Kharel
Kharel
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- Username
- Kharel
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@Dreamnomad said:
You make it sound like such a small thing to do. That is actually a massive commitment to your time. Even if you are relatively quick, that's like 10 minutes out of each hour.
Yeah, it's not great. I'm not a fan of the system as designed, for sure.
@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3421432#Comment_3421432
and it means if you aren't active and your outposts are they're burning time for minimal passive value.
edit - more and more this is sounding like "deactivate your bases if you aren't online"
Yep, this is what I've found. Fortunately a couple of passes of this is generally enough to prestige any given base, as Seraphor noted here:
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3421432#Comment_3421432
The last few days, I've had my 24hr outposts running constantly, 'refreshing' them twice, maybe three times in that period. That's been more than enouh to guarantee surplus prestige points. So you don't need to do it every hour, twice a day should be fine. If you won't be able to get on twice the next day just take it offline.
In my experience doing the enter/exit trick 2-3 times per prestige level is enough to nearly guarantee a base reaching P10 if it's at all reasonable.
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@Tsulan said:
Capped out on Cells and Parts while still only having 4k Synth...
If this isn´t a issue, then i don´t know what is.
Anyway, good video.
To be fair, not long before this video I did buy a chunk of 20 or so plots. Previously I was sitting at 20k synthite, but it's still my limiting resource by a huge margin. The outposts almost maintain themselves, but not quite. I do have to do a batch of brutals once every couple of days in order to keep 5 outposts alive (plus I just enjoy doing some occasional raiding).
@MadMoeZel said:
i've also recognized this trend but i thought it had to do with keeping your uncleaned raid count low. same outcome, different conclusion
This is entirely possible as well, but most of the people involved in collecting data noticed a hard cutoff of the time raiders started after 1 hour of active raids if they got raids during that timeframe, or 2 hours if they didn't get raids in the first hour (though the vast majority of people got several raids in the first hour). Very, very few raids were observed past the 2 hour mark for any participants.
@Seraphor said:
I imagine it has to do with the whole "promoting outposts with fewer raids thing". As you get raided, your outpost becomes lower priority, and re-entering resets it to zero.
This is quite likely, and as I mentioned in the video may be a result of the change they made to promote outposts that weren't getting frequent raids.
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Worth noting that some of the UI in the open beta heavily implied the existence of trap-, block "class"-, and guard-type limits. For instance, while the open beta had 8 or so traps, the limit was the same number (8 unique trap types). This will severely limit how P2W they can make the game - if they add 20 new trap types that are all overpowered in some circumstances, bases won't be able to jam all of them in, only a subset.
That's not to say they couldn't add an overpowered DLC trap; just that there's going to be limits on how much damage that can do, especially if they stay on top of balancing. I've not played DBD so I don't have much context for how well their balance team handles balancing DLC vs existing content; other people can speculate on that far better than I can.
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@Entchenklein said:
Its kinda frustrating if you have 10 days and then suddenly your base is useless to you
Especially since it will be only 1 day on the highest prestiege mode
As it is right now i basically copy paste my base once it runs out and i dont waste much time on base design a few tweaks here and there but not really finetune my base
I would realy love to do finetuning on my base but as it is now it is kinda wasted time
Worth noting, there's some inaccurate math and/or assumptions in here. A large-pool (4800 genmat, extraction rate is 150/hr) base will stay active for about 2 weeks and will last 32 hours at each prestige level, unless you set it to overdrive or prestige early.
Small genmat-pool plots will last just over a week; the plot selection method from the open beta leaves it up to you whether you want to hit prestige 10 faster or have the base live longer.
I'd argue that while building the perfect base is fun, you can do that in social just fine. The regular "active" mode is designed to test everyone, raiders and builders alike. If one of those two gets to perfect their creations at will for an indefinite length of time (copying it, indefinitely extending the "live" duration, replicating it block-for-block on a new plot with a button press, etc) and the other doesn't get to practice beating that creation without any risk of losing rank, there's a severe capabilities mismatch.
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Rank is an interesting concept, but underutilized like you've mentioned. I'd love to see a sanctuary trophy for reaching certain ranks, maybe with a global rank number on it - it's relatively low-effort, and would be really nice for people who put time into raiding.
Speaking of which, while outposts are kinda-sorta ranked via prestiging, and raiders are ranked via the elo system, there really doesn't appear to be a direct rank system for building or for individual outposts. It's fairly easy to get a prestige 10 outpost; I ended up with several that hit or could have hit P10 over the open beta. With the way rewards for building are tied to the prestige system, that can't really change or get harder without killing builders' rewards even more.
I like the "top 100 maps" concept, though maybe I'd break that up into the top 25 maps in 4 different categories - top kills, top accolades (maybe top accolades in each of the accolade categories?), 25 developer-selected maps, and 25 highest prestige point maps (for tracking the highest combination of kills and accolades).
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@clownkrieger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3353600#Comment_3353600
Havent tried that myself, but you can use 2nd wave holo/lava blocks (they act like solid baserock in first wave) to make a path that vanishes/turns into lava when the genemat is taken, so that harvey has to take an alternative path to get out again (which still has to exist). At least that was my understanding of the false floor bases, just saw short clips of that on yt though.
This is accurate; as long as you have a path of some kind HRV can follow that's longer than the path which uses second-wave holocubes or corrosive cubes in the floor HRV will take the shorter way in if it's walkable, even if that's not what his path shows when editing the base. Once the raider grabs the genmat he'll switch to the longer route.
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@Viktoriusiii said:
Have none of you guys ever played a map-building game?
All your arguments make it sound like none of you did... because everything @Kharel just said does not apply to any of the game I have played. Sure this game is different is a way, but there is no reason why it shouldnt also apply to this one.
Just imagine any of these games with a predesigned path that you could take:
Trackmania (no jumps, no shortcuts, no bounces, no speedchecks and so on)
Super Mario Maker (how would that even work?)
Bloons (I mean they follow a path, but not the player... you still have to beat it before uploading)
It honestly seems like I have landed in a parallel universe where no one knows any of these games... oh well...
I might look at the reddit... maybe people there aren't so obsessed with this ######### dog :'D
The problem is, those games are completely different than MYM (which I've put around 350 hours into, both as a builder and raider though I'd consider myself a better builder than raider).
I've both played and built maps for Trackmania. Trackmania has an entirely separate set of goals, and the mapmaker's goal is not antagonistic to the "raider" (or driver's) goal. As a mapmaker you're trying to make something fun to drive, not necessarily easy to fail constantly and have to reset.
SMM is the best comparison, but it's also a 2D game - the number of dangerous things that can be aimed at you and the possible level complexity are significantly lower; I'm betting maps tend to be significantly shorter than they can get with MYM and the "cheats" the builder could use with holocubes to shortcut the entire process of running the map themselves are apparently quite prevalent.
I've admittedly never seen or played Bloons, but isn't that a tower defense game? That's a very different genre with few similarities to what we're doing here - building a community-made map in that would involve taking the raider's side, not the defender's.
The MYM subreddit seems to mostly have come to the same conclusion, so far as I can tell - apparently the "beat your own base" requirement was tried for some time with Mighty Quest for Epic Loot (a game very similar to MYM), and it resulted in a complete mess, with a huge portion of maps being impossible to complete without a specific movement skill or knowledge of a secret in the map.
In MYM currently, all but the absolute worst killboxes can be "solved" with a little patience with the default gear (which a competent raider will quickly progress beyond), and even the worst killboxes in the hardest maps can be solved with a couple of gear unlocks. That's a good place for the balance to be, I think.
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Personally I think HRV and the limitations he imposes are excellent and necessary for the game.
As a builder, I can kill HRV trivially at the start of a map with a dead man's switch guard and corrosive cube if my intent is to make a maze (though builder beware: from closed beta experience, most raiders absolutely hate mazes; you might get some kills and a lot of people giving up, but accolades aren't going to be your strong suit if you build an extremely difficult labyrinth, and labyrinths typically don't get a lot of kills either).
As a raider, I can kill HRV trivially at the start of a map if I don't want it getting in the way or I know roughly where to go, or if I just want a challenge.
In my experience, so long as HRV can make it to the genmat there is no such thing as an unbeatable base, no matter how many traps and guards or whatever their orientation. There might be bases that are more or less challenging for specific gear sets, and I might not have the gear I need unlocked to beat a given base, but so long as HRV can path to the genmat, I can too. That being the case, HRV's pathing serves a useful, necessary purpose - to make the builder play by some sort of rulebook that the raider understands and can use.
Additionally, consider how boring raiding would get for very skilled raiders if builders have to beat a base themselves to post it online. Not only would building take far, far more time than the already lengthy amount of time it currently takes for relatively low reward compared to raiding, but if you're in the top 1% of raiders you're going to trivially beat anything the remaining 99% of people could put online, regardless of how good at building they might be. That's a great way to bore the most skilled raiders so they stop playing the game, leading to fewer people challenging builders to improve.
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Another example, this one a bit more extreme.
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Back in the closed beta there was an issue that may be relevant; the path break shown was sometimes not where the actual impassable area is. Check the whole intended path, not just the spot showing as broken. Look for places shaped like a |_\ (hard to draw in text - look for places where there's a triangle overhang with no place for HRV to walk except directly through it). Those are your most likely culprit, as HRV can't fit through them.
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I strongly suspect they're leaning towards #3, or at least #2 with purchasable microtransactions being cosmetic-only, plus possible DLCs. I can't talk a whole lot about why due to the NDA from the previous closed beta, but to sum up information available from public sources they've shown off two different playable characters, something like 10 different-looking traps, 3-4 guards, decorations and decals, all that sort of thing.
While many of these (especially cosmetics) would be prime targets for microtransactions for a F2P, in one of their streams they showed them being unlocked and upgraded using a currency the player obtained in-game. During this stream, they looked through a number of menus and at no point was there any mention of or hint at a cash shop. To me, this strongly implies the base game will be B2P with in-game earnable currency to unlock new things.
That obviously doesn't prevent them from adding a paid currency and using it to purchase new things at some point, but I doubt they'll have day-1 purchasable unlocks, as it's unlikely they'd have gone to all the effort of hiding any sign of a cash shop in the stream and trailers they've shown off.
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Being careful to avoid breaking the NDA, but a lot of his complaints stem from 2 things: the awkwardness of watching someone who's not particularly proficient or fast at the game meander through what looks like a particularly easy level, ignoring or easily dealing with most of the poorly-placed defenses, which seem to have been placed to draw attention to the traps and guards and what they do, rather than with any intent to actually kill the player.
There's no sense of urgency in the raid he watched, because the level that was raided provided none. There's no sense of danger, fright, or challenge, because most players can think "I'd have easily avoided that, it's not even a threat", and they'd be right.
I didn't bother to watch his commentary on the level design process; it seemed he had made up his mind about the game within the first few minutes and was just looking for more ways to justify the already-formed opinion.
Quite simply, I don't think that stream he watched showed off the game well at all, and as he pointed out felt very scripted. As a result, the stream made the game feel very awkward and slow. It also looked like they were intentionally turning the camera slowly to avoid motion sickness on the part of viewers, and as a result it made the movement look clunky.
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Adding streaming integration features is expensive and time-consuming, and takes dev time away from feature improvements. Simply paying a few high-profile streamers to stream your game for an evening, however, is fairly cost-effective. Doing a sponsored stream with a moderately-popular streamer who tends to play somewhat similar games, such as CohhCarnage as an example, would be a fairly effective way of spreading the word I'd think.
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Judging by the trailers (can't talk about anything I saw in the closed beta, and the story concepts may have entirely changed anyway since then): the playable characters from the trailer are pretty clearly humanoid, but don't look entirely human-shaped. If they are "human", they're probably heavily modified like the monsters shown (which also look human-ish), because I can't see how you'd fit them into those suit shapes otherwise!
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It's a hard genre to define. There's two main "sides" to the game: the first is an outpost building engine, where you design your outpost, deploy traps and guards, and generally do your best to set up defenses around an objective; the other "side" is a 1-2 player raid system where you raid outposts other people have created and try to get the objective and escape.
Not sure where exactly that falls in terms of genre; I haven't really encountered any other games like it to define a genre.