Thrrun
Thrrun
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- Thrrun
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@Nobsyde said:
Listen, I really can't explain any better the situation, I see where you stop understanding what is wrong with your reasoning, what I don't see is why.
Maybe it's a problem of communication, maybe it's a lack of experience in the game, I don't know. You'll eventually get it, take care ^^
I think it's more we have very different opinions on the matter tbh. As do alot of people on any subject.
I agree that this conversation has stopped going anywhere though. I have been playing this game for years. As I'm sure you have. That really has nothing todo with it. :)
You take care too. :)
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857612#Comment_857612
I'm not ignoring what you say - it's that what you say is simply not the subject, it's a straw man argument as I already stated.
You think that the hatch mechanics is to give the survivor the chance to escape, and that's it. But that's not the case anymore - the hatch mechanic (not the hatch itself) is there to avoid a stale mate, meaning that yes, both killer and survivor can still win, but it's not "50/50".
If the killer search for the hatch to close it before it opens, by camping it, you are not bypassing any game mechanic, exactly as survivors using a key. And no, a survivor cannot take the hatch if a competent killer finds it before it opens.
As for the "if it was just to avoid a stale mate then just activate EGC altogether", again, this doesn't prove anything - Devs decided that you could still escape through the hatch, giving the survivor one more opportunity other than the doors and add pressure for the killer (hence the slugging to find the hatch ;) ), it doesn't deduct from it being an anti-stale mate mechanic.
By using your logic I could say that if Devs wanted a 50/50 chance for the last survivor to escape they could have the killer and survivor being teleported to a table where they have to play a game of rock-paper-scissor ;)
It's not a straw man argument. The hatch is 50/50 if the killer finds it before it opens that means very little. Most killers will see the hatch during gameplay. Not all the time obviously.
Likewise if a survivor finds it before it opens it means very little. They know where it is but the game carries on. If the killer wants to stop and camp it, fine, gens get done. Game over.
If a survivor wants to camp it, fine, good chance killer will find you before it opens and boom. Game over.
The hatch is 50/50 at the point it opens. You adding stuff in does not change that. If a killer finds it an closes it. Fair game. If a survivor finds it an gets out. Fair game.
If both killer and survivor know where it is, it's who gets there first or hits it first. You yourself have just said the devs decided to give the hatch as one more opportunity to that last survivor as a way of escape. Yet you seem to defend a killer using spiteful gameplay to not let that last survivor have that given chance by the devs? Or am I reading that wrong?
Just because the hatch being closed starts EGC does not mean that it's not meant to be a 50/50 chance. The fact EGC does not start until it's closed tells us that. They know the chance of the killer getting it or the last survivor is 50/50.
Even after all this Edys, the point remains the same. Slugging number 3 to stop number 4 getting a chance at the hatch is spiteful gameplay.
:)
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857518#Comment_857518
hatch:
ok let's try again then - the hatch is meant to avoid a stale mate, from a design point of view. If it was meant to be a 50/50 escape for the last survivor then the only way to ensure that is to let the hatch spawn only when there's only one survivor left.
If it spawns before, as it is, it's not a 50/50 game by definition, because:
- if survivors have a key, it's 100% a survivor game
- if no key and killers find the hatch, they can close it and it's a 100% killer game
That's not something up to debate Thrrun, that's really all that there's to say.
In fact, you think about the hatch being a 50/50 because you are considering scenarios where neither the killer nor the survivor know where the hatch is - evidence being that you find spiteful if the killer search for the hatch before it opens.
But this thinking is like playing Monopoly and telling your friends "if you don't leave at least one Train Station for me you are being spiteful". ######### :P
slug n°3 to stop n° 4 is spiteful:
that's a straw man argument - you are not slugging n° 3 to stop n° 4, you are slugging n° 3 to kill everyone.
I don't eat hamburgers because I despise cows and want them to be killed, I get cows killed because I like to eat hamburgers.
...but maybe you are a vegan, and this example will prove I'm being spiteful :P
Umm, I never said the killer looking for the hatch was spiteful.
I answered this already. You asked me about this and also killer camping said hatch. I answered what you asked.
I also have said on here if the killer finds it and closes it, that's fair game. You saying if they close it, because they find it before number 4, it's 100% the killers game but we are not talking about after it's closed, we are on about it being there and open. As I said if a killer finds it and closes it that's fair. Likewise if a survivor finds it and gets out, that's fair. The game gives that chance but yet some killers disagree with it so much they have to play in a spiteful way to make sure number 4 never gets that chance.
Why are you ignoring what I have already answered? :/
The hatch is in the game to give 50/50 it only opens when there is only 1 survivor left. If it was not meant to be a chance for that last survivor it would not open. EGC would just start as soon as number 3 was dead, like it does now when the killer closes the hatch. Again I have already said this. :)
Opening it with a key is a totally different subject. Because this post was about slugging number 3 to make sure number 4 did not get the hatch. If they have a key this is all totally moot, for that survivor with the key. If you want to talk about keys, I'm happy todo so but not here as it will derail.
:)
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@Nobsyde said:
The fact is, it does not matter if you think that survivor deserves a chance at the hatch, the game gives them that chance. You have to play in a spiteful way to stop it. Because that's your entitlement, you feel you know better then how the game has been designed.
We have already agreed that the hatch is not designed for a 50/50, it's designed to avoid a stale mate.
There's no entitlement to try to kill everyone - you are not robbing anyone, you play for your win, not for their loss.
There are spiteful way to play, of course, but trying hard for the 4k is not one of those - essentially because if you are being spiteful (camping the slugged / hooked survivor, for example) will 100% net you the loss of the 4th survivor, if the hatch is not already beside you - meaning you are not trying hard for the 4k.
No Edys, I said, I agreed the hatch stops the game being taken hostage.
However I do believe the hatch is meant to be a 50/50 chance. So I think you have misread or got my posts mixed up. :)
When I said I agree it was quoting your post about a survivor being spiteful.
Yes it's entitlement to feel you have a right to take a chance away just because you think it's bad game design. The fact a killer has to slug number 3 just to stop number 4 right there is spiteful gameplay. We have already established from some but not all posters on this thread that they do so to stop number 4 getting the hatch, because they don't think they deserve a fair chance at getting the hatch, for reasons they have stated.
No one is going to stop doing it, I'm not on a mission to try and make anyone stop. I just stated it is in fact spiteful gameplay. Because I thought that's what this thread was about. Slugging number 3 to stop number 4 and opinions surrounding that subject.
:)
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857357#Comment_857357
"You are the one who feels entitled to take that chance away. That's not how the game is meant to be or the hatch would not be in the game"
You are missing the entire point. No one has said that wasn't how the game was meant to be. We are giving reasons why it should be changed. Also, just because something is in the game currently doesn't mean it's not bad and should be changed. I mean literally if that was the case why would the devs ever have patches changing anything about the game?
You are saying the hatch is fair because it's a 50/50. However, it is a 50/50 AFTER the survivors have already LOST. Should the last survivor to escape out the gates be blocked for a 50/50 chance in my scenario I presented? After all it's a 50/50, that's fair right? Expecting a hatch after you lost the game is extremely entitled.
". If you find the hatch and close it that's fair game. However slugging to stop it opening and risking number 4 getting there first is spiteful."
I don't see how you can't see the very flawed rational in this. It isn't spiteful, you are being entitled in this scenario.
What do you think of the scenario I presented about the gate blocking the last survivor? That is literally exactly what the survivors currently have. By your logic that is fair.
Ok we might be on a different page to each other. I have been talking about why slugging number 3 to stop number 4 is spiteful. However you said you are talking about why the hatch should be removed. Two completely different things.
I did not see what you said about the gate being blocked, have read it back now. In the scenario you said, no that would not fair. Because killers can indeed pull survivors off the gate switch or down them. In fact I see many a time where that happens, or noed comes into play.
If as a killer, once the gates were powered it was over, you could not do anything, I would agree. It should also be pointed out there is a perk to block said gates. I have forgotten the name but I'm sure you know it.
The fact is, it does not matter if you think that survivor deserves a chance at the hatch, the game gives them that chance. You have to play in a spiteful way to stop it. Because that's your entitlement, you feel you know better then how the game has been designed.
Yes of course they change things in a patch, if they remove said hatch, this will all be moot.
:)
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@Nobsyde said:
How would the killer know it spawned, yet the survivor not? If the killer happened to find it, that's fair. However if it's not open, what can be done.
The hatch spawns when the number of generators done are equal to the survivors alive plus one.
When two survivors are still alive, if 3 generators are done the hatch spawns, it's just closed.
Likewise if a survivor finds it first, but it's not open yet. What matters is when it opens who finds/gets to it first.
Until it opens it doesn't matter if the survivor knows where it is - if the killer finds it he can just hook the third survivor and camp the hatch to close it.
I agree.
If you agree on this, then you should also agree that a killer that tries to prevent this situation is not being spiteful.
I agreed with your second post about a spiteful survivor throwing their team mate under a bus. I just quoted both in one post, maybe it did not show.
Yes and likewise survivors know that same information about the hatch after so many gens. Just because the killer knows the same thing does not mean they are being unfair.
As for a killer camping the hatch, I have seen both sides do this. I have seen the both of them literally on the hatch when it opens. In this case it's a luck game. I have seen both a survivor get out and another time the killer slam it shut. However no one of them is doing something that puts the odds in their favour.
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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857325#Comment_857325
Implying it spiteful it means that you did it specifically to go against the survivor however my emblem system doesn't give two craps about a 50/50 percent chance for the survivor.
If the 4th survivor is not dead I don't get my iridescent I don't gain bonus points because I gave the last survivor a chance.
Well if we are going down that road, then what about a survivors emblem? The one for escaping?
You are slugging number 3 to stop number 4. It's spiteful but does that mean you can't do it? No.
I never tried to say you can't do it, for whatever reason you want to. What I did do is point out it's spiteful gameplay. I stand by that. :)
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857201#Comment_857201
Except in that scenario you are talking about him wasting 2 perk slots on it, the survivors are getting it for free. I also do not like NOED however anyway, I think it gives undeserved kills.
"Slugging someone to stop someone else getting a fair chance is spiteful"
They are not being slugged to prevent a fair chance. They are being slugged to prevent an unfair chance. They already had their chance with 4 survivors to do 5 gens. Expecting another free chance is entitlement.
"You are also stopping another from moving on to another match, the guy on the floor."
Slugging is not stopping anyone from moving on to another match. What is stopping them from moving on is not saving their teammate or doing a gen and just hiding till they die.
"The fact remains the same, it's spiteful gameplay."
It is not spiteful in the least. That is entitlement.
Sorry Blue, I only just read you post, was not ignoring it.
The game puts the hatch in to give 50/50.
You are the one who feels entitled to take that chance away. That's not how the game is meant to be or the hatch would not be in the game. Once number 3 died EGC would start. The same way it does when you close the hatch.
I am not entitled at all. It's not me who feels I have a right to crap on someone's chance. If you find the hatch and close it that's fair game. However slugging to stop it opening and risking number 4 getting there first is spiteful.
Once it's closed the survivor has to open the gates, without being found. If they are found, fair game. Not every game is perfect so it's unfair to say they already had enough chances but you somehow feel entitled todo so. And then don't like it being called out for what it is, spiteful.
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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857115#Comment_857115
It is in no way spiteful.
As a killer if I want to secure emblems maybe for an achievement maybe for the challenges I'm going to play the most efficient way to get there betting on a 50/50 percent chance is not efficient.
Even though I find it annoying if a survivor uses a key I don't consider it spiteful. Using a key gives them the highest probability to escape rather than trying to risk gens it's a 2-man situation for example.
It is spiteful gameplay. If you slug number 3 to stop number 4 getting a chance at the hatch.
It does not matter the reason you do it, it's a spiteful thing todo. You yourself know you are doing it to stop them getting the hatch.
Again I will repeat, play the game how you want. But the fact remains the same it's spiteful gameplay.
Again I will say, both sides can be spiteful. Spiteful gameplay is not limited to only killers.
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857249#Comment_857249
50/50 means that you have equal probability to get the hatch.
In fact, if hatch already spawned and the killer go and search around the map, the survivor has 0% probability to get it.
Even if it doesn't spawn before the last survivor dies, the killer has still higher probability to find it just because of speed.
In other words: no, it's not a 50/50 mechanic, not from a deliberate stand point, not from a side effect either ^^
How would the killer know it spawned, yet the survivor not? If the killer happened to find it, that's fair. However if it's not open, what can be done.
Likewise if a survivor finds it first, but it's not open yet. What matters is when it opens who finds/gets to it first.
@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857221#Comment_857221
Let's try this version:
Letting your team mate die on hook or on the ground while you hide waiting for the hatch is spiteful. It's not just trying to win. You are denying someone a fair chance for your own personal gain. You are also stopping another from moving on to another match, the killer.
The fact remains the same, it's spiteful gameplay.
I agree.
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@MightyDwight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857221#Comment_857221
A 'fair chance'? So I'm supposed to LET them get the hatch by hooking the Survivor so he can kill himself?
There's that Survivor-biased narrative showing itself; Killers have to give Survivors every chance to escape or they are spiteful.
But Thrrun says it's OKAY to be spiteful, just feel ashamed of it when you do.
Funny how Survivors don't have to give Killers every chance to down & hook them. Nope. Only works one day. Only Killers can be spiteful. Not giving everyone a 'fair chance' is spiteful.
You're exactly the type of person I was parodying. Grats on proving my point.
Dwight, I think we should agree to disagree at this point and move on.
I have already said I know both sides can be spiteful to the other side. This discussion is just going nowhere at this point.
I stand by what I said. You stand by what you said. Let's leave it there. :)
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857096#Comment_857096
The hatch is not meant to be a 50/50.
The hatch is meant to avoid a stale mate, where the last survivor keeps on hiding instead of trying to do generators, and the killer can't find him.
It is very much so that Devs even changed the mechanic so that the last survivor always gets the hatch to spawn - you don't need any generators done anymore.
Yes the hatch stops the game being taken hostage. However it is meant to be a 50/50 chance for both killer and survivor. If it was not the case once number 3 died the game would start EGC without hatch at all.
:)
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@MightyDwight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857185#Comment_857185
Spite
noun
- a desire to hurt, annoy, or offend someone.
verb
- deliberately hurt, annoy, or offend (someone).
Look at that; trying to win is not being spiteful. Unless you consider losing hurtful. In which case; why are you playing PvP games?
Slugging to win is not spiteful. Slugging to deliberately anger someone is. But just doing it to try for the 4K is not. So stop.
Stop trying to pretend you're some understanding guy 'I know you play badly, and you're allowed too, but you must know that you ARE playing badly!'
It's a freaking joke meant to shame Killers and make you look oh so understanding.
Umm, I think you need to go back to Google and put in spiteful not just spite.
Slugging someone to stop someone else getting a fair chance is spiteful. It's not just trying to win. You are denying someone a fair chance for your own personal gain. You are also stopping another from moving on to another match, the guy on the floor.
The fact remains the same, it's spiteful gameplay.
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@MightyDwight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857149#Comment_857149
No, see, it's not spiteful or unfair. You're only saying it is, which is an attempt to control how one side plays through peer pressure.
'Only spiteful, mean, bad killers slug! You don't want to be a bad Killer!'
'Only spiteful Survivors use Head On to stun Killers! You don't want to be a spiteful Survivor!'
For something to be spiteful, there has to be intent to be mean. Just trying to get that 4K? You suspect Survivor 4 found the hatch, so you slug Survivor 3? THESE ARE NOT SPITEFUL.
You're giving slugging a negative connotation simply to control how people view it and thus control how Killers play.
So again; slugging to get a 4K is not spiteful. Or mean. Or unfair. Or any other bullcrap word you want to add to it.
I'm not trying to control anything Dwight. I even said in my first post here if you want to play like that, so be it. But yes, yes it's spiteful gameplay.
It's spiteful because you are only doing it for personal gain, you are going to spite someone else to get what you want. That is being spiteful.
It does not matter if you think number 4 found the hatch, if they did, they did so fairly. In the process of being spiteful to number 4, you left number 3 on the floor helpless. They can't move on to the next match, unless they dc. You are being spiteful to both players. Yet you want to try and justify it.
No one is saying you can't play the game how you choose, but the fact remains the same it's spiteful gameplay.
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@MightyDwight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857115#Comment_857115
Boo freaking hoo. It's not spiteful, it's called playing to win. heaven forbid a Killer play to win without being told they should feel bad for doing so.
Is it spiteful to genrush and leave in under 5 minutes? No? Funny how it only works one way, huh?
It's spiteful to play to win as a KILLER, but not spiteful to run meta perks & SWF as a SURVIVOR. No. That's just playing the game normally. Only KILLERS can be bad and try too hard.
You're exactly the type of mindset I was making fun of in the OP. Someone who thinks trying as Killer is horrible and tries to shame people for not doing what they want.
It does not matter how you try an say it Dwight, it's spiteful gameplay. You are slugging to stop someone having a fair chance.
I don't think killers are more spiteful than survivors, both can be spiteful.
However doing gens is not really stopping a killer having a fair chance. Also both killers and survivors run powerful perks. Let's not derail.
It's not spiteful to get 4k at all if you got it in a fair way. It's like when a survivor is being spiteful by DCing when a killer finds the hatch first and closes it. I'm not picking sides here, let's not turn this into yet another killer gameplay vs survivor gameplay argument.
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@MightyDwight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/857096#Comment_857096
No, it's not spiteful. Saying it's spiteful is trying to shame Killers for trying to win. 'Well, you CAN go for that 4K, but it's spiteful!'
This is complete BS. If it's not 'spiteful' for Survivors to genrush & escape, then it's not spiteful to slug to get a 4K. Stop shaming Killers in an attempt to dictate acceptable play-styles. It's disgusting.
Yes, it is spiteful gameplay, very much so.
The only reason you do it would be to stop the last guy getting the hatch. That's called being spiteful. You are not giving someone a chance to find the hatch and get out, because you want to spite them of that so you can guarantee your kill.
If a killer is ashamed of being called spiteful then they should not act in a spiteful way.
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I have said before that if you slug just to stop the last guy getting the hatch, it's spiteful.
The hatch is in fact meant to be a 50/50 shot for both. If the survivor finds it, they get out. If the killer finds it, they close it.
End of the day it's not wrong of a killer to slug the all but one last guy but it's spiteful gameplay.
Some will own that and that's fine. But when you then have spiteful gameplay happen to you, don't moan.
Both killers and survivors can be spiteful and there is no need for it. If you feel you need to play like that then so be it but don't try and deny it's anything but spiteful.
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Umm, I think it's spiteful gameplay tbh. The hatch is there because it's meant to be a 50/50 the survivor will find it and get out. Or the killer will and close it.
However being spiteful does not mean the killer is wrong todo so. It just means they are spiteful.
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I like the fact that we are getting this information up front tbh. So many things on this game are, oh so secret.
Do I think this will stop people leaving a match? No. Truth be told there are reasons people leave other then just throwing dolly out. It does not matter if you agree with the reasons or not, the fact remains the same. People leave.
I really hope after this drops to the main, devs start looking into ways to reward for staying as well. Losing a pip for getting camped or tunneled is bullshit to be freak. More so if you are unlucky and get more then one match in a row where killer is a camper.
The reward for staying is the same as the punishment for leaving at current. Under those circumstances. A de-pip.
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Ahh, yes I've had this where my team see the killer an poof. Gone. This is why I think the killer should be known before the match starts, it does not make people play as is current. It just makes them leave or kill themselves on the hook.
I have said before when you get hooked it should be a given you get a black pip. This would stop deranking when you get a tunneling or camping killer and also in your case too. Because you could walk up to the killer and ask him to kill you, even a nice killer will do it, if they know why instead of giving the hatch.
I also don't think a killer should de-pip for such silliness because it's not their fault they were not known until the match started. Any player of this game will know a lot people leave against some killers, just for the fact they are that killer.
It does not matter if you agree or not with the reason, the fact remains the same.
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I think it just goes to show again that this game lacks information as a whole. It's so silly that they would remove something that let's players make a informed decision.
I don't see the point in having ranks if others can't see said rank and choose to play with you or not.
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I've never had this to what I know to. Then again I'm crap with names and have a life. If they remember me and want to take me out their match early then so be it. I will move on to the next.
However seen as you are very upset about this and feel somewhat targeted. I think you should record the gameplay, after you have a few recorded matches with the same player and can show that he is in fact targeting you, you file a ticket and see what they can do.
They may not be able to do anything but it's worth a try. If nothing it might make you feel better.
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I don't like going against pig anyways tbh. However I find most of the killers that play her will overlook you with a trap on if they are in chase with someone else. It's just a luck game really.
Fun at first but I went up against 3 Pigs in a row the other day, on the last one I just did gens till my trap went boom. I still got a pip, so alls well.
Tell you what though, I would take Pig's traps over Trapper's any day lol.
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Not too sure how I feel about this one. I don't run around blowing kisses at them. However I do tap them to make the killer look round said gen.
Does not always work but sometimes it does. If I am running to unhook someone and pass a gen that's not running, I will blow it a kiss as you call it so the killer thinks someone has just started work on it an is hiding because of them approaching.
But no I don't blow them all kisses because they have been kicked. If I see them get kicked, that means I was working on it and close by.
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Umm, I think a better option would be allowing the survivor to get back up after some time. That way the killer can still do a quick look around to see if the last survivor is nearby but can't take the piss and leave the last but one survivor on the floor for as long as they please to go look for the last one so they can kill both easy.
However this would only work if there are only two left. And no it should not be a perk. I also think if the killer downs the same survivor three times it's a instant mori. This will allow the killer to down the same one again but puts more pressure to hook them and not just leave them until they are almost dead or find the last survivor.