Why hate?
Why do people hate on campers, tunnelers? I have a few arguments to say that I hope to get feedback for.
- Why hate on campers? This play style is used by killers. What makes me a little angry is that no one takes into consideration of what the killer thinks and how THEY want to play. It is absolutely fair if the killer wants to hop on to DBD and play a few rounds after work or just to relax and they want to play. Everyone respectively purchased the game and they should be free to whatever playstyle they want. Have I not mentioned it is a game? If they want to choose a method of killing to LITERALLY DO THEIR MAIN OBJECTIVE: kill survivors, then they should always be free to camp or tunnel.
- Have you forgotten that even if people camp or tunnel that BHVR has clearly put consequences for this? Number one, you gain less points and are more likely to depip when camping or tunneling because your not effectively slowing down the game. Number two, even though it is not a bannable offense BHVR has stil nerfed powers, add-ons, and perks that promote camping and tunneling (except twins, theyre probably a lost cause) countless times.
So take into consideration, just play the game. Its that simple. If I buy a game and the purpose is to kill or survive why can't I do WHATEVER it takes to kill everyone or to survive the match? I am not saying I camp or tunnel but I am speaking for those who have been harassed, have quit this game because of toxicity and saltiness, or have been threatened/scared into horrible things.
Comments
The immediate fallacy in your argument is that it explicitly disregards one of the primary purposes of camping and tunneling, which is that it's used to specifically impact individual players gameplay for the negative (ie; toxic). For all of BHVR's claims, the reality is that if the killer really wants one specific person dead, the odds are stacked significantly in their favour and this only increases exponentially if you play into it, actively punishing everyone except the person choosing to make the game miserable for everyone else. (This also plays into the issue with 'bully squads' and the like, on the flip side, where killers are equally disrespected in what should be 'just a game').
Secondarily, the immediate disregard for other players is palpable. "It's just a game" is a phrase that only gets used in two specific instances. When someone's taking it too seriously, or when someone isn't taking it seriously at all. Actively going out of your way to either abuse every possible advantage in what should be "just a game" is just as mindless and uninteresting as getting a single down and M1'ing them on hook until the Entity takes them. In both cases you're disregarding the simple reality that there's _real life people_ that have to play the game with you for the game to exist at all. Or in other words, if you were playing a round of football in the local park with your friends and you decided that the best way to win was to purposefully take a bat to another player's knees... Well funny that, real sports and real games have rules and consequences around these things. Suffice to say, I don't think you'd be around for another game after that.
The most basic premise is that of sportsmanship, something this game decisively lacks because of how the objectives and core gameplay are oriented (to say nothing of the community it seems to draw). You're not allowed to injure someone in sportsball, and most sportsball games aren't asymmetrical for a reason. BHVR's inability to shift their core gameplay or admit the fault in their design doesn't magically mean that the problem doesn't exist, it just means it isn't being addressed appropriately (something many people largely agree on).
^
And also, just not being able to interact with the match after getting downed once is simply not fun. And yes, not being able to hook reasonably fast as killer before gens pop is also an issue, which also makes the game un-fun.
That's why if I'm not playing with friends and making stupid decisions (and laughing about it) then I can take max 5 survivor games (if not tunnelled or camped) and like 2-3 killer games.
Camping and Tunneling both have legit uses and the killer isn't just trying to make your game miserable by engaging in those tactics. Sometimes the best move is to remove the injured survivor who was recently unhooked, because they ran themselves into you. Sometimes forcing the hook state is the best play, because their team waited too long to get the save. Treating good decisions in a game as being intentional toxic to you is a bad mindset to have.
There's nothing wrong with the devs making it harder for killers to camp and tunnel, but killers aren't toxic for doing so.
I understand the concept but disagree with it because after a point the reality is that camping and tunneling stop being those things when they are used tactically.
A survivor bodily throwing themselves at a killer takes a risk, BT or otherwise, it's not tunneling at that point, because the survivor in question was in control and made the equally tacit decision to either use BT or strategically assumes they can loop the killer better. A killer hooking a survivor in the middle of a solid three gen isn't camping because he's no longer giving up the other objectives to specifically remove one person from the game.
The crux is that intent matters, and tunneling / camping at 4/5 gens is not the same as having two hook states and sitting on a survivor in the EGC. Just because I call a spade a spade doesn't mean I've completely ignored nuance, it just wasn't brought up in the OP, which is what I was pointing out.
Additionally, and most importantly, the closing statement of the OP was "why CAN'T I do WHATEVER it takes". The answer remains, sportsmanship. Just because the game allows you to win using tactics and strategies that prioritize removing gameplay from other players doesn't mean that it's sporting. It just means that the game has deeper problems and until BHVR recognizes and balances around that, we can either try to recognize these things and play fair as a community... Or we can play like OP suggests, treating it (and the people playing it) like "it's just a game" and therefore, likewise, nobody should be treated any modicum of courtesy because we shouldn't care at all about anyone else playing with us. (Spoilers, also not cool).
Using tactics to win at 4/5 gens left vs 0 gens left is not an issue.
I get not liking being camped or tunneled, but killers are not necessarily doing it with the intent of being toxic to you. And I say this as someone who has been more survivor lately. Camping and Tunneling are not toxic behaviors, they are tactics that are effectively at turning the pressure into the killer's favor. The devs are simply trying to give survivors some basekit tools to deal with these tactics since at the end of the day the devs have said there is nothing wrong with tunneling or camping.
I typically wouldn't mind tunneling and camping because in theory it should come to a great cost to the killer...3 survivors having an all you can eat buffet on the gens. However, there are too many backup plan perks that can completely eliminate this cost such as NOED. They can just tunnel one person, let others do all the gens, and then get handed free one hits to clean up the rest. If it wasn't for endgame i-win perks, I would say let them camp and tunnel at their own risk.
That being said, there ARE endgame i-win perks, so there's no real balance to facecamping.
Me personally, I mostly play killer, but I typically let the last hatch, or last two have a heal party if the survivors were having a rough time.......with one exception. If someone is flashlight spamming or crouch-spam taunting, I will absolutely have no mercy on that survivor. If survivors match up to me and are playing to harass, they do so at great risk to themselves.
They can be wrong. They're not omniscient, they're also just people, trying to tweak and tinker until things come out a bit better than they were before.
The reality is plain and simple, and your refusal to call it so is telling. Someone just picking up the game for the first game is probably more apt to tunnel and camp someone out of the game than a nurse with 4k hours, but the result of both of them doing so isn't any different. Just because we're getting slightly better tools to not get camped and tunneled out of the game (themselves pretty far and away from actual solutions) doesn't mean that we should kiss the ground BHVR walk on or assume the core concern has been dealt with. It hasn't, and that's just the reality.
Camping and tunneling absolutely do get used specifically to be toxic. The same goes for slugging. It can also be said for the bully squads that sabotage and boil over or all swarm with flashlights clicking incessantly. Just because these things work doesn't automatically make them fair, balanced, or sporting, which you continue to disregard. That is the core issue that people want addressed. Not a DS rework for the fourth time, or an extended BT effect. People don't want to be stuck looping the killer until the exit gates are opened, it can be just as boring as not seeing the killer all game. People want the game to properly flow in a way where they aren't making a single mistake and getting ejected from the game for it, and especially, that killers aren't getting rewarded for doing so because teammates playing into that strategy cost the entire team, further exacerbating the lack of sportsmanship.
Or, put loosely into sports terms, if my team scores once, and we spend the other forty minutes just holding onto the ball. Doing nothing else, just refusing to let go. How do you think that would go over not only with the other team, but also the fans and other related parties? Not well, it's why there's rules around that in regular sports as well, hell, even in most other games.
There's multiple different ways to create pressure, and the inability to create pressure effectively is something killers have also wanted fixed. It's part of why their chase potential is getting buffed, even if it's not a particularly nuanced shift, it does prove that BHVR is aware of the ongoing issues.
And that's also why people continue to demand / are sick and tired of the band aid fixes about tunneling and camping. The gameplay just isn't heathy nor enjoyable for either party, a sentiment that's been echoing for long enough that we're getting these changes at all.
So sorry, not sorry, but toxic is as toxic does. Refusing to separate the ideas does not do you any favours. Something that is efficient can still be toxic. Just because it isn't always toxic doesn't mean it's never toxic.
(Sigh)
Your mindset that the killer playing the game to win in a way that you personally do not approve of as being toxic is a mindset problem. There is nothing inherently wrong with camping and tunneling regardless of how many gens have been done. The devs have also confirmed this as well.
A single hook is also not equivalent to scoring a point in a sports game. Hooking a survivor is a step in the direction for the killer to "score a point" as the killer's goal is to kill survivors they would "score a point" for each kill.
Again, simply because the devs condone or balance around it, doesn't mean that the gameplay is healthy. The devs, again, are not omniscient, or else none of these changes would happen at all, because it wouldn't matter, because it would be working as intended. As that's not the case, clearly there's some room for change.
Regardless of that, though, it's impossible to even have the discussion if the perpetual inability to address the issue is going to be so entrenched. Nobody deserves to be removed from the game for losing a single chase and it's obnoxious that this argument is still happening years later.
I agree that most complaints about camping and tunneling are just sore losing. That said, actual Face Camping where the killer just stands around a hook doing nothing waiting for survivors to come to them is something the devs want to find a way to discourage. Not because it’s “overpowered” (it generally is a bad strategy), but because when it happens it’s boring for everybody involved. The killer isn’t doing anything interesting just standing there, the hooked survivor obviously isn’t doing anything at all, and the other survivors’ best strategy is often to do gens as much as possible rather than mount an immediately rescue or hook trade and just sitting doing gens isn’t all that exciting either. So to that end if the devs can ever figure out a game mechanism that can steer killers away from actual face camping it would be pretty well received. The main issue here being nobody seems to have a solid, specific, detailed way to do that in the game that doesn’t break something else. Lots of people including the devs want to find a way to do it but nobody seems to know how so far.
As far as tunneling goes, the only thing worth trying to encourage killers to do is spreading out their downs a bit so the survivors all get to stay in the match a bit more evenly. Obviously the best strategy in general for the killer is to focus one specific survivor out of the game over spreading the hooks around between the whole group, but from the perspective of that unlucky survivor they’re spending most of the match down on the ground or on a hook. That’s why the devs are making a weakened form of Borrowed Time part of the base gameplay so survivors always have at least some minimal chance to get to safety after an unhook and maybe steer the killer into chasing a different target for a bit.
So yeah, especially as a killer main I definitely think almost all the complaints I get in chat complaining about tunneling and camping are just sour grapes after a loss. But there are a couple of legitimate areas that I think the devs try to keep on mind around survivors not being eliminated before having a chance to do anything interesting and steering killers to play a bit more proactively and seek out survivors to chase versus playing stationary defense.
Not a single time did I say I know anything else about the game better than the devs, nor did I imply that the devs weren't trying to create solutions. For a post about awareness, you don't seem to be exhibiting much more than you imply I am.
Speaking of context and intention, it's clear the entire purpose of your post is simply to refuse to look at the other side and deny the reality of the situation. That's fine, not everyone is going to agree. But never did I state that inherent unfairness nor perfect balance were avoidable or achievable, respectively. You seem to be assuming a great deal about my intentions while waxing on about your own.
Okay then you have no problem with Swat SWF squads/gen-rushers? Cuz after all it's THEY want to play, at least that's how it would be by your logic. After all, they're just doing they're objective. You see the issue with this argument? Just cuz how it's how they like to play doesn't make it any more fun for the opposing side.
Point is, neither side is gonna make the game fun for each other, and both sides are gonna complain about the other. And if it's hating on starts that have been deemed a-okay by devs, then so be it, people are gonna hate because it's unfun to play against. That's your answer and because both ways are garbage ways to play as you'll only hurt yourself in the long run skill wise. Killers won't learn to break away from a chase that is going nowhere, and the gen-rushers won't learn to hold a loop against a skilled killer, that's all there is to it in my eyes.
If killers wanna camp/tunnel, then they better be prepared to face said consequences when they possibly end up with just one kill. Survivors that wanna gen-rush will be met with Hex: NOED and then get insta-downed unless the totem spawned in a crappy location.
No matter what game you play, hate will be prominent, no use complaining about and/or questioning it, cuz the answer will in most cases be the same in games like this. It makes the game unfun.
Being on the hook is not hostage taking. The devs have stated that it's not hostage taking.
Being on a hook is a part of survivor gameplay. You aren't being denied the ability to play just because you get left on hook.
Survivor gameplay has a lot of dull moments and it would be nice if the devs did an overhaul to make survivor gameplay more exciting without the involvement of the killer, but that does not appear to be their priority.
Have you ever wondered if a red rank swf wanted to bully a killer? Well, I guess the odds are stacked significantly in THEIR favour, right? Just saying what you said.
"Just because the game allows you to win using tactics and strategies that prioritize removing gameplay from other players doesn't mean that it's sporting. It just means that the game has deeper problems and until BHVR recognizes and balances around that, we can either try to recognize these things and play fair as a community.." My reply to this statement is:
I can agree with your argument. But how can BHVR effectively control this? I dont mean to be rude however, at the end of the day we all deserve to have fun and most of the DBD community works all day and comes home to play at night. Being real with you, its not just you who has these opinions but I do think that survivors can put their controller down just as equal as survivors. Taking you hostage? Why cant you take a shower, read, eat, or if anything switch to another tab or game? I do agree on some levels of your argument though. I hope we can continue this discussion.
Speaking purely for myself: I hate on campers and tunnelers, tunnelers moreso than campers, because they're a gigantic pain in the ass to deal with. Nothing frustrates me when I play Survivor more than getting off the hook and then immediately being re-downed with little-to-no recourse or opportunity to even try to prevent it short of bringing certain perks or hoping to hell that someone else brought the right perks, all of which potentially only delay the inevitable.
You say that BHVR places consequences for tunneling and camping, but those consequences only matter as much as they matter to the person playing the Killer. If the Killer doesn't care about Emblems or Bloodpoints and just wants to be a toxic ass to the Survivors, BHVR's consequences don't mean jack. The pending changes to add post-hook Endurance and Haste basekit may mitigate this, as they're intended to disincentivize going after the person just unhooked in favor of the unhooker, but it won't stop it completely.
You're not wrong that a player should be allowed to play a game they paid for and enjoy it however they want but, by that very same reasoning, as someone who also bought the game and am allowed to play and enjoy it however I want, I'm under no obligation to support such a playstyle myself and can freely say that Tunnelers are Bad, they should feel Bad, and anything that makes their lives more difficult is Good.
The way I've come to look at it is that Dead by Daylight is, first and foremost, a game. Games are best when everyone involved is enjoying themselves. You're never going to please everyone, but you're more likely to do so if you're not going out of your way to be a gigantic pain in the ass.
I don't mind dying as Survivor, or getting a zero-K as killer. You win some, you lose some. I only ask for a match I don't mind losing and I'll try to provide the same. A game where me and/or my teammates are tunneled out by a Killer is not that.
Yeah the post by post response indicating a pretty clear disregard for the obvious is the only obstacle I can really see here.
The question in the OP was why do killers get hate for these things, and after getting the responses most follow ups have just been "too bad / that's the game / why is it my problem". People state pretty clearly why, it's not some kind of mystery. It sucks and it doesn't just suck for one side, it sucks for all parties. People just want the game to be and play better and we haven't gotten it yet. Not sure why that's hard to understand but overcoming that barrier is the first step.
Well, second step technically, BHVR could try dozens of potential fixes at any given time (fingers crossed for the upcoming update).
If you're bad at the game then just say that. Nobody cares that BHVR tries to justify camping when they're being camped first hook. They should add a timer and steadily deduct points every 30 secs/ 1 minute/ 90 secs etc. Game is just further going down the whole