Adagio_InDminor
Adagio_InDminor
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405628#Comment_3405628
You underestimate what 2 uses can do.
Had a game last night where a successful DH on death hook kept me from dying, and extended the chase long enough for the final 2 gens to pop, leading me to get adrenaline, ultimately ending in a 4 man out. All that because of 1 dead hard, vs me dying with 2 gens left and my team possibly not coming back from it.
DH does not need more uses. Especially with killers confidently swinging now, it’s almost guaranteed value. It hasn’t left my loadout, and it’s still just as strong after the first chase.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, that's a perfect scenario you're outlining there. However I've seen more tunneling off hook than I've seen situations like that. Considering there was no limit before, I don't think a couple extra uses are going to break the game, especially when you don't just "get" them, you have to do things in the game to earn them.
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Well I appreciate your input, even though you're wrong, the devil, and I hate you. :) KIDDING. I understand your opinion completely, I just don't agree with it. Thanks again.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405853#Comment_3405853
I'm more referring to the fact that the effect it gives now is potentially insanely strong. To the tune of lengthening a chase by +50%. That's way too strong to not have any sort of Telegraphing.
How is this different from Overcome? in fact it's worse because getting hit gives deep wound, and Overcome happens even on first chase at the start of the match. I can't tell you how to think, nor would I try, but it just seems to me like you are overvaluing the perk. If you factor in how many times people screw it up, or miss-time it it has way more ways to be ineffective than any other exhaustion perk.
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@FFirebrandd said:
Your suggestion doesn't fix the issues with going against the perk.
Granted neither does Behavior's change, but still.
Agreed. Going against the perk is just waiting or baiting them to waste their use of it. That hasn't changed since ever...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405690#Comment_3405690
You’re not trying to control it from both sides. You’re trying to give DH a massive un-nerf so that it’s way more useful than it currently is. DH should never again have more than 2 uses per game.
……and it really should only be 1 use per game, considering it’s an extra health state and a speed boost combined together.
Compared to what it used to be, you're saying my change is a MASSIVE un-nerf? Going from Infinity attempts, to a max of 6 attempts (and that's if you literally do every gen by yourself, and are the only person rescuing people)
Meanwhile literally every other exhaustion perk is able to be used infinity times. I just don't think it's that drastic. It's also the only exhaustion perk that has a chance of not working as well.
Thanks for your input, I guess I just think it's not that bad. Dead Hard even before this nerf didn't solely break games into survivors favor. I play killer too, so I'm not just coming from a survivor only perspective. If you're bored of seeing it, I understand that, but treating it like it's causing killers to lose the majority of games I just don't see it.
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Heh my only issue is I no longer can use it to save myself from poopy teammates, but honestly of all the changes they made anything healing related wasn't a big deal to me.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405690#Comment_3405690
Yeah, and its unnecessary too since new DH is fine. Its up to you to convince me why I would want your idea.
bHVR's idea is way better, only two tries.
Well then nothing I could say would change your mind, and that's fine. Again, thanks for your input here, appreciated. I just disagree, I think using other exhaustion perks endlessly but this one, just this one, is so game breaking that you can only use it twice doesn't seem valid to me. If you play the game, and earn say... 4 uses instead of 2 that is way less than before this change, but more than we have now which satisfies me.
It's all good though, thanks man.
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@Emeal said:
No, Dead Hard has been out of control for too long, these suggestions would only have merit if DH usage rate fell to 0% which isnt gonna happen. There is absolutely no reason to tempt fate with DH anymore and I think bHVR is tired of having to manage it.
So you're only argument against my change proposal is "DH was out of control" when I'm attempting to control it from both sides of the game while still making it viable and not a tunnel magnet? I mean okay, thanks for the input I guess. I'll just have to agree to disagree.
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@[Deleted User] said:
“Ugh, I only get three health states TWO times a match?!”
This is a disingenuous argument and you probably know it. You're not guaranteed a successful use of Dead Hard, while no matter how many times a survivor can try they will never survive a 3rd hook. :) People can prevent it from happening of course, but once it does nothing stops the removal from match.
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I mean, I see your points but isn't playing "normally" hooking surivors and then defending gens? Who defines what normal is though? Which could also apply against my argument. :) Maybe it's better I call it "the spirit of the game" defending gen progress whilst downing and hooking survivors.
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@Zenislev said:
Nah though. Dead hard is still good as it is. It should have been nuked off the face of the earth, but instead, it got a light little slap on the wrist. The last thing it needs is more potential activations over the course of a match.
Thanks for the input, but I can't agree. 2 attempts per match (not successful uses, just attempts), and possibly encouraging the killer to just tunnel the recently unhooked doesn't seem like a solution that works for both sides. At least my way I'm limiting it's use in match but also providing extra use of it by progressing the match. I do appreciate you weighing in though.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405611#Comment_3405611
Im fine with any suggestion that keeps a earn mechanic to it. I also like that the first chase will not have it in play. Since the first chase can decide the game. So anything that keeps that design. Because when i need to hook to get starting pressure i can't be standing behind the survivor nodding my head for 5 seconds waiting for it. Already invested to much time into the chase already and got a injure to let it go. Either version is honestly fine by me. Yours or current.
Thanks man, I'm glad we have a difference of opinion but that the idea itself isn't terrible in your mind. It makes me feel like I'm attempting to bridge the gap instead of just having tunnel vision of getting a Dead Hard I would want heh.
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Has anyone suggested something similar to Pyramid Head in that if a killer camps a hook after an amount of time the hook drops and respawns somewhere else? It shouldn't work after End Game timer of course. I play killer too and sometimes just securing 1 kill when I've been Seal Team SWF'd is all I can walk away with.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405605#Comment_3405605
Lithe needs a window. Sprint burst you can't be running and manage the 99. Balanced landing you need a fall. Dead hard? You needed to be injured. That was its stipulation for the longest time. You needed to play the game lol. It was really the only one that you had complete control imo. Hell even overcome you have to plan when the killer hits you and if they hit you sooner than you expected half of the burst can be lost. And with the nerf to the hit burst it gives less of a boost now. Dead hard? Didn't matter the map. You didn't have to manage it. You just used it.
Dead Hard you needed to be one hit from down, and pull off a .5 second window during a 2nd hit. Compared to finding a window or pallet, running up a slight hill, and 99ing (or just walking everywhere) It's risk/reward. If people fear Dead Hard so much, why now wouldn't the killer just tunnel the unhooked survivor? The others can't Dead Hard because they haven't been hooked yet. I'm just not a fan. Did you read my suggestion? I'm curious on your opinion about it.
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@supersonic853 said:
It was very called for. The fact survivors die in chase so fast now prove that fact enough. They were used to the 3rd health state to confirm a pallet or loop. The 1st chase of each survivor dead hard became a non factor. Which makes chases feel immensely better. Now you can use it as a anti tunnel to that doesn't deactivate when doing gens. But it will never pop up in the first chases. (Which pretty much can decide the game) as time goes on people will learn new strategies. Dead hard after its rework became the perk which you had full control with little drawback when it was available. Why run any other exhaustion?
Anti-tunnel? The killer can hit you right off the hook which puts you in deep wound unable to use it. If he then downs you, whoops there goes one of your two attempts to use a perk during the match. It's almost promoting tunneling "just in case"
Full control with little drawback? Like Lithe? Balanced? 99ing Sprint Burst? I'm not saying Dead Hard didn't need to be re-worked but your suggestions here aren't valid reasons to support it. At least in my proposal above I'm still limiting how much it appears in the match, and forcing people to play/progress the game to "earn" it's use.
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Anyone willing to debate/discuss Dead Hard I would appreciate your input on my idea in the thread I'm linking below. That being said, having it only get used when it works would be okay in my book if you continued to only get 2 uses of it, but I still don't like that concept. I think it would be better if people could earn some extra "attempts" (that a killer could bait/wait out) of it in a match by progressing the match.
I do agree that getting to use a perk twice, when you can use all other exhaustion perks as much as you possibly can seems wrong to me. With my idea there's no endless meme'ing, no unearned DH's frustrating the crap out of the killer, you only get what you put into the game.
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TheycallmeLix / Fussy, can you read my thread I'm linking below and give me opinions on what I suggest for changing Dead Hard? I sincerely think it's caters to both concepts of what people think Dead Hard should be, without allowing it to become a game/mood killing bore.
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@Spectralfx said:
I'm a killer main and I agree that op's reworked DH ideas could work. But there is a caveat to this.
For example, some minor nerfs to the survivor's tool kit in other areas... but also some straight up buffs for killers in certain areas that were previously destroyed for no valid reasons (Hill Billy! Look at what they did to my boi! Legion, trapper and pig!)
Ultimately, 35% pick rate for DH was unreasonable. DH and CoH HAD TO GO.
But yeah, rework DH all you want! But if survivors start to auto-include it then no... nerf it then.
CoH... hell nah, get that out in the forever box stat.
Actually your wording here makes me want to clarify something. It shouldn't be based upon total gen completion, it should be the "time" similar to Flashbang and Blast Mine. That way 2 people working on a gen completing it don't get a full charge of Dead Hard. Using Prove thyself won't get it faster for you either, and god forbid dumping a Brand New Part into a gen doesn't get you on your way to being able to use it.
To your point about "auto-include" I understand what you're saying but think of it this way... no one would just take it to meme all match, or to run the killer endlessly etc... they have to EARN it through playing the game. So... even if everyone did take it, wouldn't that either go unused, or benefit the natural flow of the game?
Thanks everyone for keeping the debate/suggestion alive, I appreciate the support AND critique I really want it to better the game, not just "get what I want" if that makes sense heh.
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I personally like my suggestion better, take a look and comment on it good or ill:
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@MikeyBoi said:
I like this a lot. The usage of DH is in between what you’re saying and what DH currently is but not as strong pre nerf.
Yeah that's what I was aiming for. Something a little better but not vastly overpowered or exploitable. All while promoting the natural flow of the game. Thanks for commenting, I appreciate that more people like it instead of me thinking I'm on crazy pills. :)
@Coffeecrashing said:
It’s a shame that BHVR partially un-nerfed Dead Hard, and it’s still going to be awful and unfun to deal with.
I had to remove all the generator kicking regression perks from my loadouts, and Dead Hard should have gotten the original PTB nerf, so it can be just as awful as the generator kicking perks are now.
I play killer too, and really my biggest "ugh" moment is the first discovery that they are running it. After that (or if I even 'pre-test') all I have to do is bait the Dead hard and then it's a down. It's really not that inconvenient for me. Only when I make the mental mistake to not check, which IMO is on me.
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@devotedDBDenjoyer said:
I mean, I don't hate it, but tbh just because streamers like it doesn't give it more validity to be added. If they want to add it, they will, unfortunately. You also have to take into account streamers could've just been nice to your idea and don't think it's that amazing of a change.
Understood, that's why I prefaced that with "I know this means nothing" :) I do honestly believe they thought positively about it, not just blowing smoke.
edit: Oh I missed a part, it's not supposed to be amazing really, it's just meant to give it a little more than it currently is without going overboard. It encourages playing/progressing the game while rewarding with uses.
Thanks for weighing in on it though, I appreciate opinions/constructive criticisms.
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Why hasn't this been killswitched? It's utterly riculous!