Hiding MMR is causing an echo chamber of misinformation

beater15

I haven't realized what a widespread problem this is until Otz released a video earlier today on Xenomorph. He recently came out with a tier list ranking Xeno about mid tier which apparently was "controversial", many people thinking Xeno is in a higher tier or better than it actually is.

Here lies the problem and this is a great example, because these people have never faced a top MMR survivor team that's able to properly counter Xenomorph. They never played against teams that place turrets in the most inconvenient spots (for the killer), survivors who know the map inside and out, survivors that know how to dodge the tail attack despite how "uncounterable" some people say it is. If you've played Xeno against a really good coordinated team you know what I mean, and you know Xeno is definitely not "top tier" like people claim it to be.

Most people haven't reached the hard cap on MMR, but this type of misinformation is spread and accepted in this "bubble" of thinking within the community. And don't get me started on the whole "MMR is a myth" topic, it's been datamined and there are clear soft/hard caps, most people might get to the "gold tier" of ranks but don't reach the absolute max MMR where you face the real sweaty teams.

To put this all bluntly, most people's opinions don't matter in terms of balancing the game because they've never faced the best, and they don't know this because they think they're playing against the best players. Maybe it's an issue with MMR and the whole matchmaking system too, but at least MMR should be shown to people for an ego check (for lack of better words).

KatsuhxP

@danielmaster87 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865747#Comment_3865747

That's why the devs need to start treating this game like they're developers, not an overbearing mother. The thing that causes the most pressure on this game is playing and knowing you're in a rigged match, because killer (and bad teammates solo) feels that all the time. Not this imaginary pressure about MMR or rank, which literally every game does except this one for some reason. To protect people's insecurity or something? This is sissy crap.

I believe that the people can take it no issue even if they are a bit scared there will be people that feel preassured by it, so I think they should just have it activated normally but give an option to toggle it if you really want to. That way everyone would be happy and we wouldn't have this type of guessing with the mmr xD

Thusly_Boned

@Ryuhi said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865806#Comment_3865806

My main thing about knowing MMR is that it allows people to reflect more accurately. If you have low MMR but constantly play against people with high MMR, win or lose you have absolutely zero way of directly knowing. Even if you don't know your opponent's MMR, just knowing your own and point gains/losses per match would give you a relative perspective to your opponent: If you lose and your MMR barely dips, you know you were playing against an opponent with high MMR, which allows you to make assumptions around them being more skilled at the game. If you win and gain next to nothing, you'll be able to assume you pub stomped.

This info might not seem like it matters, but it can be very helpful concerning learning from your matches. If you know you lost to someone who is better than you, it gives context to actions and strategies they might have applied, considerations for things like their build choices, etc. This can help games a lot with off-meta exploration: I know my fighting game comparisons are ever so popular, but Street Fighter 4 had a great example of this, by having both general and character specific MMR ratings that were both weighted like normal. If you played someone using a garbage character with both a high general and character MMR, you knew they were a specialist with that character. If they had high general MMR but low character MMR, you knew they most likely weren't using their main, maybe trying out a different character or playing casually. If they had low general MMR but high character MMR, they probably like experimenting with other characters but are falling back to their main due to something like a losing streak or an off day.

All of that type of data can be used to read into your opponent's mindset during a match, but it also gives you context on why they might have done some of the things they did during the match. If a specialist does something that seems completely stupid, there's a good chance there might be more to the strategy than you realize due to less familiarity. Likewise if they play a little bit of everyone and its not their main, they might be just trying things out or playing less intelligently than they normally would at their best. Most of this has nothing to do with your average player's feedback loop of "win = better, loss = worse," but it can make a pretty big difference for people who try to learn from their matches and especially from other players they face.

I also like to compare DbD to fighting games, but to illustrate what a skill based game is, and what it is not. To me, fighting games provide about the purest form of skill v. skill a video game can offer. In the PvP arena, DbD is about the furthest from that; a PvP game where skill means very little. At least it is down the list of factors that lead to a win or loss.

Not to mention that matchmaking in fighting games is light years more accurate than the practically nonexistent version we have in DbD.

So I don't really agree that the added context that knowing your and others' MMR rankings provides anything of substantive value, beyond what you can glean from the matches themselves. And again, I don't think knowing everyone's MMR score would add anything, since:

1. The criteria that go into MMR are wonky as hell, and won't necessarily tell you who is "better" anyway
2. You can tell easily enough from the gameplay and loadout of your opponent whether they are winning on their skill or other factors (provided you are capable of being objective)
3. Even if you're not objective you can just rationalize by saying your opponent's MMR was probably gamed somehow
4. You can tell easily enough what you need to work on from the matches themselves. If you are struggling to hit a curveball, whether the pitcher is a major leaguer or a minor leaguer is secondary to the fact you couldn't hit the pitch. Likewise, if you're going down in 10 seconds, you need to work on your looping, regardless of the MMR of the killer. KNow might help you morale-wise, but in terms of informing your improvement, I just don't see it. Not in this game of variables.

But for me the decider on whether I want MMR to be visible is this: it will lead to increased toxicity and belligerent discourse, and it will change nothing in terms of matchmaking. People will just be able to see how ineffectual SBMM is and get really salty about it. BHVR making SBMM better just because people can see it's bad is a pipe dream. It isn't gonna happen at this point.

I don't think any potential benefit would outweigh that.

Emeal

@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866138#Comment_3866138

More sage advice, imo. This is ideal but we all know people will be people and need their info. BHVR had a lot of solid plans for how DBD works, but almost all of them feel half assed or just lazy. MMR shouldn't be such a fantastical beast that we can't see it. And if seeing it will 'damage the game' somehow, then I'd like them to explain. They just look silly atm.

Thusly boned who posted above me, has a good view imo and I can agree with pretty much all of it. MMR in general is just a dangling fruit players will continue to chase. Working as intended.

I mean you can look up Game Design Knowledge on Google, Wikipedia to see all the pros/cons, like do you honestly need BHVR specifically to explain why to you?

Emeal

@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866181#Comment_3866181

Not at all. But my god do I want them too. I -want- to know why they decided one thing over another, why they implemented the way they did, etc. Do you not have any of this curiosity? Its fine of course, just figured it wasn't just me.

I'm not curious, because I know they don't want to be questioned on every little decision they ever made, because the problem with that would be people would rage over unsatisfying answers, as has happened in the past, many times. Too many.

If I wonder about a decision, I think critically about it and look up Game Design explanations on those issues.

ShanoaLegendaryPlz

As a 100 xeno i can confirm that he only feels very strong at first. And against coordinates teams they can just dance around and fly out the gates. I would love to see mtly mmr to know where my killers are at and which one is more likely to have harder players

PetTheDoggo

@crogers271 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866028#Comment_3866028

I might be misunderstanding what you are asking / talking about, but here goes.

Yeah, but 60% kill rate means you gain more than lose.

Not once things have settled.

If you had an evenly matched survivor and killer, the killer wins 3 out of every 5 games. However the 2 games the survivor wins in this scenario are worth the equivalent of the 3 games the killer wins.

So to use some made up numbers, let's presume an MMR win is 5 if the players were just starting off (same MMR). The killer and the survivor split into their 60 / 40 win percentage with the killer going up and the survivor going down. Pretty quickly, the MMR will slightly expect the killer to win, so they start awarding the killer player 4 MMR for a win, and when the survivor wins he gets 6. Over the course of 5 games both players would have gained, and lost, 12 points. Neither has moved, despite the killer winning more.

Now until things have settled (i.e. not a lot of games played), play fluctuates a lot, but once numbers have settled the fact that one player wins more than the other is accounted by how MMRs award points.

Sure, I don't expect occasional killer players to be near softcap, but players who actually focus on them? I would guess majority is above soft cap.

You would expect people who focus on a game to be better at the game. I don't see why that would be unique for the killer side.

I don't see why that would be unique for the killer side.

because if you escape or not as a survivor is not decided just by your skill. It's very easy for random survivor to kill everyone else.

Hey, if you are survivor main in full SWF, you should be above soft cap. But good job if you got there as soloQ.