, while an unprepared player can be caught out more easily.However, this doesn't have to be a howl, but can also be a monstrous roar (like the Demogorgon does when it has hit someone) and should be hinted at as little as possible in advance. Otherwise, the killer effectively has no power if the survivor player knows seconds in advance that his screen is about to become less visible and takes a route where little can happen to him. Counterplay is important, but should not be too easy.
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The username is more or less a play on words, but I'm actually familiar with Werewolf: The Apocalypse. ...and honestly wouldn't want to include that here in terms of powers.
The reason is that the abilities there are either social, purely magical, or partial shapeshifting (I grow silver claws or have burning teeth, or the like), which don't really want to fit a werewolf in my eyes. That was the teething problem that White Wolf as a publisher let seep in when it effectively turned a game of political and personal horror into one of monstrous superheroes.
Accordingly, the werewolves there are also shamanistic eco-terrorists who have complete control over their form and are pretty good at controlling their anger to take advantage of it....which is a marked difference to the more classic werewolf image of a person who is overcome by their second nature (actually their rage) and is then a danger to everything around them because they follow their most animalistic, bloodthirsty urges.
The latter, however, is precisely what would make a good DbD killer type. A person who is an involuntary killer because they have caught the curse and are now being used by the Entitus to torment its victims. Another victim, but one so dangerous that pity is clearly out of place here. -
Honestly, the one-shot ability of a Meyer would feel a little too strong to me at first glance if you also have a Dash or something like that on the side. Although of course I can understand where the idea comes from.
Many werewolf films work by having the werewolf stalk the victim before the devastating attack. And that in combination with the ability to better track down survivors, which I suggested, would of course harmonise perfectly.
However, I would still like to know how you would have imagined this combination in detail. Just to give me a better idea of it and to see if you could perhaps tweak it to sharpen its profile. ...and to avoid the ability becoming an overpowered ability when it effectively combines Wesker/Demo & Ghostface/Meyers, effectively rendering their killer existences obsolete in-game.
New killers should enrich the game and not outdo existing ones in their core competences to such an extent that they become uninteresting. That's why I effectively modelled my original idea directly on the Demogorgon and simply replaced its teleportation ability with another ability that allows it to generate map pressure. :-) -
Me too, but I mainly opened this up so that thoughts can flow freely. So if you have any ideas for possible perks or suggestions/criticism about the powers, I'd be happy if you could add them here.
Once again: the more creative work you do in advance, the better it is for a developer to understand a concept and perhaps even accept and implement it.
In addition, of course, thinking along is a higher level of approval for the concept, which also makes the idea more attractive from an economic point of view. ^^
So for players on the survivor side of the game, I can perhaps see a certain thrill in the game again, should there be a killer that you can run away from but not really hide from. Something that was still there in the first few years, but was then increasingly lost under the bully squads of the time, which strengthened the chase as game content, but completely pushed out the hiding aspect. This aspect has not really returned, especially as the gameplay no longer focusses on it. So perhaps we can bury it productively in this way. :-)
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Doesn't sound bad. Especially when you consider that KO is only a thing because you want to take some of the pressure off the Gen Rush by having the Survivor search a little longer for the team member, which doesn't work if you put them on the hooks. There are too many perks that make this impossible or too many counterplay options to buy time.
But if the perk allows you to turn the whole thing into a hook and gives you a decent counter option against e.g. DS, Flipflopp, etc., so that the Survivor's team members have to become active themselves, you are not forced to let him slug to get the desired effect of gaining time to chase the others.