Clown OP, plz nerf

RSB

Have you noticed something? There is no thread such as this. You know why?

Because the killer is weak as hell. Even Wraith had his "Wraith OP, plz nerf" threads...

Runiver

It has a few on steam.
Tho they're mostly trolls and baits.

The clown could use some tweaks, discussed it with Horvath, he took the opinions but he'd rather wait before doing any small buff atm.

RSB

@Runiver said:
It has a few on steam.
Tho they're mostly trolls and baits.

The clown could use some tweaks, discussed it with Horvath, he took the opinions but he'd rather wait before doing any small buff atm.

He needs:
-throwing bottles like Huntress do, but with limited range

• longer gas cliud
• REAL blindness, not the blur, when you can see everything anyway
• longer effect, like 2,5-3 seconds

Runiver

@RSB said:

@Runiver said:
It has a few on steam.
Tho they're mostly trolls and baits.

The clown could use some tweaks, discussed it with Horvath, he took the opinions but he'd rather wait before doing any small buff atm.

He needs:
-throwing bottles like Huntress do, but with limited range

• longer gas cliud
• REAL blindness, not the blur, when you can see everything anyway
• longer effect, like 2,5-3 seconds

I suggested it a few things, he didn't seem quite interested so far. Probably still gathering some intel. Doesn't seem aware that people consider him pretty weak tho already.

He probably thinks we're too hasty to judge, which is possible, but I doubt it since he's pretty straightforward.

RSB

On the other thread, I wrote something about killer being weak. The Dev responded to me with this, > > @Janick said:

Just to clarify, the slow down happens while the Survivor is INSIDE a gas cloud and EXTEND 1.5 seconds after leaving the gas cloud. So if the Survivor goes through the whole thing is slowed down for MORE than 1.5 sec. The 1.5 sec also reset each time he enters a cloud.

If the Survivor gets hit directly by a bottle, the Visibility penalty is increased compared to only entering the cloud. (Using the Cigar box make it that Survivor who enters the cloud will suffer from the same blurry vision effect as when they get hit directly.)

We also do not intend to make the bottles fly more direct like the Huntress Hatchet. We see him as an AOE/ Area control effect Killer and not a projectile/dmg base Killer.

Hope that clarifies the subtility in the power.

Then I've responded with this:
"> Sure, but:

• the gas dissapears too quickly
• the throwing is very weird, unprecise, unintuitive, and the bottle flies too slow
• effect of blurry vision does nothing, the survivor knows exactly where to loop and when to drop the pallet, so you can delete it anyway
• the decreased movement speed, while being under the effect of the gas does almost nothing as well

So we have another low tier killer, the "noobstomper". He will be viable at low ranks (as every killer is), but incapable of killing survivors at mid and high ranks. He can blur the vision a bit, he can slow survivors a bit (if he manage it to hit them with the gas,of course). But he CAN'T be good at slowing, good at blinding the survivors. He is literally a "Fire up" among the killers - nice on paper, useless in the game, and the effect of his ability is unnoticeable.

So, to make him viable:

• make his gas BLIND (like a flashlight)
• make his cloud not dissapearing after 3-4 seconds, or make the effect of his gas not dissapearing after 1,5 seconds, but after a longer amount of time
• (optional) the slower movement speed should be more noticeable
• fix the throwing of his bottles, they should be throwable as huntress can throw her hatchets, but with smaller range

Boom, nice and viable killer. "

And you know what? His only respond was "The gas lasts 10 seconds". And that is it. When I asked him to respond to ALL my comment, he didn't.

So yeah, they think he is a pretty good killer, refusing to listen to every argument that says otherwise.

Dwight_Confusion

He's solid at the moment. He does need a few tweaks.

Such as slightly larger gas cloud AoE
or
Longer lasting cloud
or
Longer effect in current sized cloud

and the ultra rare add on should have NO drawbacks. It's Ultra Rare and you might only get 2-3 of them every 40 levels in the web. Why not make it STRONG. Killers need STRONG ultra rare add ons.

Cake1100

He isnt weak. He is quite balanced just you need to be skilled and predict well.

RSB

@Cake1100 said:
He isnt weak. He is quite balanced just you need to be skilled and predict well.

Survivors don't even bother to avoid his gas, because it does nothing.

Doctor_Derek

I think he's okay. I just don't like his throwing. Feels odd.

Zavri

@Cake1100 said:
He isnt weak. He is quite balanced just you need to be skilled and predict well.

lol.

ClowningAround

@RSB said:

@Cake1100 said:
He isnt weak. He is quite balanced just you need to be skilled and predict well.

Survivors don't even bother to avoid his gas, because it does nothing.

And then you run into a Clown running bottle of bleach + Ethol bottle.

Say bye bye to your movement speed. Almost crouching speed while running? Oh bby.

Steebear

@RSB said:

@Cake1100 said:
He isnt weak. He is quite balanced just you need to be skilled and predict well.

Survivors don't even bother to avoid his gas, because it does nothing.

This just isn't true at all. The PTB is only just out we need to give it some time and learn how to play him well. He is not useless at all in fact he has good potential. Walking through the clouds is not a good idea and with some actual planning and thought you can cause survivors real problems on pallet loops. There are so many ways to think about using the bottles ... I think more practice and games is needed before declaring he is rubbish.

Does he need a few tweaks? Yes of course but the whole idea is great and I am very happy with what we are seeing so far.

MrDrakanator

Yeah I think he is pretty bad, he isn't hag or Freddy but he is on par with the Wraith I would say so far ( Despite my experience as a killer main I am not trying to definitively say he is bad), but the slow from his bottle seems barely noticeble and the duration of the affect is laughable. Yes as the developer stated it's 1.5 seconds after they leave the cloud but how long does it take to escape it, like MAYBE 1.5 seconds if caught in the dead center of the explosion? Either way the affect does basicly nothing in a chase because you have to slow down and throw the ######### thing before it can potentialy have any affect. And That's if they aren't at a pallet, if their at a pallet your ######### my guy, just like most killers, you can say he isn't notably bad (I'd disagree) but you can't say that he is a viable killer to me AT ALL.

Cake1100

Like what are you guys all saying? He has been out for a short time, nobody has had the time to master him - go up against a good clown and he will destroy you. E.g: Nurse - if you dont know how to play her she is ass, master her, best killer in the game.

Allivan

@Cake1100 said:
Like what are you guys all saying? He has been out for a short time, nobody has had the time to master him - go up against a good clown and he will destroy you. E.g: Nurse - if you dont know how to play her she is ass, master her, best killer in the game.

This is not one of those instances. He is flat out weak right now. He needs some major tweaking.

NotSure

The killer is fine right now, people who want nerfs are trolling. He has uses and I consider him to be fairly balanced.

Dragonredking

@Cake1100 said:
Like what are you guys all saying? He has been out for a short time, nobody has had the time to master him - go up against a good clown and he will destroy you. E.g: Nurse - if you dont know how to play her she is ass, master her, best killer in the game.

People said the same thing about freddy when people said he was weak and now look at him.

I agree that first impression can be false but sometime it hit the right spot.

Notable example are the original reaction to DS and BT when they where announced.

Runiver

@Cake1100 said:
Like what are you guys all saying? He has been out for a short time, nobody has had the time to master him - go up against a good clown and he will destroy you. E.g: Nurse - if you dont know how to play her she is ass, master her, best killer in the game.

Not being able to "master him yet" doesn't change the fact that you can see if a killer has potential or not, without being able to play him perfectly.

Nurse has HUGE rewards for being played right, since it's pretty much a nearly garanteed hit on a proper blink.
Does a properly placed bottle will give you a hit everytime ? I heavily doubt so. It sure will give you a strategic advantage, maybe an early pallet drop and such. But is it a solid tactic like the Nurse's ? Not really.

Imo he could use a few tweaks. It's PTB, giving him a few more buffs to see how it goes, and eventually revert if it goes too far, wouldn't be excessive imo.

Aftertaste

No! He needs a bit buff i mean +0.5 hindred work

Dragonredking

Like I said in another thread, people that originaly complain about how much a killer is "OP" are more than likely too occupied complaining about the pallet change and hatch change to care about the new killer.

Cake1100

@Runiver said:

@Cake1100 said:
Like what are you guys all saying? He has been out for a short time, nobody has had the time to master him - go up against a good clown and he will destroy you. E.g: Nurse - if you dont know how to play her she is ass, master her, best killer in the game.

Not being able to "master him yet" doesn't change the fact that you can see if a killer has potential or not, without being able to play him perfectly.

Nurse has HUGE rewards for being played right, since it's pretty much a nearly garanteed hit on a proper blink.
Does a properly placed bottle will give you a hit everytime ? I heavily doubt so. It sure will give you a strategic advantage, maybe an early pallet drop and such. But is it a solid tactic like the Nurse's ? Not really.

Imo he could use a few tweaks. It's PTB, giving him a few more buffs to see how it goes, and eventually revert if it goes too far, wouldn't be excessive imo.

He has potential, alright?

Dwight_Confusion

He's definitely not weak, nor strong.

he's quite mid tier at the moment from what I can tell.

one of his add ons got a buff a few minutes ago in the latest PTB patch. They are making the right choices.

Great job DBD devs.

Runiver

@Cake1100 said:

@Runiver said:

@Cake1100 said:
Like what are you guys all saying? He has been out for a short time, nobody has had the time to master him - go up against a good clown and he will destroy you. E.g: Nurse - if you dont know how to play her she is ass, master her, best killer in the game.

Not being able to "master him yet" doesn't change the fact that you can see if a killer has potential or not, without being able to play him perfectly.

Nurse has HUGE rewards for being played right, since it's pretty much a nearly garanteed hit on a proper blink.
Does a properly placed bottle will give you a hit everytime ? I heavily doubt so. It sure will give you a strategic advantage, maybe an early pallet drop and such. But is it a solid tactic like the Nurse's ? Not really.

Imo he could use a few tweaks. It's PTB, giving him a few more buffs to see how it goes, and eventually revert if it goes too far, wouldn't be excessive imo.

He has potential, alright?

I've been playing him extensively today.
He has potential, but nearly not as much as Nurse.
He's a good mid-tier in my opinion.

Dwight_Confusion

@Runiver said:

I've been playing him extensively today.
He has potential, but nearly not as much as Nurse.
He's a good mid-tier in my opinion.

Yes very much the case. Very mid tier. Very Pig like in a lot of ways. I'd say he's just below huntress or maybe equal.

Runiver

@Dwight_Confusion said:

@Runiver said:

I've been playing him extensively today.
He has potential, but nearly not as much as Nurse.
He's a good mid-tier in my opinion.

Yes very much the case. Very mid tier. Very Pig like in a lot of ways. I'd say he's just below huntress or maybe equal.

I compare him more to the doctor, tho he doesn't have as much utility to find people and his ability is quite different. Doctor is more about getting the timing, and Clown is more about finding the proper area to nade, quickly.
Definitely interesting tho.

Dwight_Confusion

Yeah he is more like the Doctor, what I meant was in killer standing/tier ranking...

He's in that Pig/Huntress/Doctor feeling. I personally think he's just above huntress myself. He's got the ability to get a hit almost every time in the above when there's a large gap in space.

TeambossFloze

@RSB said:

@Cake1100 said:
He isnt weak. He is quite balanced just you need to be skilled and predict well.

Survivors don't even bother to avoid his gas, because it does nothing.

I have to politely disagree with this, I've dominated teams with utilising just the gas cloud, both for area denial and the 15% speed debuff.

TeambossFloze

@Dwight_Confusion said:
Yeah he is more like the Doctor, what I meant was in killer standing/tier ranking...

He's in that Pig/Huntress/Doctor feeling. I personally think he's just above huntress myself. He's got the ability to get a hit almost every time in the above when there's a large gap in space.

I think hitting the survivor is literally only 50% of how the clown should be played, great to slow down a survivor to enable a clean hit, but I feel its more about area denial and closing off routes (risk/reward for survivor) - blocking vaults etc. He does seem somewhere in the middle - most high tier killers though are there because they are able to close down space and control to a degree where the survivor is going - which is something I think the clown does well.

TeambossFloze

@RSB said:
Have you noticed something? There is no thread such as this. You know why?

Because the killer is weak as hell. Even Wraith had his "Wraith OP, plz nerf" threads...

Could be no posts because he isn't OP but that doesn't mean he is low tier either - could mean he is in a "good" place ? no news is good news

Master

@RSB said:
Have you noticed something? There is no thread such as this. You know why?

Because the killer is weak as hell. Even Wraith had his "Wraith OP, plz nerf" threads...

Simply change the blur effect which does nothing into a blindness effect. Survivors have to ability to completely blind the killer and they are playing the weak role....

NMCKE

I do think the killer is somewhat weak in my opinion because there's always that question to see if the killer is strong or not. "Can this killer end chases effectively and reliably?" If it's no, he's lower-mid tier killer and if it's yes, he's mid-higher tier. Kinda explains why you see nurses, Huntress, and sometimes billys at higher ranks. This killer can SOMETIMES end chases SOMEWHAT effectively (Due to the slowness effect) but CAN'T do it reliably (Due to survivors' counter play) which puts him at lower-mid tier killer if not then he's at least mid tier killer. Now, since we discussed what makes a killer a high tier killer, how can we make him better without making him "OP"? Simple, instead of 5% decrease to speed when affected by the tonic gas, [Optional buff] make it prevent survivors from running when affected by the tonic gas. [Optional buff] Remove the killer's red stain for the duration effect of the tonic gas for the survivor's perspective. [Need Buff] Increase tonic gas effects to 5 seconds (5 seconds will refresh if survivor walks back into the gas or remains in it) and increase the blurry vision effect (because currently it doesn't do enough). Now what's the point of these buff(s)? Survivors will now think twice about walking in the tonic gas and will now punish survivors if they walk in to it. Give me constructive feedback and point out some flaws in the Needed Buff suggestion. Optional buffs are just something to consider if my needed buff doesn't work or just isn't enough to make the killer better overall.

cauthon1041

The only thing about the clown that i think is OP at all are some of his add-ons. The ones that cause exhaustion for 30 seconds+. Taking away perks from survivors is bad balancing, unless you're willing to lengthen the time it takes to reload the bottles by a decent margin.

DocOctober

@cauthon1041 said:
The only thing about the clown that i think is OP at all are some of his add-ons. The ones that cause exhaustion for 30 seconds+. Taking away perks from survivors is bad balancing, unless you're willing to lengthen the time it takes to reload the bottles by a decent margin.

Oh but Hex Perks are just fine?

Hypocrisy.

AlexAnarchy

@cauthon1041 said:
The only thing about the clown that i think is OP at all are some of his add-ons. The ones that cause exhaustion for 30 seconds+. Taking away perks from survivors is bad balancing, unless you're willing to lengthen the time it takes to reload the bottles by a decent margin.

Hypocrites!!!!

Zavri

@cauthon1041 said:
The only thing about the clown that i think is OP at all are some of his add-ons. The ones that cause exhaustion for 30 seconds+. Taking away perks from survivors is bad balancing, unless you're willing to lengthen the time it takes to reload the bottles by a decent margin.

Lol, what about the huntress or pig with 90 second exhaustion / infinite?

Jack11803

Seems like he’s fine and killers just need a buff in general...

Master

@Nickenzie said:
I do think the killer is somewhat weak in my opinion because there's always that question to see if the killer is strong or not. "Can this killer end chases effectively and reliably?" If it's no, he's lower-mid tier killer and if it's yes, he's mid-higher tier. Kinda explains why you see nurses, Huntress, and sometimes billys at higher ranks. This killer can SOMETIMES end chases SOMEWHAT effectively (Due to the slowness effect) but CAN'T do it reliably (Due to survivors' counter play) which puts him at lower-mid tier killer if not then he's at least mid tier killer. Now, since we discussed what makes a killer a high tier killer, how can we make him better without making him "OP"? Simple, instead of 5% decrease to speed when affected by the tonic gas, [Optional buff] make it prevent survivors from running when affected by the tonic gas. [Optional buff] Remove the killer's red stain for the duration effect of the tonic gas for the survivor's perspective. [Need Buff] Increase tonic gas effects to 5 seconds (5 seconds will refresh if survivor walks back into the gas or remains in it) and increase the blurry vision effect (because currently it doesn't do enough). Now what's the point of these buff(s)? Survivors will now think twice about walking in the tonic gas and will now punish survivors if they walk in to it. Give me constructive feedback and point out some flaws in the Needed Buff suggestion. Optional buffs are just something to consider if my needed buff doesn't work or just isn't enough to make the killer better overall.

Yes I would really like to see some stuff that plays with the survivors ability to sprint, duration of the gas is fine in my opinion, just the effect is too weak

Yuhg

@cauthon1041 said:
The only thing about the clown that i think is OP at all are some of his add-ons. The ones that cause exhaustion for 30 seconds+. Taking away perks from survivors is bad balancing, unless you're willing to lengthen the time it takes to reload the bottles by a decent margin.

Hello, i would like to talk about Hex Perks. Taking away killer perks for the entire match is bad balancing too.

RSB

@DocOctober said:

@cauthon1041 said:
The only thing about the clown that i think is OP at all are some of his add-ons. The ones that cause exhaustion for 30 seconds+. Taking away perks from survivors is bad balancing, unless you're willing to lengthen the time it takes to reload the bottles by a decent margin.

Oh but Hex Perks are just fine?

Hypocrisy.

Of course, because it makes the killers weaker, so who cares?