9.2.0 PTB assessment. (DISCLAIMER: Plenty of these points were made with lack of understanding.)

a_2can

SLUGGING REDUCTION UPDATE:

1. Built in No Mither recovery. (Pause the 90 seconds while carrying other downed survivors. Otherwise balanced.)

TUNNELLING REDUCTION UPDATE:

1. No unhook notification shown or hook status unless it is endgame. (Killers have a harder time locating survivors at higher ranks and it makes hook camping reasonable for securing downs.)
2. Unhooked survivors lose collision until endgame. (Can’t body block for other Survivors with unhook endurance as Killers return to hook for 90% of the match.)
3. Killers get bonuses for not tunnelling. (Negating the usage of obsession perks and unbalanced gameplay in favor of casual Killers.)
4. Survivors gain bonuses for early deaths. (Once again negating the usage of obsession perks and unbalanced gameplay all in favor of survivors. Unrewarding for proper Killer gameplay.)
5. Hooked survivors sacrificed/killed negate Killer gen regression. (Once again unrewarding for proper killer gameplay.)
6. Redundancy to play weak killers. (People enjoy the accomplishment of effectively playing underwhelming Killers but with these changes being made, I don’t see certain Killers being viable at all.)

THE SHAPE:

1. Stalker Mode + Pursuer Mode. (Evil Within benefits that were built up through tiers are now available always.)
2. Evil Incarnate. (On top of being another one hit “dashslop” killer, The Shape now has built-in Tombstone for each survivor.)
3. Resemblance to The Pig. (The Shape’s new moveset is a direct copy of The Pig’s without Reverse Bear Traps and an overall improvement to her.)

PERK UPDATES:

1. Perk ideas lessening. (With many perk benefits becoming available to Survivors base kit, the ingenuity of BHVR will further decline. They’re still going strong with perk additions but these changes can affect that.)

Thanks for trying to appeal to your community BHVR. But the upcoming content (excluding slugging reduction) isn’t going to sit well with players of all grades. Matches are winnable for both sides (Survivors and Killer) under average ping and none of us would want to change that to such an extreme.

drsoontm

At first glance, I don’t like these changes.

But honestly, I don’t really care: I’m on a hiatus. I got fed up with the gen rushes and the constant bugs. I only know about the update because of a YouTuber.

Whenever I come back, if the crybaby role has gotten even more “second chances” (at what point do we stop calling them second?) and more rewards for playing badly, I’ll just move on for good.

I’ve got too many games on Steam anyway. I should work on that backlog.

Rick1998

@Foggyguy said:

Lol nah, it'll probably be what saves the game. Unless you've been living under a rock killer ques are abysmal because fewer and fewer people play survivor and if anything could kill this game it's waiting a long time to actually get into a game.

destroying the killer role is not the way to fix it . They will just leave the game instead of swapping sides. Survivor gamepley can be very boring specially in solo queue so no ammount of buffs will ever make it bareable to queue for solo survivor .

a_2can

@Negative_Xero said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/454888/9-2-0-ptb-and-why-it-ll-ruin-the-game

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just giving tips to make it easier to counter your claims.

1.Pausing the slug timer wouldn't matter if you only slugged that person to go after someone trying to flashlight save. It shouldn't take you 90 seconds to hook one survivor, then go back and pick up the other unless they crawl away and hide. In that circumstance, just run Deerstalker.

2. Assuming Scourge Hook: Floods of Rage isn't changed in the perk updates, you'll still see survivor auras once they're unhooked, so you'll know when they got unhooked. Combine that with Scourge Hook: Jagged Compass and all unhooks will trigger Floods of Rage. Same thing goes for Furtive Chase. If it's not changed, the obsession moving from the person you hooked to another survivor tells you that they got unhooked.

3. Unhooked survivors losing collision isn't until endgame, it's temporary with a timer or when that survivor performs a conspicuous action (Repairing, healing, unhooking, ETC. just like DS) While I do agree that the ability to no longer body block prevents protection hits, that also means that killers can't body block that survivor to wait out the endurance. I think it's a fair trade.

4. Rewarding killers for not tunneling doesn't really affect obsession perks. The only obsession perks where the obsession being dead matters are Dying Light, Remember Me, and Rancor. And if you're killing the obsession with Rancor or relying on Remember Me, all gens have already been completed anyway. Sure, this is a nerf to Dying Light, but that perk gets used so little, that it was due for a buff/rework anyway. Plus, DBD is not supposed to be a competitive game unless you're on a competitive team. Why do you think there's no ranked mode like in other PvP games? Alas, that's another can of worms altogether. Rewarding killers for being casual just means that the only people not having fun are the people who would ruin other people's fun. Toxic bully squad survivors will get their day of reckoning eventually. Just wait until there's another incident like there was in Korea that one time. Once something happens to BHVR, they'll fix it quick. That's why ista-blind flashlights and hackers crashing custom lobbies don't exist anymore.

5. What are you considering as normal killer gameplay if survivors getting rewarded for someone dying before the killer has 6 hooks is a bad thing? That literally just punishes Sadako players who abuse condemned, Pyramid Head players who Final Judgement someone just because they have the ability to, your average tunneler, or Tombstone Myers, and that's probably going away with the rework.

6. I do agree with the negated gen regression being bad, but for another reason. I foresee that this will incentivize survivors to just leave the first survivor to get hooked on hook to get the repair boost for as fast as possible. I don't look forward to that as either killer or survivor. But if survivors do rescue them, the only reason the negated gen regression would be a problem is if you camp or tunnel them. Which again, is not really normal killer gameplay.

7. I can only think of three types of people who play weak killers. People who play them because they like them, people who play them as a challenge, and people who play them specifically for the adept (Achievement hunters) The game has never been about viability. If it was, the term "Top tier killer/build" wouldn't exist. All perks and killers would be just as powerful as the others. In fact, this just makes the accomplishment of winning with underwhelming killers feel better. Since they were made weaker by this update, that makes the challenge of using them harder, therefore making it more satisfying to win. Why do you think Soulsbourne players love that franchise so much?

8. I do agree that Dashslop Myers was a little much, but I love everything else about it. Call me biased because Myers is my main killer, but this is the buff he's desperately needed for years (Minus the dash attack, I can do without that.) He's more versatile now, and as long as they leave scratched mirror alone, I'll be happy. I don't use Tombstone or Infinite Tier 3 because I avoid using anything that I hate to go against when I'm playing survivor. Base-kit Tombstone is fine too. Because it's downgraded. Again, I'm biased because my second main is Pyramid Head and it feels a lot like that since survivors have to be on death hook for you to use the new base-kit Tombstone. Just make sure you're at six hook states before you do it to avoid anti-tunnel.

@4thdslip said:

Gonna go through this piece by piece…

1. I agree with your opinion about pausing the timer while other survivors are being carried. I also think it should be slowed when other survivors are within 12 meters, maybe 8, due to the fact that they can be saved in that situation.
2. Killers now have a weaker version of BBQ and Chili basekit that shows the survivors you've hooked less than or equal to the person you just hooked. You'll get information for roughly every single hook that you perform.
3. This point is directly untrue, as Elusive turns off with conspicuous actions and will almost certainly have the same 10 second timer used for the basekit haste and endurance effect, unless you're running OTR (in which, like the endurance, its buffed to 80 seconds). You'll never reach endgame with perma-unhook Elusive, anyways.
4. The negating use of Obsession perks only applies to Dark Devotion, as Wretched Fate and Dying Light do very little for the Obsession (Dying Light even BUFFS the Obsession), and every other killer Obsession perk (minus one - Remember Me) switches the Obsession, which falls in line with the line of thinking for anti-tunnel. Remember Me's best partner is No Way Out, which requires you to hook every single survivor anyways, and already disincentivizes tunnelling due to the fact that you have to hit the Obsession 5 times - meaning they have to get healed at some point before you can attack them again.
5. Survivors gain bonuses if killers continue to tunnel, but killers do get additional buffs if they do not tunnel, including mini-Pop, haste, and again, mini-Chili. Read previous point for why the Obsession perk thing actually means nothing.
6. If a survivor is killed before the 6th hook, then yes, it stops the regression or blocking. You can kill at the 7th hook, which means that if you hook a survivor first, third, and then mori them after the 6th hook, you don't get this effect.
7. These are buffs in hopes of allowing people to play weaker killers. Base kit regression and aura reading allows those weaker killers to free up slots in their kits to put other things that may be useful. I do know I'm very happy to have my Surge back on Michael in place of Pop.
8. Combining all your Michael points into one, as someone who plays him and Billy (another OHKO dash killer), I don't feel like they're very similar at all! Michael has OHKO Demo Shred now, which greatly increases his ability to outplay loops without bloodlust or having to leave the chase. I assume, much like Oni, his Evil Incarnate mode will be triggered on command, so there will still be all the fun of popping T3 behind a survivor and lunging directly at them for the down. tl;dr on this: Michael is actually more like Demo and Oni now, and it's really nice without changing anything of what makes Michael enjoyable.
9. The only perk that is becoming basekit is a reduced version of OTR's lack of grunts, blood, scratch marks, and aura reading. A bunch of perks are getting changed, though.

While I think parts of the anti-tunnelling changes will not go live (the 6 hook requirement for killing as well as its downside, and the survivor buffs to gen speeds), I do think a lot of this is actually good for the game.

I understand my points appear vague considering the counter arguments given. As a disclaimer, I understand Obsession perks aren’t “negated”. I used that terminology to keep my explanation short. In actuality, there are only a small portion of obsession perks that are affected by tunnelling reduction and I understand they’ll probably fix them in future. But I can’t guarantee these specific perks (and others) won’t be changed to better suit the updates. Upon first inspection, the tunnelling reduction was also vague for me if you couldn’t tell and after a reevaluation, I can confidently say the survivor and killer benefits in conjunction with one another work well for game preformance. If my previous evaluation was far from reality, I apologize for my lack of understanding as well as how harsh my assessment came off. I still believe Micheal is fitting more-so into the dash killer archetype than the stalk killer archetype alongside his built in Memento Mori being an issue though. But with an open mind, I don’t think he directly copies from The Pig’s moveset anymore.

a_2can

@Negative_Xero said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/454888/9-2-0-ptb-and-why-it-ll-ruin-the-game

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just giving tips to make it easier to counter your claims.

1.Pausing the slug timer wouldn't matter if you only slugged that person to go after someone trying to flashlight save. It shouldn't take you 90 seconds to hook one survivor, then go back and pick up the other unless they crawl away and hide. In that circumstance, just run Deerstalker.

2. Assuming Scourge Hook: Floods of Rage isn't changed in the perk updates, you'll still see survivor auras once they're unhooked, so you'll know when they got unhooked. Combine that with Scourge Hook: Jagged Compass and all unhooks will trigger Floods of Rage. Same thing goes for Furtive Chase. If it's not changed, the obsession moving from the person you hooked to another survivor tells you that they got unhooked.

3. Unhooked survivors losing collision isn't until endgame, it's temporary with a timer or when that survivor performs a conspicuous action (Repairing, healing, unhooking, ETC. just like DS) While I do agree that the ability to no longer body block prevents protection hits, that also means that killers can't body block that survivor to wait out the endurance. I think it's a fair trade.

4. Rewarding killers for not tunneling doesn't really affect obsession perks. The only obsession perks where the obsession being dead matters are Dying Light, Remember Me, and Rancor. And if you're killing the obsession with Rancor or relying on Remember Me, all gens have already been completed anyway. Sure, this is a nerf to Dying Light, but that perk gets used so little, that it was due for a buff/rework anyway. Plus, DBD is not supposed to be a competitive game unless you're on a competitive team. Why do you think there's no ranked mode like in other PvP games? Alas, that's another can of worms altogether. Rewarding killers for being casual just means that the only people not having fun are the people who would ruin other people's fun. Toxic bully squad survivors will get their day of reckoning eventually. Just wait until there's another incident like there was in Korea that one time. Once something happens to BHVR, they'll fix it quick. That's why ista-blind flashlights and hackers crashing custom lobbies don't exist anymore.

5. What are you considering as normal killer gameplay if survivors getting rewarded for someone dying before the killer has 6 hooks is a bad thing? That literally just punishes Sadako players who abuse condemned, Pyramid Head players who Final Judgement someone just because they have the ability to, your average tunneler, or Tombstone Myers, and that's probably going away with the rework.

6. I do agree with the negated gen regression being bad, but for another reason. I foresee that this will incentivize survivors to just leave the first survivor to get hooked on hook to get the repair boost for as fast as possible. I don't look forward to that as either killer or survivor. But if survivors do rescue them, the only reason the negated gen regression would be a problem is if you camp or tunnel them. Which again, is not really normal killer gameplay.

7. I can only think of three types of people who play weak killers. People who play them because they like them, people who play them as a challenge, and people who play them specifically for the adept (Achievement hunters) The game has never been about viability. If it was, the term "Top tier killer/build" wouldn't exist. All perks and killers would be just as powerful as the others. In fact, this just makes the accomplishment of winning with underwhelming killers feel better. Since they were made weaker by this update, that makes the challenge of using them harder, therefore making it more satisfying to win. Why do you think Soulsbourne players love that franchise so much?

8. I do agree that Dashslop Myers was a little much, but I love everything else about it. Call me biased because Myers is my main killer, but this is the buff he's desperately needed for years (Minus the dash attack, I can do without that.) He's more versatile now, and as long as they leave scratched mirror alone, I'll be happy. I don't use Tombstone or Infinite Tier 3 because I avoid using anything that I hate to go against when I'm playing survivor. Base-kit Tombstone is fine too. Because it's downgraded. Again, I'm biased because my second main is Pyramid Head and it feels a lot like that since survivors have to be on death hook for you to use the new base-kit Tombstone. Just make sure you're at six hook states before you do it to avoid anti-tunnel.

I know I’ve quoted you twice now. But I have some of my own opinions on your counterpoints (not including your bias towards Micheal.) Keep in mind, this is being said with a new state of mind and with positive promotion of the PTB.

1. As you’ve expressed, pausing the 90 seconds in your case is redundant. I agree with it considering I play casually (minimized tunnelling, minimized slugging, etc’). But considering the many bonuses accompanying downed players, you don’t believe a system like that should be in place for the comfortability of beginner killers?

6. That is another point I forgot to mention. Survivors can easily exploit 6 hook by victimizing themselves for the benefit of the whole team. Not to mention, sure nobody would mean to camp or tunnel after unhook considering these changes. But then again, you can’t manage hook state as easily according to the changes. In the grand scheme of a match, are we sure killers won’t get mixed up? It wouldn’t be an issue for many. But if you’re being overwhelmed, would it not be possible killers are forced to tunnel in some way, shape or form?

7. Once again, I could care less if a killer is especially difficult to play. In fact, I prefer killers more skill based. Like you said, effectively using underwhelming killers can be highly rewarding for the people that play them and incentivize frequent usage of the killer. Again you bring up valid points which I agree on. But you also have to consider not everyone is satisfied to the extent of a Soulsborne player on whether their killer is horrendous. If your favorite killer was nerfed without reasonable cause, you’d probably be bummed. At the end of the day, I’d assume you’d deal with it. Except your gameplay is compared to an earlier stage where the killer was to your understanding in a solid spot. Being conscious of the community, I’d rather nobody is indifferent about their favorite killer as it isn’t pleasant.

Sure many of my own concerns are pertaining towards beginner mistakes. But with the current selection of killers and base kit tweaks for both killers and survivors, I think beginner players will struggle as such. Dead By Daylight as it has been discussed is already becoming less and less beginner friendly. Not that the update isn’t making it more beginner friendly but there is still the likelihood of confusion from inexperienced players.

Brimp

@Foggyguy said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990829#Comment_3990829

Lol, sure.

You can ask a lot of people on NA east pre 2v8 and they will tell you killer had incentive a good majority of the time during peak hours. Or are you just gona say "Lol, sure" without any form of disproving me? Because then I'll take that as me being right.

Brimp

@Foggyguy said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991406#Comment_3991406

Or I could just look at my que times to figure out what your saying just is not based in reality.

I said pre 2v8. Of course during 2v8 its gonna be majorly affected.

Brimp

@Foggyguy said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991497#Comment_3991497

Or I could just look at my ques before 2v8 to figure out what your saying just is not based in reality.

I mean I queued pre 2v8 as soloq and was getting nearly 2 minute long queue times. As soloq mind you. Meaning it should have been the fastest it could have been while I also got basically instant killer queues.

Rick1998

@Foggyguy said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990995#Comment_3990995

If you need tunneling to win then you should not have been winning in the first place.

doesn't the same go for if you need all these perks and handholding to win that is equally a self tell ?
when i play even in just a duo or trio i barelly have these issues as unless we are going against an S tier i can loop the killer for long enoufh for my team to win .

AbsolutGrndZer0

@MDRSan said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990896#Comment_3990896

They could easily add a condition that kills only count for this mechanic if done because of mori or freshly hooked when on death hook. For all we know it already does that - it's not even out for testing yet.

Alternate killing methods don't entitle a killer to anything. No one is meant to completely ignore the hook mechanic and if you do in this new system it's still not the end of the world - the survivors still need to do gens and I doubt the buff is going to be massive enough to compensate for there being a whole person missing.

They could do a lot of things they haven't done. But when an entire part of a Killer's power relies on a way to get around hooking, yes that does entitle them to be able to do it without being unfairly punished for simply using their power.

Reminds me of when Killer Adepts used to be Emblem based instead of relying on just getting a 4K. There were certain killers, Leatherface being the worst, where you had to ignore your power completely or you would not get enough points to get your 4 Iridescent Emblems. Content Creator OhTofu did a series of him finally getting Killer Adepts, and most of them he got first video (up to two tries per video) but Bubba took him 4 videos (meaning 8 tries) before he finally got it, simply because he was being punished for using the chainsaw as intended.