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Vecna gameplay show a possibility for Knight (rework)

Rickprado Rickprado
in Feedback and Suggestions

Hi! Hope everyone is doing fine.

I am playing Vecna these days and could not notice how "similar" the spells and the Knight's guards are: its like different powers in one killers (although the Knight Guards are far more similar among them than Vecna's spells).

What if the Knight had a system just like Vecna, where he could select a guard having individual cooldowns for every guard (like 15s each)? At the start i was against the Knight having the ability to choose a guard because of how the "sequence" is part of his learning curve - a good Knight player should have in mind the sequence of guards and how will use them - but i feel Knight would be so much more pleasant to play if he could just select his guards as Vecna select his spells, according to the moment of the match needs.

Jailer is said to be the useless guard but most of this come from the fact that he is better used as a tracking tool than a chasing tool and sometimes you have to "waste" jailer into something to draw a Carnifex or the assassin. But this would go away if you could choose jailer only when you need more tracking or you are uncertain where the survivors are. Same for the other two guards.

Of course, this alone wouldn't fix the all the problems the Knight has, but would be a nice addition.

Fellow Knight mains, whats your thought on this?

Comments

  • Emeal Emeal

    You need to explain why Knight needs a rework first. and then we need to discuss all the ways this can turn into OP town.

  • Ohyakno Ohyakno

    You'd never use any guard but carnifex.

  • Archol123 Archol123

    @Ohyakno said:

    You'd never use any guard but carnifex.

    Maybe that leads to the why, which is more often than not because he is much better… Which leads to why are we not changing that and making the others more usefull as well?

  • Ohyakno Ohyakno

    @Archol123 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737187#Comment_3737187

    Maybe that leads to the why, which is more often than not because he is much better… Which leads to why are we not changing that and making the others more usefull as well?

    Dunno. There's a lot of stuff you can do. Here's some ideas:

    Carnifex can perform two break actions during a single patrol.

    Assassin banner is invisible beyond 8(?) meters.

    Jailer patrols faster, has a longer path and reveals the first survivor chased's aura when they are first detected in addition to the aura of any survivor within his ring during chase.

    Jailer seems a little overloaded but realistically he's never getting a hit so I think it's best good info is very good.

  • Archol123 Archol123

    @Emeal said:

    You need to explain why Knight needs a rework first. and then we need to discuss all the ways this can turn into OP town.

    Because the killer is annoying to go against, buggy as hell and could need many changes to make him more pleasant to go against and play as. I mean sure, the issue could be that carnifex shreds through pallets everytime and you just get a hit. But isn't the main issue with that just that the other guards just don't feel worth it.

  • Archol123 Archol123

    @Rickprado said:

    Hi! Hope everyone is doing fine.

    I am playing Vecna these days and could not notice how "similar" the spells and the Knight's guards are: its like different powers in one killers (although the Knight Guards are far more similar among them than Vecna's spells).

    What if the Knight had a system just like Vecna, where he could select a guard having individual cooldowns for every guard (like 15s each)? At the start i was against the Knight having the ability to choose a guard because of how the "sequence" is part of his learning curve - a good Knight player should have in mind the sequence of guards and how will use them - but i feel Knight would be so much more pleasant to play if he could just select his guards as Vecna select his spells, according to the moment of the match needs.

    Jailer is said to be the useless guard but most of this come from the fact that he is better used as a tracking tool than a chasing tool and sometimes you have to "waste" jailer into something to draw a Carnifex or the assassin. But this would go away if you could choose jailer only when you need more tracking or you are uncertain where the survivors are. Same for the other two guards.

    Of course, this alone wouldn't fix the all the problems the Knight has, but would be a nice addition.

    Fellow Knight mains, whats your thought on this?

    That should have done that from the beginning and I have no clue why they did not. The guards could have been similar to Vecnas power in their purpose and and not just numbers changes between basically the same thing.

  • Archol123 Archol123

    @Ohyakno said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737228#Comment_3737228

    Dunno. There's a lot of stuff you can do. Here's some ideas:

    Carnifex can perform two break actions during a single patrol.

    Assassin banner is invisible beyond 8(?) meters.

    Jailer patrols faster, has a longer path and reveals the first survivor chased's aura when they are first detected in addition to the aura of any survivor within his ring during chase.

    Jailer seems a little overloaded but realistically he's never getting a hit so I think it's best good info is very good.

    I don't know if two break actions is a good idea. To be begin with you should be able to just let the guard do the action without drawing the path within lets say 10 m or so…

  • Rickprado Rickprado

    @Emeal said:

    You need to explain why Knight needs a rework first. and then we need to discuss all the ways this can turn into OP town.

    This was already discussed a lot on this forum. Its close to a consensus that Knight has some issues like gamebreaking bugs, silly counterplay, some cheese strats and addon dependancy and its on the weaker end of the killer rooster.

    As being OP, i don't think so. It would be the same as the Knight but with a faster depoly of the desired guard. Today we can do this by popping a guard, hit and get to other one, but its so boring to do this that its easier just to deploy the "wrong one" and just do the chase the way its possible.

    Edit: I've made a topic on some suggested changes for the Knight were i deeply discuss his problems and how i would solve them.

    @Rickprado said:

    After playing for some time with the Knight (i've been playing him constantly since March) , i've come to understand that although this killer can be quite fun and have a very good visual, it has some problems. In order to adress some of these problem, i have some suggestions. Please, consider this topic as an open debate about the Knight current status as a suggestion for a rework.

    I will point the issue and the propose a solution:

    • Bugged AI

    The guards have several bugs in their AI, becoming stuck in parts of the map, going in very strange paths to chase a survivor right in front of them, refusing to pass through windows or pallets to catch a survivor, going all the way around, wasting the hunt.

    Of course those bugs needs to be adressed ASAP so we can have a better experience while playing the Knight.

    • Addon dependancy

    Playing Knight without some addons is a bad experience. There is three addons that i would say are obligatory on him (in order of importance): Map of The Realm, Call to Arms and Dried Horsemeat.

    Map of the Realm (MotR) makes the detection range of your guards bigger. Playing without MotR feels terrible: even when you predict correctly the path that a survivor will make, he/she can dodge a guard easily because of the small detection radious Carnifex and the Assassin have (Jailer can counter this a bit).

    Call to Arms (CtA) is what the turns Knight viable against good survivors: The increased speed and range can make you have time to listen and think where the survivors are going; make easier to pressure survivors through the map (while they are healing or doing gens); etc. Knight with Call to Arms is just another killer in terms of strength and map pressure.

    Dried Horsemeat is mostly used to make your guards last enough to you do a pincer move on a survivor, specially with the Jailer which has lower speed than the Assassin and Hunt Duration than the Carnifex. Dried Horsemeat can also be used to "snipe" someone at long range, on a generator or healing, as the extra 4s can make the difference between a hit or not

    Since these addons are so essencial to the Knight to fix his weakness, mostly of the other addons are rarely used, as if you don't have a good chance to detect a survivor with a guard, you will become just a M1 killer with no power.

    My suggestion for this are: Make the Map of the Realm extra detection range basekit, so we can explore more of the Knight addons; change the basekit speed of patrol mode to be the same as when using Call to Arms addons, and leave it as addon for extra range on patrols.

    For the Dried Horsemeat, i would suggest something: rework completly this addon and make the extra hunt time tied to total patrol path distance, gaining 1s from 10m total path to 4s at 32m total path. This would incentive Knight players to play more strategically with their power, rewarding then to predict where survivors will go instead of just dropping a guard into a loop (i will talk about that later)

    • Three Gening

    Knight can be quite annoying while holding a three gen, specially when they are very close to each other. To resolve this issue i propose that you can no longer kick a gen with a guard while using patrol mode - you still can break pallets. This way, if you want to protect a gen with a guard, you would be forced to start a hunt instead of holding it by kicking.

    To compensate this, i would give Knight a secondary power:

    Guardia Order

    When you are up to 16m of a Brekable Wall/Generator/pallet, press the secondary power button to give the guard an order to kick gen/break the pallet. Your order will be directed towards the object which is mostly centered on your screen - highlighted with green. You cannot use your power or Guardia Order while a guard is executing an order or while your power is in cooldown.

    This way, Knight could save some time giving orders to guards instead of having to go in patrol mode, but could not use this to hold a generator "hostage" from afar.

    • The Guards utility / The Hold W counter

    Although i can understand that every guard is tied to a playstile (Carnifex brute force; Assassin fast hits; Jailer scouting + anti-stealth) i think most of the Knight players will agree that the guards that are better in hunts (Carnifex and Assassin) are the guards which most make a difference in a match. Although Jailer can be crucial to get a hunt against a stealth survivor, his speed and chase duration makes him kinda lackluster when compared to the other two.

    Also, another thing that happens with all the guards is that even when the Knight finds the survivors and gets a hunt successfully, if the surv is in a safe loop or have window/pallet to jump, you will be only wasting your time, as he/she can get away from the loop and the guard before you even have the chance to zone them.

    To resolve this kinda of problem, i would suggest these changes:

    Whenever a guard is actively hunting a survivor, the Knight will get a 3 to 5% haste bonus (tied to total patrol path distance) until the hunt ends.

    If a Carnifex is hunting a survivor, the Knight gets 10% longer lunge and 10% pallet break speed;

    If the Assassin is hunting a survivor, the Knight jumps through a window 15% faster;

    If the Jailer is hunting, every survivor within 4m of the Jailer have his/hers aura revelead to the Knight for 2s. Also, the Jailer would chase with a 4.2m/s speed for 18s seconds, having the same detection range as the other guards (considering that Map of The Realm would be basekit).

    • Dropping a guard into a loop

    As far i understand that this can be countered in some ways, just dropping a guard into a loop is part of what makes the Knight boring to face, as some people say (i don't totally agree). To adress this - considering all the buffs above - i would put a restriction on the minimum distance the Knight would be able to drop a guard: you have to draw at least 10m of path to deploy a guard. Until you haven't drawn 10m of patrol path, you can end patrol mode; if the patrol times end and you haven't drawn at least 10m of patrol path, your power enters in a cooldown, no guard is deployed and you can't use your power for 3 seconds.

    This would force Knight to play more strategically than just dropping a guard into a loop everytime.

    Well, thats all for now. I really LOVE the idea of this Killer (power and visual) and i really want this game to improve and get to a healthier state.

    Lets discuss! Hope you guys are fine!! Thanks

    @Ohyakno said:

    You'd never use any guard but carnifex.

    Well, at least i would use all the guards: Assassin for ranged snipes, Carnifex for some chases and Jailer when i need info or to hold an area. Also, keep in mind that with individual cooldowns you wouldn't be able to just spam a single guard, but would need to circle at least between two of them.

    @Archol123 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416888/vecna-gameplay-show-a-possibility-for-knight-rework

    That should have done that from the beginning and I have no clue why they did not. The guards could have been similar to Vecnas power in their purpose and and not just numbers changes between basically the same thing.

    I can understand what the devs have thought in the release, but seeing how Vecna plays it feels a much better design than the Knight original one. Also it would fit better his theme as his lore, as the guards are his loyal servants, each of them fulling a specific role inside his army.

  • Emeal Emeal

    @Rickprado said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737182#Comment_3737182

    This was already discussed a lot on this forum. Its close to a consensus that Knight has some issues like gamebreaking bugs, silly counterplay, some cheese strats and addon dependancy and its on the weaker end of the killer rooster.

    As being OP, i don't think so. It would be the same as the Knight but with a faster depoly of the desired guard. Today we can do this by popping a guard, hit and get to other one, but its so boring to do this that its easier just to deploy the "wrong one" and just do the chase the way its possible.

    Edit: I've made a topic on some suggested changes for the Knight were i deeply discuss his problems and how i would solve them.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/390781/a-suggested-rework-buff-for-the-knight

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737187#Comment_3737187

    Well, at least i would use all the guards: Assassin for ranged snipes, Carnifex for some chases and Jailer when i need info or to hold an area. Also, keep in mind that with individual cooldowns you wouldn't be able to just spam a single guard, but would need to circle at least between two of them.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737251#Comment_3737251

    I can understand what the devs have thought in the release, but seeing how Vecna plays it feels a much better design than the Knight original one. Also it would fit better his theme as his lore, as the guards are his loyal servants, each of them fulling a specific role inside his army.

    Consensus? My guy your post has 3 upvotes. You call that consensus?

  • Rickprado Rickprado

    @Emeal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737261#Comment_3737261

    Consensus? My guy your post has 3 upvotes. You call that consensus?

    " I've made a topic on some suggested changes for the Knight were i deeply discuss his problems" ← The topic is where i discuss most of the Knight's problem, raised with other Knight players, not where the consensus is shown.

    I'm not saying that my suggestions for rework is a consensus. It just some ideas on how to change that i gave. I don't take this topic as a consensus, its just discussion the problems of this killer. Sorry, but you didn't understood my point.

    Ask killers who play the Knight (or used to play) and i assure most of them agree that Knight need at least SOME CHANGES and Quaility of Life, specially on the utility of every guard and their

  • Ohyakno Ohyakno

    @Rickprado said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737182#Comment_3737182

    This was already discussed a lot on this forum. Its close to a consensus that Knight has some issues like gamebreaking bugs, silly counterplay, some cheese strats and addon dependancy and its on the weaker end of the killer rooster.

    As being OP, i don't think so. It would be the same as the Knight but with a faster depoly of the desired guard. Today we can do this by popping a guard, hit and get to other one, but its so boring to do this that its easier just to deploy the "wrong one" and just do the chase the way its possible.

    Edit: I've made a topic on some suggested changes for the Knight were i deeply discuss his problems and how i would solve them.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/390781/a-suggested-rework-buff-for-the-knight

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737187#Comment_3737187

    Well, at least i would use all the guards: Assassin for ranged snipes, Carnifex for some chases and Jailer when i need info or to hold an area. Also, keep in mind that with individual cooldowns you wouldn't be able to just spam a single guard, but would need to circle at least between two of them.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737251#Comment_3737251

    I can understand what the devs have thought in the release, but seeing how Vecna plays it feels a much better design than the Knight original one. Also it would fit better his theme as his lore, as the guards are his loyal servants, each of them fulling a specific role inside his army.

    Ranged snipes don't do anything. If the survivor throws a pallet or vaults a window the assassin will never catch up.

    Jailer for.... Info? Holding an area? That's nonsense. If you're randomly plopping him out to try and find survivors, he's not going to do anything and you're going to have to either not have a power for the patrol duration which is forever or trundle back over to him and hit him which is a huge time waste. If he's "holding an area" you're out a power for any survivors you might spot on top of survivors just advancing their objective elsewhere.

    All the other guards are just pathetic compared to carnifex. The chase duration for the others is too short to effectively herd survivors where you want them to go and their utility is middling at best.

  • Rickprado Rickprado

    @Ohyakno said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737261#Comment_3737261

    Ranged snipes don't do anything. If the survivor throws a pallet or vaults a window the assassin will never catch up.

    Jailer for.... Info? Holding an area? That's nonsense. If you're randomly plopping him out to try and find survivors, he's not going to do anything and you're going to have to either not have a power for the patrol duration which is forever or trundle back over to him and hit him which is a huge time waste. If he's "holding an area" you're out a power for any survivors you might spot on top of survivors just advancing their objective elsewhere.

    All the other guards are just pathetic compared to carnifex. The chase duration for the others is too short to effectively herd survivors where you want them to go and their utility is middling at best.

    In my experience, this is not true.

    Although its not always a guaranteed hit, with Dried Horsemeat the assassin can catch up survivors. They won't be always near a pallet or a window to avoid the assassin.

    For the Jailer, there are times where you know more or less where the survivors are but you cannot be sure, so you send the jailer in a route where you can intercept them, specially in the corners. Also, for holding an area, you can use the jailer to protect some gens or the path to a hooked person. Since he gets a big range with Map of the Realm, you can spot people while they are traversing the map.

    Anyway, although i believe Carnifex is a very good guard, the other two can have their uses too.

  • Emeal Emeal

    Hey look at that: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/455-developer-update-june-2024

  • lettuchia lettuchia

    @Rickprado said:

    Hi! Hope everyone is doing fine.

    I am playing Vecna these days and could not notice how "similar" the spells and the Knight's guards are: its like different powers in one killers (although the Knight Guards are far more similar among them than Vecna's spells).

    What if the Knight had a system just like Vecna, where he could select a guard having individual cooldowns for every guard (like 15s each)? At the start i was against the Knight having the ability to choose a guard because of how the "sequence" is part of his learning curve - a good Knight player should have in mind the sequence of guards and how will use them - but i feel Knight would be so much more pleasant to play if he could just select his guards as Vecna select his spells, according to the moment of the match needs.

    Jailer is said to be the useless guard but most of this come from the fact that he is better used as a tracking tool than a chasing tool and sometimes you have to "waste" jailer into something to draw a Carnifex or the assassin. But this would go away if you could choose jailer only when you need more tracking or you are uncertain where the survivors are. Same for the other two guards.

    Of course, this alone wouldn't fix the all the problems the Knight has, but would be a nice addition.

    Fellow Knight mains, whats your thought on this?

    I appreciate that you recognize that each guard should have it's own cooldown along with this instead of just being a flat buff, unlike other suggestions I've seen 😒. Still, I feel like this is something unique to knight and doing this would make him too similar to Vecna

  • Rickprado Rickprado

    @Emeal said:

    Hey look at that:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/455-developer-update-june-2024

    Yeah, they really read the forums. Lets see how this will work on the PTB

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