I feel like the only person who doesn’t like Nurse conceptually.
I just really strongly disagree with the notion that a good nurse with good perks- like, a 2000 hour nurse running 4 slowdown perks- should have complete control over a match. There are some REALLY insane nurses out there, but even I was able to reach a ~90% win rate after about 100 hours of learning her. And I just don’t agree with the justification of her power being the difficulty in using it. Imagine the outrage if good loopers were impossible to catch after playing one specific survivor for 200+ hours. If Jake was kinda hard to play, but after they sunk 200 hours they were just invincible. Does anyone else feel the same way? Or am I the only one who thinks that taking a ton of skill- I’m acknowledging the skill aspect- doesn’t justify being a guaranteed win?
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Not myself, but my parents are, and I myself have always wanted to try and pursue discussions rationally, and I've taken a lot of ethics/debate-related classes. I understand I still have shortcomings like my sarcasm/passive-aggressiveness and I am working on it.
That is why Nurse is good design, because it limits chase to which player made the more successful mindgame read or bait. Both sides always have options, and there are no auto-win nor auto-loss situations other killers will face. For instance, a survivor has no way to avoid a 115% killer in a dead zone, because the killer will just simply walk up and get a guaranteed hit. On the other hand, M1 115% killers when against strong tile setups such as a long-wall jungle gym or more against experienced survivors, will lose a great deal of time to the point the chase itself can very easily not even be worth it to try there (and thus, an auto "loss", because chase must be dropped with nothing to gain).
In comparison, Nurse can outmaneuver any loop regardless, but she cannot auto-win any loop either, as the only way for her to land a hit is to make a successful mindgame read/bait against the survivor. Chasing is not about just double-backing or not, there are many different ways to mindgame both with and without LOS. This is also why Blight is top-tier, he can mindgame almost all tiles in the game as a 50/50, much like Nurse can. Killers that cannot do this are subpar, it's not that Nurse/Blight/etc are excessive.
But a coin flip is better odds than with most killers, because with most killers, walls, windows, and pallets all provide options for the surv. Those things are largely irrelevant to the Nurse. She just has to get close to you.
Boil it down to this: you are on one side of a safe loop, and the Nurse is on the other, do you feel the same way about your chances that you would if it were the Trapper? Or anyone else, really?
Is it an accident she is played at such a high rate at top tier/comp?
Don't worry about "condescending".
It's a strange question as we have an explanation of how MMR fluctuates.
Giving a definition is quite difficult.
If your question is specifically about "High", I'd say a threshold above which matches tend to last 5 minutes and where you encounter several cheaters per night. It's where you are sent when you tend to win a lot. It's also where most killers cannot compete without a sweaty build.
I didn't say people got worse, just more predictable. Those things can be, and at high level, mutually exclusive. There are good, sound tactics in this game, and you learn them as you play, and employ them more as you get better. We all know what they are, and probably witched videos on them in our early days. They're predictably employed, but because there are usually more than two options for any player in a given situation, it just becomes a game of stringing together accurate predictions.
So a numbers game.
The only times I see things that are totally surprising is when I get matched up against total babies, because they haven't been conditioned by the game yet. And even though they are unpredictable, the always lose.
Nurse is a killer where you have the perks to be altruistic or you don't and it's every survivor for themselves. Unfortunately in solo you have no way to communicate your intentions so everyone just goes altruistic regardless of the unbalance.
I just don't care to run those perks because if I balance my load out for nurse, then I'm sweating for no reason against the rest of the field.
Yeah I worded that badly, apologies
I meant in terms of how survivors play
Like what do you consider to be the "high mmr" survivor playstyle, is a better way of putting it
I'm pretty sure she is better than others, as in others are seriously lackluster?
I'm not sure it's something one can get rid of. I've tried for several decades yet I still speak sarcasms fluently and am horribly blunt, unless I'm very very careful. The only way that works for me is to let go and remember the famous saying about some people one shouldn't argue with. ^_^
These people are just blind to how powerful Nurse is, and I am certain it is just on purpose to try to shut down this argument. No actual top tier player in this game, like, 4k hours or more, would ever disagree that Nurse is by far the most powerful killer. They just want to pull a "Gotcha!" moment when we admit that we haven't spent 40 hours a week researching to prove that Nurse is the best; and why would we? Every reasonable person on here knows that already.
There is a difference in being the most powerful and the best killer, and being overpowered/broken/etc.
She is the former. She is not the latter. If you want to dispute that, give actual proof or your claims are meaningless.
There is more than one playstyle. It would take a while to describe this.
If I had to summarize ...
There is more but I'd say it's a good stub.
Sorry I might misunderstanding your first part or you misunderstood me. What I was referring to when I mentioned the things we don't have are the content/changes that the devs thought of/made and tested, but decided not to implement while never mentioning it to the community. Only the devs know of that stuff and whether nurse was a factor in cutting it. Until the devs come out and say something, its all just speculation on our part and i'll keep it in my mind as a possibility.
All I was saying is it makes no sense for people to assume that it is true like some people do until devs say so, like you said. The stuff that is confirmed is that multiple perks good for her have been buffed and released. It might be possible what you said is true, but without confirmation, it's pointless for it to be brought up in a discussion. "Well (insert anything) is actually (problematic/holding back balance/overpowered/etc) but it's just never been proven." You could make that statement about literally anything, and it would be equally meaningless. You see what I mean?
On the contrary, I could ask you to prove WHY she is not overpowered. And before you go for the classic, "burden of proof" argument, when something like Nurse's power is common knowledge, the burden of proof I would argue should be on the person DISAGREEING with everyone else.
So this is an odd one to answer, because skill often doesn't manifest itself the way people expect it to on the survivor side. Or DbD in general. Especially at the competitive level, a lot of viewers who are seeing it for the first time will remark that the survivors are "bad" because they aren't looping anything. At the very highest levels, the game is much more macro based than individual chase based. And for whatever reason people think you're only good at survivor if you have zero game sense and take unnecessary risks/hits and potentially throw games. It's bizarre, but that opinion isn't going to change.
Sure, top players can loop something. They can probably squeeze a lot out of the tile. But if you're playing against a top killer, you have to weigh the risk. Factor in their skill, ping differences, etc., and it's actually a terrible play to be greedy at pallets.
For public matches, "high MMR" isn't really a thing given how wide the acceptable range is. I guess it's maybe a catch-all term for a team that isn't completely dumb. Every once in a while the game will throw 4 great survivors together, but more often than not it's a mixed bag and a top killer can win any time they want if they choose to target the weaker players.
I see what you're saying and I do understand where you're coming from. I think where we disagree is I personally don't think its pointless to ask this question regarding nurse as she is their strongest killer (i'm also a curious person and like asking questions so it might just be me). This just might be a case of us needing to agree to disagree, but know that I do appreciate the civil conversation and taking the time to explain.
That makes sense yeah
When I hear the phrase 'high mmr' what personally comes to my mind may differ to someone else. Especially like you said some people have v different perceptions
Burden of proof is on the one disputing from what is the norm. But I also don't mind if it'll help you become a bit more educated on the matter. Endlessly shifting the burden back and forth is pointless anywho.
Competitive play setting (standard restrictions): Nurse averages out to a 2K on an even map, slides to 1-3 depending on what other map is in the current tournament rotation. All DBE (Dead by eSports) tournaments (which are the majority) can have VODs found on YouTube and/or Twitch. There are dozens upon dozens of tournaments, some with rule/map variations and others, but most of them are more or less the same guidelines/same few maps used per killer. (For instance, Nurse rotates between a few different maps so it doesn't become boring to watch. Same as other killers. Weaker killers have singular best map for them only.) Example VOD link, so you know how to look around for them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb00wvwUez4 (Oracle and Agony are among the best teams in the world, if you didn't know)
Competitive play setting (all restrictions removed): Nurse averages out to a 1.92K. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297338/statistical-evaluation-of-an-interesting-tournament/ is a link to Wwispy1's tournament where Nurse appeared in 14 games (lost 6, tied 5, won 3). There's others out there as well, but Wwispy1's is the most 'big'/notable one.
Non-competitive play setting: In a non-competitive setting, YouTube uploads are usually only wins/win-streaks. If you want to see full gameplay VODs against everyone rather than highlights, checking Twitch VODs is better for this. Additionally, as BHVR has also stated in the Q&A stream here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz7f_WPutq8&t=2143s , extremely good players are soft-capped because otherwise queues will take literal hours. This results in said very good players being matched with worse players. Obviously, this will be pretty one-sided. This is the reason extremely good players (such as some of the better-known content creators) will win the absolute majority of games regardless of killer/survivor. The opponent(s) they are matched with are usually not on the same level. With that in mind, non-competitive even matches are generally pretty rare for players of that level. Here are several examples of very good players versus other very good players. Scrims are not included, as they are done under tournament rules. Non-scrim KYF is, as that is a thing content creators do anyways (playing KYF with each other). The 1v1 examples are to show that good players understand how to mindgame against a Nurse in chase. It's pretty simple to tell when a Nurse or survivor against a Nurse is good based off how they react and mindgame each other, since competitive level players still give a frame of reference for how people chase as and against Nurse. Competitive is pretty meaningless for anything else, but chases are more or less the same and can be learned from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZHFVowqws Fubs vs partial tournament SWF in regular non-tournament KYF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_R-gkMwKpA SupaAlf on MMR Test Day 3 (equal skill matches prioritized over queue time)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnjfG_sLfQg SupaAlf 1v1s (Yerv/SuperAaronNova/Vizion) - Vizion's runs are particularly of note here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_iQ5S-ABA SupaAlf 1v1s (Fubs/Sweh/Otz)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30TKsT-s8Y8 Ayrun's chases versus a decent Nurse
If you would still like to dispute this, please give conclusive counter-evidence that Nurse consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on an even map. If she is so obviously overpowered as you say, there should be an abundant amount of proof.
Imagine the outrage if good loopers were impossible to catch after playing one specific survivor for 200+ hours. If Jake was kinda hard to play, but after they sunk 200 hours they were just invincible.
That is the thing. No amount of hours should make a survivor invincible against a (relatively) even matched killer. Survivors should not be able to go toe-to-toe with killers and consistently win chases (against the aforementioned even matched killer ). Killers should win the majority of chases. This is because Dead By Daylight is an asymmetrical game. Survivors should not both dominate in the macro game ( Generators / objectives ) and the micro game ( Chases and related things).