TheEdster
TheEdster
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@Hyd said:
I agree. Whatever gets changed needs to make it so the last survivor doesn't "luck" into finding the Hatch, but rather makes them work for it. Unfortunately I think any change to this results in what Killers already believe is "unfair" to them, becoming "unfair" to the Survivors. Killers can attempt to avoid this situation by slugging the 3rd survivor while they search for and finish off the 4th, and it sometimes works but still kinda comes down to luck, it's just a bit less favorable to the last survivor since they will only be able to crawl in search of hatch, but somehow they still manage to get there, again, lucking into it by being downed near where it spawns or the Killer taking too long to finish the 4th survivor and then losing where the slugged one crawled off to.
Regardless, I have some ideas:
- Hatch doesn't spawn for last Survivor if there are still 3+ gens left. At 2 gens remaining, it spawns. My thoughts on this are that 2 gens remaining is a decently close game, so last survivor should be given a chance at escape. If 3 or more gens remain...the Killer did their job, so the Survivor can take the L and die with dignity or, continue the fight - no free hatch.
- In addition to the above, increased heal/mend/repair speed for the last survivor. No sure on an appropriate percentage to use here that'd be fair, I'd say at least 40%, maybe even 50% minimum, with further increases from items/add-ons/perks being possible.
- Give Killer the Hatch aura. Might seem OP but it gives the Killer the option to defend the Hatch, at risk of the Survivor (with their buffed repair speed) getting the last 2 gens done. Alternately, (and probably more frequently), the Killer could just close Hatch, but this is also a risk as the Survivor could be waiting by a door for that to happen. Also prevents the game from being delayed if survivor decides to just afk or something.
Some of this may be too much. I think the first point should be a primary consideration though, along with the second point. I know some will say even that isn't "fair" because the last survivor could have played really well while having crappy team mates that suicided on hook, were AFK, etc, and so the last survivor shouldn't be "punished" but imo, that's just the way it goes. You can't balance the game based on those sorts of things because it's impossible to know for sure WHY they played (or didn't play) the way they did. Besides, the whole reason we're even discussing this is because some Killers feel it isn't "fair" that they do their job and the last survivor gets a free escape. So, what IS "fair?"
I have an idea too on how we can bring this about
The last Survivor should earn the Hatch:
- After the 3rd Survivor has been sacrificed The Endgame Collapse activates, the timer will have to be longer.
- The Hatch now becomes now visible, but it does not open.
- The last Survivor gains the repair speed bonus (numbers could be tweaked).
- 5 Generators left--> 75% bonus--> 45,71 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 4 Generators left--> 90% bonus--> 42,11 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 3 Generators left --> 105% bonus--> 39,02 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 2 Generators left--> 120% bonus--> 36,36 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 1 Generator left --> 135% bonus--> 34,04 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- If the Killer gets to the Hatch first they can close the Hatch and the Survivor has to finish another Generator.
- If they can finish a Generator, the Hatch will open and the Survivor can escape.
This is of course simplified and a lot of details need to be worked out, I am working on that.
Thank you :)
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@Milo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1957303#Comment_1957303
Ah, so basically old Left Behind!... which would lead to survivor hiding most of the time because just touching a generator would most likely be a death sentence (unless the bonus is like.... 400%?).
Like I said I am still working on my ideas, they are not finished yet.
A 400% bonus would mean that a Survivor can complete a Generator from 0% in only 16 seconds, I think that is way to much.
The bonus must be just right so that neither the Survivor nor the Killer feels completely powerless.
I was thinking that the repair speed bonus increases for each Generator completed during the Trial. This is to reward the Survivor and to compensate for the fact that the fewer Generators are left to be completed the Killer can patrol the map faster. I was thinking about these numbers:
- 5 Generators left--> 75% bonus--> 45,71 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 4 Generators left--> 90% bonus--> 42,11 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 3 Generators left --> 105% bonus--> 39,02 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 2 Generators left--> 120% bonus--> 36,36 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
- 1 Generator left --> 135% bonus--> 34,04 seconds to complete a Generator from 0%
Of course these numbers could still be tweaked if it would turn out to be too much or not enough.
Basically my idea is the following:
- After the 3rd Survivor has been sacrificed The Endgame Collapse activates, the timer will have to be longer.
- The Hatch now becomes now visible, but it does not open.
- The last Survivor gains the repair speed bonus (see numbers above).
- If they can finish a Generator, the Hatch will open and the Survivor can escape.
- If the Killer gets to the Hatch first they can close the Hatch and the Survivor has to finish another Generator.
This is of course simplified and a lot of details need to be worked out, I am working on that.
Thank you :)
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@Lexilogo said:
As a Killer main, I don't really feel the same way. If I've killed 3 Survivors, I've already "won" that trial. The last guy having a chance to get out is fine and it being RNG-based isn't much skin off my teeth.
This is doubly true with the hatch rework. As the Killer, you have (effectively) won if you find either the Hatch or the Survivor, the Survivor needs to find the Hatch before stumbling into and getting downed by you. This automatically puts the Killer at the advantage in the hatch endgame, as it should be.
While I'm not against the idea that other concepts for endgame could be more interesting, I've yet to actually hear one. To critique the three options presented so far in this thread:
This would mean if the Survivor team gets truly stomped and can't complete two gens, the game will essentially slow to a crawl once the last Survivor is left standing. Doubly so if they didn't even complete one gen.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1957303#Comment_1957303
Once again this would most likely slow the game to a crawl especially if the Killer has set up a successful 3-gen. Besides, I don't think there is a level of repair speed buff that would make gen patrolling against a solo Survivor a fun and fair situation for both sides, it would either result in even mediocre Killers being able to totally lock down the game, or a Survivor repairing and finishing gens before a Killer can physically reach the gen. Generators as a mechanic really, really require multiple Survivors to be in play for them to work.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1957405#Comment_1957405
Even if we assume Exit Gates are rebalanced so they aren't adjacent (and while we're at it, let's also assume the spots where you can watch both gates at once are also no longer a thing), Killers will essentially never lose against a solo Survivor with the Exit Gates being powered unless they ######### up monumentally with the Survivor able to successfully hide somewhere after putting some power on an Exit Gate.
I mean, think about the current hatch endgame. If you close the Hatch, how many times does the last Survivor actually manage to open an Exit Gate? Excluding the times I've allowed a Survivor to do so, I don't think it's happened to me once.
And on top of that, many Killers like Hillbilly, Demogorgon, Huntress, Trapper, ecetera have the odds tilted even further in this situation towards their side.
TL:DR: Yes, the hatch endgame is essentially a roll of the dice as to if the last Survivor makes it or if the Killer gets a completed 4K. In my opinion, that isn't a problem.
I completely understand your point of view and I know that what people think of the Hatch will always remain an opinion, some people are fine with it while others are not.
I would like to explain why I believe what I do.
As a Survivor main my favorite moments in the game were the moments when I was the last Survivor remaining in the Trial. The thrill of trying to beat the Killer on my own were my favorite moments. That is also the reason why the old version of the perk Left Behind was my favorite perk. The introduction of The Endgame Collapse completely took that away. Of course I won't deny that The EGC was a big improvement. What I would like is to bring that kind of gameplay back to the game and improve it so that the Survivors do not have the ability to hold the game hostage while also not make the Survivors completely hopeless. I am writing my own ideas for this.
Of course this will alway remain my opinion and I doubt that I can convince enough people of my ideas, but I can hope. :)
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Personally I think the Hatch should be earned by the last Survivor and not given. I think after the 3rd Survivor has been sacrificed the last Survivor gains a huge bonus to their repair speed. The Hatch does not open untill the last Survivor has finished a Generator.
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I dislike the Hatch in its current state too. I think that it should remain in the game, but the last Survivor should earn it instead first. I thought of something like this:
- The Endgame Collapse triggers when the last Generator is completed or after the 3rd Survivor has been sacrificed (When there is only 1 Survivor left the timer is permently slowed down).
- The Hatch only becomes visible when The Endgame Collapse is active (this way the Hatch can no longer be used as an early escape if the Survivor has a key).
- When there is only 1 Survivor left the Hatch does not open.
- The last Survivor gets a big bonus to their repair speed.
- Every time the Survivor finishes a Generator, The Endgame Collapse Timer is paused for a moment and the Hatch will open again.
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I would also love maybe a new cosmetic for Bill.
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Great idea!
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I agree moris need to be looked at, but this?
Why would you as a Survivor give the Killer such an advantage?
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I am currently creating an idea to change the way the Hatch works. I haven't completely thought it through yet, but I will give you a general idea.
I always wanted to more skillbased Hatch mechanic, the last Survivor has to earn it instead of just getting it.
-When there is only 1 Survivor left the Hatch spawns, but does not open.
-The Survivor gets a new status effect, this status effect grands the last Survivor a big bonus to their repair speed.
-If the Survivor manages to finish a Generator, then the Hatch opens and the Survivor can escape.
-If the Killer finds it first they can close it and the Survivor has to finish another Generator again for the Hatch to open again.
-If the Survivor completes another Generator, the Hatch will spawns somewhere else on the map and reopen.
-To prevent the last Survivor taking the game hostage, you can add a Timer similar to The Endgame Collapse.
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If what you say happened exactly as you say it happened then I have to assume that it is bugged. I don't see a reason why you should not be able get it if people dc.
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I fully agree with that.
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@MiniPisa said:
I gotta be honest the first perk confuses me.
Second perk sounds decent. Would come in handy when you're the last survivor left.
Third is a good idea, but would probably end up being a nightmare for the killer. If you have the new Zarina perk then this would become OP. But, I appreciate you coming up with a perk that stops killers from farming a slugged guy.
Thank you for commenting
I don't know how to explain the first perk any better, because I think it is pretty clear. You cleanse a Hex Totem like Ruin, after you've finished it takes an extra 10 seconds before the perks is deactivated. This could be potentially be a negative, but it allows you for to make an early escape. Because also the visual and the audio cues that happen when a Hex Totem is cleansed are delayed, which allows you to be Long Gone. It is the same with completing Generators when working on them alone. The visual and audio cues are delayed by 10 seconds, as well as the indicator on the bottom left of the amount of Generators that have to completed.
I agree with you that if you combine Stand Your Ground with For The People that would be OP. So in order to activate it you would have to finish the last part of the heal bar of dying Survivors.
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I think this perk could do with an entire rework:
When you pick up a Survivor from the Dying State within the Killer's Terror Radius that Survivor gets the Endurance Status effect for 10 seconds. Any damage taken that would put the picked up Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound Status effect. The Survivor has 10/15/20 seconds to Mend themselves. If the picked up Survivor takes any damage while affected by Deep Wound, or the Deep Wound timer ends, the picked up Survivor is immediately be put into the Dying State.
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Looks pretty cool
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What I would absolutely love to see is a new form of Endgame for the last Survivor to try and take on the Killer alone. I don't think it would be that hard to implement either, I think all you need is a different countdown and a new Status Effect. The big problem that this game used to have is that the Survivor had the ability to hold the game hostage. So you can't just close the Hatch and then not have anything happen.
It wouldn't fix the RNG of the Exit Gates, I definitely agree that it has to be tweaked. I do believe that the chance of surviving should be small for the last Survivor, but if the Exit Gates are place on the same wall there is 0 chance of escaping for the Survivor. I also don't think that the Exit Gates have to be placed on the opposite sites of the map all the time.
I am writing an idea that would allow for the last Survivor to take on the Killer alone, without having the ability to hold the game hostage and simultaneously feel the pressure and the tension that the Endgame Collapse gives you.
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@Trwth said:
I am astonished! I had the same exact idea! I gotta say though, your presentation and images are way better than mine.
In any case, I absolutely agree. Not only generators need minigames, but other actions such as healing should have it as well. I could see DbD being a really interactive game, so I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one here. :)
I just read your post and I have to say that I am pretty baffled as well. I almost can't believe it. I got my inspiration for the idea from looking at the 4 moving bars on top of the Generator. I really like your idea for healing and map objectives as well :)
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@KingFrost said:
This is an awful lot of reading to ask "Can I share my idea?"
You're right, I didn't realize that. I have added the link to the actual idea I had.
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Considering he is a licensed character it seems very unlikely, but there is always hope of course..
I would love some cosmetics for my man Bill.
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I agree with that
I have come up with 3 perks that I think are decent:
Long Gone Every time you cleanse a Hex Totem or finish a Generator alone, the Visual and Audio cues for the Killer and Survivors are delayed for 5/10/15 seconds (The effect of the Hex Totem persist for the remaining seconds and Perks that trigger when a Generator is finished, i.e. Adrenaline, Poised, Rancor, Bitter Murmur, etc, will also be delayed).
Accolade Work For every full Generator you complete you gain a token, for each token that you have 6%/8%/10% of the progression bar of the Exit Gates is immediately completed when you touch the Exit gates. (Extra explanation: when you have 2 token, that is 20% completed. When you have 2,5 or 2,99 tokens that is still 20%. The Exit Gates takes 20 seconds to open, 20% of 20 seconds is 4 seconds. 20-4=16 seconds. So if you have 2 tokens it takes only 16 seconds to open the Exit Gates instead of 20 seconds)
Stand Your Ground When you pick up a Survivor from the Dying State within the Killer's Terror Radius that Survivor gets the Endurance Status effect for 10 seconds. Any damage taken that would put the picked up Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound Status effect. The Survivor has 10/15/20 seconds to Mend themselves. If the picked up Survivor takes any damage while affected by Deep Wound, or the Deep Wound timer ends, the picked up Survivor is immediately be put into the Dying State (This Perk I could also see being added to already existing Perks like Buckle Up).
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What about this:
When you are the last Survivor remaining in the Trial you get 1500 bloodpoints in the Survival category: Last Man Standing
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When you are the last Survivor left in the Trial you get 1500 bloodpoints in the Survival catagory. 'Last Man Standing'
Something like this would be nice I think.
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I have noticed it too.
Also when he carries you it looks different.
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What I think would be important is to make repairing Generators more engaging, like a constant mini-game while repairing Generators. Since repairing Generators is the Survivors' only objective at the moment it should be more exciting, more than just a random skill check. If something like this is implemented maybe the Developers could increase the time it takes to repair Generators if that is needed to combat the Genrush at high ranks, since they didn't want to that because repairing Generators makes for boring gameplay.
And increase the points for completing a Generator gives you to 2500 bloodpoints.
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My favorite perk was the old Left Behind. I loved those incredible tense moment where it was just you and the Killer, if you knew how to use it it was surprisingly useful.
Right now it's either Bond or Spine chill, for the information it provides.
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What do you think about this?
The perk deactivates when: The Killer hooks someone else within those 60 seconds. When the Survivor is fully healed. When the timer expires.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/925342#Comment_925342
Nothing against that idea, it fits with the character very well, I just don't like teleportation in General, I enjoy more Killers that rely on their high mobility.
I definitely like killers with high mobilty too.
But Legion is my favorite and I want him as strong as possible without being OP.
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@AhoyWolf said:
I like the idea of the DWs giving the Survivors Oblivious, it makes sense.
Also I like that increasing speed idea!
I'm not sure about the locker "teleport", I never liked that idea tbh...
About that last idea, I had something very similar in mind, let me explain.
When Legion enters FF and hits a Survivor everything will be like now, Killer Instinct will reveal every Survivor in your terror radius and all that stuff, but after hitting a second or more Survivors, all the previous Survivors will be revealed by the "Red Killer Instinct" (No name yet), if they are in your terror radius of course, this version of KI will let you down Survivors with FF (doesn't matter if they have DWs or not, but they must be injured), Survivors will be notified if the "Red KI" is applied on them by the DWs timer turning red and their aura being red (they will see them selfs like Legion does when KI is active).
This will punish Survivors staying close to each other when playing against the Legion.
What do you think? Is it balanced?
I think your idea is balanced.
That is also why I don't think my idea is too OP, since survivors have almost full control on whether The Legion can use it or not.
Out of curiosity, why don't you like the locker idea? I thought it was pretty fitting. In the Spotlight trailer for them they said 'The Legion is in fact a group of agile killers, able to catch the survivors off guard with their power of navigation.' This idea gives Legion a good sense of navigation and with the Undetectable status effect they will really be able to catch survivors off guard.
Thanks for your reply;)
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@AhoyWolf said:
I like the idea of the DWs giving the Survivors Oblivious, it makes sense.
Also I like that increasing speed idea!
I'm not sure about the locker "teleport", I never liked that idea tbh...
About that last idea, I had something very similar in mind, let me explain.
When Legion enters FF and hits a Survivor everything will be like now, Killer Instinct will reveal every Survivor in your terror radius and all that stuff, but after hitting a second or more Survivors, all the previous Survivors will be revealed by the "Red Killer Instinct" (No name yet), if they are in your terror radius of course, this version of KI will let you down Survivors with FF (doesn't matter if they have DWs or not, but they must be injured), Survivors will be notified if the "Red KI" is applied on them by the DWs timer turning red and their aura being red (they will see them selfs like Legion does when KI is active).
This will punish Survivors staying close to each other when playing against the Legion.
What do you think? Is it balanced?
I think it is balanced.
That is also why I don't think that my idea was too OP, since survivors have almost all control whether it will happen or not.
Out of curiosity, why do you not like that locker idea. I thought it was pretty fitting. In the spotlight trailer for them they said that 'the Legion is in fact a group of agile killers, able to catch survivors off guard with their power of navigation'. This idea give the Legion a pretty good sense of navigation and with the Undetectable status effect he is really capable of catching survivors off guard.
Thanks for your reply;)