Will you also rework killer sided maps for once or only survivor sided ones?

Langweilig

https://youtube.com/shorts/x99rOC5FlgQ?si=wmV0r6hAmAs9fD6O

I personally got no problem with Hawkins and Midwich, but the new map is very unfun as survivor, same goes for haddonfield and rancid. Garden of joy and stattered square are very unfun to play on as survivor after their reworks. The temple map from plague is also extremely killer sided and unfun.

The map is the key element, which decides wether you win or loose. On maps like haddonfield, rancid and the new map you can only win if the killer plays bad/chill or gives you the win.

Archol123

@Langweilig said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3750997#Comment_3750997

In Main you should not break the one door that connects to the window in the front. Otherwise dealing with main doesn‘t take much time since they are imprisoned in main and only got 2 pallets.

The normal looking houses are basically weaker TL walls, which can easily be dealt by breaking the walls. The basement houses are not too strong either. Getting rid of the pallets is not difficult. Having many connected tiles is not a problem at least for me as killer, but I know you will think of all the excact opposite way than I do. Agree to disagree. Most killers really don‘t struggle against those loops in my matches either.

It doesn‘t really make sense to nerf maps further when killers are so different in strength. When they would nerf all killers to roughly be b or c tier then they could also nerf maps to the same degree. How are survivors supposed to deal with a killer, that the new/reworked maps are simply to weak for!

Main still has 2 very strong pallets that you cannot play around 1/4 spawns is a bit weaker... If basement is not in main it is possible to be unable to hook someone. It is very time consuming and you cannot do much more than just to follow the survivor.

Normal house also has an upstairs... With a pallet and 2 decent windows...

The other basement house has a pallet you basically need to break, unless you have a range attack... And it can lead into a nice window top, that thing got called house of pain for a reason, calling it not too strong is a bit of an understatement.

Having connected tiles is a big issue that is what made cowshed so strong... Saying that that's not a big issue is basically showing limited understanding of the game... Connected tiles mean you can combine them without needing to drop a pallet, always back into window, greeding a pallet and being close enough to still make it to another connected tile, that is something that absolutely destroys doctor, because you cannot perma shock people in such situations. Connected tiles are some of the strongest setups the map can spawn, look for some videos of old cowshed, for example Otz vs Zubatlel 1v1 cowshed from a few years ago and you will see how big of an issue that was and it is quite similar for bedham.... Saying killers don't struggle against connected tiles is just plain wrong.

The new map is problematic, the portal infinite was ridiculous, not having to go down as killer ever was bad design, I never said the new map is fine, so I don't know why you being it up? Ofc it is problematic that Nurse plays on the same cowshed as Freddy, but that does not mean we should bring old cowshed back... That just means we need to work around that, maybe have an algorithm that changes what spawns based on the killer, eg more high walls against trickster and huntress or Nurse.

Still does not change how strong Bedham is and how unfair...

Archol123

@Langweilig said:

What's wrong with a 50/50? That's balanced for both sides. Most maps in general have too many loops that the pallet is forced break, encouraging boring/no counter play pre drop game play. Many loops once the pallet is thrown makes like a 70/30 skew in the survivor favor where the loop is generally unplayable as killer and forcing a pallet break unless the survivor just plays ridiculously bad. We need loops that are more realistically playable once the pallet is down.

I talked about the pallets where as soon as the pallet is dropped it doesn‘t matter how good you play as survivor, because the killer can just lunge around it. Both sides should be able to play them and not only the killer. The table in raccoon’s main entrance room is a very fair loop. It could be a tiny bit smaller, but over all fair. Those loops on the cinema map are just unfair.

There isn't a single map that is currently too small. Most maps are way too large. Coal Tower is the perfect size and what most maps should emulate. Small maps encourage player interaction. Hold W is such a boring and zero counter play interaction that is encouraged when maps are too large.

Just to name some: New Borgo map, old Borgo map, haddonfield, the one cooldowns map with only shack.

The killers that suck are not currently performing good.

According to the last official kill rates no killer got less than 55% kill rate, which is a higher chance to get a kill for the killer than to escape as survivor. That does not mean. That I‘m against killer buffs. I‘m only against the idea of marking maps trash and buffing killers at the same time. At some point they got to nerf killers when all maps are trash.

Yes I agree the strength of maps has been decreasing over time as historically they were wildly too strong so we've been on a constant path towards evening them out. Obviously perfect balance would never happen, that's a given. However we can get the game to a state where that balance discrepancy is significantly smaller, as we have been working towards.

I just mean the last year with that. Before the COH nerf this game was in a very good spot. They only needed to give killer the anti boon perk basekit and it would have been fine.

About killer, soloq and swf sided. Why do killers expect to win everything? Shure everyone wants to win, that’s obvious, but when the killer and the survivors are at the same skill level, survivors should always win. What even would be the point of survivor, when you can’t win? So it is only obvious, that the game is survivor sided at the best against the best. In that case the perks, killer strength, the map or „strategy’s“ decide, who wins. You can‘t really expect to kill always 3/4 people.

Wait so Borgo, Haddonfield and the coldwind map with only shack in the middle? Do you mean rotten fields?? Rotten fields is one of the biggest maps in the game... I will later on get the exact measurements of the map, but calling it small is once again just showing lack of game knowledge...

MrPenguin

@Langweilig said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3751035#Comment_3751035

The classic dbd answer („skill issue“), that goes also back to whoever says it. I get quite good survivors and killers as opponents, sadly we don‘t have a ranked system to just show a picture or something.

You all musst always only get 0ks, because survivors are that undefeatable, but still the stats say otherwise. Killer is not difficult and a lot easier than survivor.

On garden of joy they nerfed basically everything except of main, shack and car park. The maze tiles most times don‘t even have a window now.

The classic defense of "you disagree so you must be a bad x main".

First off I never said survivors are unbeatable or even unbalanced. All I said was they struggle at lower level more than mid. They are disproportionately weaker there compared to other skill levels. This is a well known fact for people who have been around for a while, and I've been around for 6+ years.

Second off everyone thinks they get "high level opponents". Fact of the matter is even the bad players think they're good and if you're getting other opponents at your level then to you they will seem like high level opponents to you when in reality the both of you are just low-mid.

Third off I play both sides, not just one.

Fourth off no I don't "only get 0ks" when I play killer. Furthermore on that point I play more for hooks than kills and get 6-8+ pretty regularly. Maybe don't make baseless accusations?

Fifth off I just had a match on GoJ (as survivor) and had more than enough to work with to loop for 3.5 gens; and I got hit early for a dumb mistake on my end so that was while injured. Yes both the tiles next to main had windows in them so I could literally jump out a window from main and jump through another right next to it on both sides + porch pallet. If that's a weak map for you and you're somehow struggling on it then I would recommend you practice it more.

Honestly felt bad for that Vecna.

Archol123

@Langweilig said:

What's wrong with a 50/50? That's balanced for both sides. Most maps in general have too many loops that the pallet is forced break, encouraging boring/no counter play pre drop game play. Many loops once the pallet is thrown makes like a 70/30 skew in the survivor favor where the loop is generally unplayable as killer and forcing a pallet break unless the survivor just plays ridiculously bad. We need loops that are more realistically playable once the pallet is down.

I talked about the pallets where as soon as the pallet is dropped it doesn‘t matter how good you play as survivor, because the killer can just lunge around it. Both sides should be able to play them and not only the killer. The table in raccoon’s main entrance room is a very fair loop. It could be a tiny bit smaller, but over all fair. Those loops on the cinema map are just unfair.

There isn't a single map that is currently too small. Most maps are way too large. Coal Tower is the perfect size and what most maps should emulate. Small maps encourage player interaction. Hold W is such a boring and zero counter play interaction that is encouraged when maps are too large.

Just to name some: New Borgo map, old Borgo map, haddonfield, the one cooldowns map with only shack.

The killers that suck are not currently performing good.

According to the last official kill rates no killer got less than 55% kill rate, which is a higher chance to get a kill for the killer than to escape as survivor. That does not mean. That I‘m against killer buffs. I‘m only against the idea of marking maps trash and buffing killers at the same time. At some point they got to nerf killers when all maps are trash.

Yes I agree the strength of maps has been decreasing over time as historically they were wildly too strong so we've been on a constant path towards evening them out. Obviously perfect balance would never happen, that's a given. However we can get the game to a state where that balance discrepancy is significantly smaller, as we have been working towards.

I just mean the last year with that. Before the COH nerf this game was in a very good spot. They only needed to give killer the anti boon perk basekit and it would have been fine.

About killer, soloq and swf sided. Why do killers expect to win everything? Shure everyone wants to win, that’s obvious, but when the killer and the survivors are at the same skill level, survivors should always win. What even would be the point of survivor, when you can’t win? So it is only obvious, that the game is survivor sided at the best against the best. In that case the perks, killer strength, the map or „strategy’s“ decide, who wins. You can‘t really expect to kill always 3/4 people.

Ok back to the map size argument…

So the biggest maps in the game are: Shelter woods with 11.264 m² (both variants), Azarovs Resting Place (same size), Wretched Shop with 10.496 m², Ironworks Variation 1 and Suffocation Pit Variation 1 (both 10.240 m²), Torment Creek with 10.752 m², Disturbed Ward with 11.008 m², Swamp with 10.304 m² and 10.752 m², Garden of Joy with 10.496 m², Greenville Square with 10.240 m².. And you know where Rotten Fields is? Up there with 10.240m²… The map is not too small my man.

1. Shelter Woods (11.264 m²)/Azarovs Resting Place
2. Disturbed Ward (11.008 m²)
3. Grim Pantry/Torment Creek (10.752m²)
4. Wretched Shop (10.496 m²)/Garden of Joy
5. Iron Works 1/Suffo Pit 1/Rotten Fields/Greenville Square (10.240 m²)

So you are telling me the 5th biggest map in the game is too small?

https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Realms

The data is not out yet for forgotten ruins, so I cannot tell for sure how big it is… While Borgo is smaller than those before mentioned maps, it is still not that small… It is only slightly smaller than eyrie of crows and as big as 3/5 Bedham maps.

I don't even think Haddonfield is necessarily too small, it is just too empty.

Anti051

Unless a massive deadzone has been created toward the end of the match, the current map formula allows survivors to always get to another pallet/window before most of the killer roster can do anything about it.

A survivor can just strap on windows of opportunity and eliminate most of the danger in being chased because of how close together resources are. Why does anything need to be made easier than it already is?

Making things less fair to the killers so it can be more "fun" for the survivors is a really childish demand.

WitchWalpurga

@Anti051 said:

Unless a massive deadzone has been created toward the end of the match, the current map formula allows survivors to always get to another pallet/window before most of the killer roster can do anything about it.

A survivor can just strap on windows of opportunity and eliminate most of the danger in being chased because of how close together resources are. Why does anything need to be made easier than it already is?

Making things less fair to the killers so it can be more "fun" for the survivors is a really childish demand.

Just something i recently noticed:

When i first loaded into borgo (the old map after the change from day to night) i started at the shack and i used windows. Leaving the shack to the middle revealed not a single pallet besides the shack one. The map was empty. Literally empty. Only clutter and some Z-Walls at the edge of the map. Some time later we played again on borgo and again half of the map was empty but this time around main.

I don't know if they changed the pallet spawn logic on that map but gutting a map like they started doing with the coldwind realm (rancid abbatoire, pallets between two hay bales…) and now continued with haddonfield by creating extremly weak tiles or just accept deadzones to be an essential part of map design is definetly not fun for survivors (even a map like the new forgotten ruins can be counted as a deadzoen as the pallets on the top level are often so weak or not existent at all if you play against vecna and his boxes take away a pallet spawn but ofc you have 4 gens there). From the killer perspective i cannot understand how you find a guaranteed win to creat joy. Sorry but haddonfield is so bad atm that you burn through the "okay"-pallets within 2 chases and all houses became awful with these openings next to every vault.