Mr_Redwood
Mr_Redwood
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- Mr_Redwood
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I've seen this suggestion floating around to give Insidious a Lethal-like effect of extending undetectable duration. The problem with this is that now every undetectable perk in the game would have to be balanced around 2 values just like aura perks. Did you think old deerstalker was too low at 3 seconds? Well that's because it is kind of designed around 5 seconds being the max (now 6). They could easily make the base duration 6 seconds and that wouldn't be broken, but then they'd have to think about how 8 seconds with Lethal Pursuer is too much.
If Insidious gave +10 seconds undetectable, all current and future undetectable perks would have to be evaluated if they were too strong with +10 seconds. If so, they would need to have lower base values to accommodate that somebody might run Insidious.
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Here is the mathematical breakdown:
Travelling 100 meters with a 4.6 m/s killer takes 21.7 seconds.
Travelling 100 meters with a 5.06 m/s killer (which is 10% haste) takes 19.8 seconds.
Unless you give it an insane number buff, it really isn't that valuable even with your proposed buff. Please also keep in mind that it will have a very small uptime throughout the match when you account for approaching active generators and leaving survivors on the hook. I doubt that anytime after the first chase you will ever travel 100 meters with full uptime of this perk outside of hatch scenarios.
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I've seen some of the other commenters saying that they don't like Knock Out, which is not a perk I particularly paid attention to. If the developers are interested in punishing survivors for prematurely leaving unbroken pallets, maybe we should just look at scaling back pallet density? Base-game changes are always better to address such issues rather than perks.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Clown/Spirit/Singularity/Freddy etc are all going to be broken this coming patch with all these m1 perk changes.
Clown does not need the ability to stack haste.I agree and disagree to an extent. Do the recent perk changes (ptb and STBFL buff) make m1 killer broken? You could say that and I would see your argument. But I don't think the straw that would break the camel's back would be Clown's singular perk haste stacking (please note that I'm referring to the stacking of only one perk, anything else should receive either dim returns or not be allowed). A x% basic attack cooldown is gross on Clown, but it is also just as if not more gross on those other killers you mentioned. He is not the bottleneck of design here. I would not say that running a perk to occasionally get +5% haste is more broken on Clown in these builds than Singu, Spirit, Freddy (who can also run that +5% haste perk with no haste dim returns).
To simplify:
- If m1 perk changes are broken, they are broken for every m1 killer.
- It is better to look at whether stacking one haste perk on specifically Clown is broken.
- We need to look at the potential "least fun" builds for Clown and decide if one haste perk makes it a more serious offender than the potential "least fun builds" on other m1 killers, and if the haste perk specifically is the thing that makes it the "least fun" build for Clown.
- In the event that these problematic m1 perks get nerfed or rebalanced (which looks like a real possibility at this point), it would once again raise the issue that Clown should be able to stack a single haste perk.
- Keep in mind that the stacking of a single haste perk changes the power from 12/14/15/17% invigoration and 17/19/20/22% invigoration at occasional moments throughout the match at the cost of a perk slot. The perks that give 10% haste, such as Machine Learning, Shadowborn (lol), Furtive Chase, Game Afoot, etc. could be considered oppressive on the Clown, but could also be considered oppressive on Blight, Billy, Kaneki, Dracula, Singularity, Spirit, Oni.
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@Elan said:
It was very funny to see Clown moving at 140 % speed. Was meme, but now with buffed save the best for last I feel that Clown is in decent spot.
I do like STBFL before and after buff, but it has the obvious issue of requiring the building of stacks and careful play around the obsession which could change when eating a DS. Other perks like Zanshin and Coup are also nice, but Rapid Brutality specifically worked at the beginning of the match, gave a nice effect, and was reliable. It wasn't a stack system (STBFL, Coup) and it worked on every map (Zanshin is redundant on Midwich, RPD, and other maps with consistent pallet spawns). Of the Clown chase perks, I would argue that while Rapid had the lowest peak performance it was the most simple and consistent effect. Also, Clown players such as myself liked to run STBFL alongside a support perk (primarily PWYF) which is obviously not a playstyle anymore even with the introduction of new STBFL support in CelWit and Dark Arrogance.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Clown was one of the main offenders of oppressive haste stacking and why diminishing returns was needed, and honestly, the buff Singularity got back then where the 3% haste was converted to a speed increase should not have happened at all, there's no good reason he's allowed to bypass it but other killers can't, none of them should be able to
I agree on the Singularity and the multi-stacking Clown. My issue isn't with the Racecar Clown who stacks 4 haste perks. That is a "slop" way to play the killer and degrades his skill expression while being overly oppressive for survivors. I am glad Racecar Clown is gone. I was more concerned with running 1 haste perk alongside the power, which never felt overly oppressive to play as or against.
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I'm a little concerned about the ability to stack window vault speed perks.
Something that myself and a lot of other killer players do is to wait for the item to disappear from a survivor's hand to indicate that they have started the vault animation. This is done primarily to avoid a Dead Hard while we swing to catch the window vault.
However, if a survivor is stacking Resi, Spinechill, and WinOpp for 17.25% faster vault (diminishing return value), we have a smaller time frame to make our decision given that we also have to travel the distance of the lunge as well. Resi is only 9% which is already pretty powerful and Finesse only works when healthy. I am mainly concerned with this specific interaction with Dead Hard faking.
I think it would be better to make this effect only work while healthy or to just remove the vault speed modifier from WinOpp and/or Spinechill.
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Some specific perks I (Clown main) wanted to give feedback on:
Game Afoot, Unbound, Machine Learning, Knock Out, Whispers - Really disappointed that Clown can't use these perks without suffering diminishing returns, but this was addressed in another post and comment.
Nothing But Misery - Again, dim returns for the Clown. Other than that, I'm really glad that we get to see this perk earlier in the trial. I do think it needs to be more potent though. It either needs a third effect or some number tweaks on either the hinder or the vault speed. I'm excited that we're experimenting with a perk that slows vault speed, but it still doesn't feel worth the risk of using a hex totem just for the survivor to maybe or maybe not vault within 15 seconds of being hit and for the 10% to make the difference between whiff and down.
Insidious - Good to see this fun meme perk getting some marginal utility.
Ravenous - Love the change. Still not sure if it is worth hooking every survivor, but I'm excited to experiment.
Dissolution & Blood Favor - Great changes. Stronger M2 killers shouldn't be able to easily use this perk.
Distressing - Any chance we could see a buff to the slowdown numbers? I understand there are some builds where this perk shines, but the terror radius is overall a really bad effect and I'd like to see it actually be usable, especially with perks like Coulro getting nerfed. I know it is targeted towards newer players, but if you really want us to run it on its own I'd like to see it actually be worth it.
Dark Arrogance - I love the design of this perk now, great job to the developers.
Spies from the Shadows - Am I the only one who wanted a slightly longer cooldown? The constant noise notifications from the hook and active chases are quite obnoxious. I do understand this is primarily a perk for new players though, so whatever.
Thrill of the Hunt & Monstrous Shrine - I do think this will shake up the meta, so congratulations on that point.
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Note: I consider this issue relevant, as the 10.2.0 perk changes were promised alongside the 9.6.0 diminishing return changes and the Clown is unable to use some of these perks.
In 9.6.0, Clown players lost access to the ability to use haste perks. Rapid Brutality, PWYF, Batteries Included, Machine Learning, Furtive Chase, etc. were no longer worth running with some being worse than individual addons. I made two lengthy posts at the time, and to broadly summarize what they said:
- Clown should be allowed to stack one haste perk with their power without being affected by diminishing returns. Stacking multiple perks was unhealthy, but the opportunity cost of using one perk to occasionally get a haste boost was fine.
- Clown's addon variety has suffered, as the only way to reasonably increase the haste number now is to run Cheap Gin Bottle or Sticky Soda Bottle. Those of us who liked to run other addons alongside perks like Rapid Brutality or PWYF to maintain a different playstyle while still accumulating higher haste could no longer do so.
- There was no realistic way to buff the Clown in compensation for these changes without lowering the skill ceiling, making him too oppressive, or ruining the rhythm of his gameplay.
- If Houndmaster and Singularity both received changes to the haste parts of their kit to instead make them basekit movement speed adjustments while in search or overclock, then it seems only reasonable that we should look at Clown, Trapper, Knight, and Skull Merchant receiving similar treatments (these killers all gain haste from their powers, as well as Jason who was not released at the time).
I don't see any of the 10.2.0 perk changes as being problematic for the Clown if he was still allowed to stack a singular haste or hinder perk. Clown suffers diminishing returns when using Game Afoot, Unbound, Machine Learning, Hex: Nothing But Misery, Knock Out, Ravenous, and Whispers. It is a shame that Clown can't use these shiny new perks to their fullest effect.
When we were first introduced to idea of dimishing returns, I asked myself why the developers would choose to not give proper care to the Clown or at least state that this power shift for his kit was intentional. It is entirely possible that the developers believe that Clown is a bottleneck for the design of haste perks in this game. Without designing with the Clown in mind, maybe we can have stronger haste perks with more noticeable effects. I do believe there is a portion of the community that believes this as well. The problem with this assumption is that a powerful haste perk that can be used by the Clown can also be used by other killers as well. Let's imagine that the developers thought that the new Unbound was unhealthy for the single haste-stacking Clown. I personally would disagree, given that I have a solid foundation of experience running 5% haste perks on the Clown, but I could definitely see an argument to be made. What makes it unhealthy for the Clown, but healthy for Blight, Billy, Kaneki, Dracula, Singularity, Spirit, Oni, and other oppressive high tier killers? Some of those killers, such as Billy and Kaneki, already use perks and addons that incentivize them to vault windows. I cannot conceive of a haste or hinder perk that is unhealthy on Clown but healthy on the rest of the killer roster.
I would like the developers to seriously consider giving exemptions to the diminishing returns on haste perks to allow the stacking of one haste perk to the Clown, the Skull Merchant, the Trapper, the Knight, and possibly the Slasher as well.