Tweak DS for good, one last time!

Snapshot

We all know this is a controversial topic, BUT

I think we can all agree on the fact that many many people, here on the forums, on Twitch, on YouTube still want to see DS tweaked slightly (Many killers and many survivors I know). It is not solely for anti-tunnel and makes the Endgame Collapse not as dangerous for survivors, as it was intended originally by the devs. Also, all 4 survivors can equip the perk (there are far less powerful ones which do not "stack"), which you have to keep in mind.

Change I propose:

• Deactivate currently active DS when another survivor is hooked

That would make it fulfill it's original purpose, stay extremely strong for survivors as anti-tunnel perk and not punish killers for surivivor's mistakes. The duration is OK I think, it's just that slugging as a counterplay is boring for both killer and survivor and to fully counter it, bringing a mori most likely makes many survivors DC.. so no solution either.

Any CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts? Please discuss. Thanks :)

Nhekii

You need to understand that DS is not an anti-tunnel perk. It's a perk designed to grant a survivor 60 seconds of immunity after getting unhooked, not for punishing killers that are tunnelling.

TAG

@Nhekii said:

You need to understand that DS is not an anti-tunnel perk. It's a perk designed to grant a survivor 60 seconds of immunity after getting unhooked, not for punishing killers that are tunnelling.

@PatBrutal said:

Decisive Strike Q&A with Horvath | February 22, 2019

Today we did a Q&A session on discord with Stefan Horvath about the upcoming changes on Decisive Strike.
So here are below the answers given by our Game Designer/Stefan Horvath.

Question: What led to the decision to put the timer on Decisive Strike?

Horvath: We decided to put a timer on Decisive Strike as one of the solutions to Decisive Strike being used too often, we tried 2 minutes internally and found that players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed

Question: Are these changes final?

Horvath: We are constantly looking at feedback from out players as well as in respect to the new content that we create, for now you will see this version of Decisive Strike on the PTB

Question: Why the timer? Doesn’t that just encourage the survivor to get downed again just to have a perk?

Horvath: Well, it depends on how you see it. You only disable Decisive Strike if you've successfully hit the skill check, or if you tried to hit the skill check and failed. Therefore the timer serves as a window to use the perk, but not to lose the perk.

Question: Doesn’t the change to DS make it very similar to borrowed time and kind of redundant in purpose?

Horvath: I feel like borrowed time and Decisive Strike serve a similar purpose, but DS is controlled by the person on the hook, whereas Borrowed Time requires a teammate to run it and unhook you. I believe there is place for both perks

Question: Have you considered making it so Enduring doesn't apply to DS stun, now that the stun lasts 3 seconds?

Horvath: There has been a lot of feedback regarding the 3 second stun for Decisive Strike, previously the stun has been 4 seconds for a long time, once upon a time it used to be 5 seconds. We are currently revising and investigating what we will do regarding enduring and the Decisive Strike timer, it may end up being 4 seconds, but I believe we will try 3 seconds in the PTB. I look forward to your feedback

Question: About the DS changes, wouldn’t these changes punish killers if they find the same survivor and or during a killer's snowball?

Horvath: There is definitely a possibility that this happens, I deliberately ran to the killer and was downed/ picked up to just get my DS off and it definitely affected the tide of the game. But ultimately, we have tried to mitigate the amount of time DS wastes in respect to the killer, having the skillcheck occur during pick up and no longer having the non-obsession wiggling out at 35% will save a lot of time.

Question: Thanks again for being here it's really nice that you take the time to be closer to the community. When you started the discussion about DS, what did you have in mind ? Did you wanted to straight up nerf it or just change/adjust it ?

Horvath: Decisive Strike has been a topic of conversation for a long time, we have entertained several iterations in the past. I will see if I can go into the interations. Ultimately, when we look at balancing the game we try and offer an experience that is fun for everyone, while understanding that one side is trying to kill the other :P. There are definitely frustrations, and we are constantly looking to make this more fun and enjoyable for everyone.

Question: Should the stun not be longer (original 5 sec) if the Survivor who used DS was already the Obsession to give them extra time against like for example a black box Freddy?

Horvath: Definitely a possibility, I don’t know if we will go to 5 seconds though

Question: Isn't this DS change a nerf to Dying Light? Since the obsession changes and is therefore alive when a new obsession is chosen?

Horvath: This will definitely affect Dying Light if survivors choose to proc DS at the right moments. Depending on the gameplay and decisions made a survivor team could reverse the effects of Dying Light, until another obsession dies. I think the new obsession interaction should be quite interesting, and I look forward to how you guys use it.

Question: Could you confirm that rancor won’t be an insane perk because of the new changes?

Horvath: Rancor will be quite interesting, the edge case to be able to achieve 4 mori's with Rancor will be very hard to achieve. Considering the time it takes to mori someone, and that the last person still needs to get off the hook and have time left on their Decisive Strike. It may happen though, and I hope it's clipped when it does

Question: i personally think it’s almost impossible to do it as by that time survivors will either win or simply use the ds early so you only get 1 rancor kill

Horvath: You may have to try and put more chance on your side with Blood Warden

Question: Why doesn't the timer only progress when you're in a hunt? I mean, wouldn't that be balanced?

Horvath: We chose to keep 60 seconds as the window of opportunity to limit the situations where you can use DS. Feedback that we have received from the community and evidence of how our games play out indicate that being able to DS out of the killers grasp at any time in the match can have a major effect on the killers efficiency. With the timer now, players should feel more rewarded when hitting their DS and hopefully killers won’t feel that the DS stun was out of place under the current conditions

Question: Will the size of DS' skill check remain the same? or will we be seeing a bigger chance due to the change to it?

Horvath: The skill check is going to be slightly larger than the first tier overcharge skillcheck.

Question: Does it feel good to make a change to a perk that has plagued both sides of the community, killers and survivors, for so long?

Horvath: We will see how it works out in the wild, I believe we as a team enjoy to work at making this game more pleasant and interesting for everyone.

Question: I have very interesting question to you and your team but i don’t know you want to say that to us. We will get Decisive in PTB, so there is my question - PTB will come to us in Tuesday?

Horvath: I unfortunately cannot tease you with the date! But I am excited for you guys to try it out.

Question: What do you think about all killers perks like "play with your food", "rancor" or even "remember me"? Isn't the new DS a kinda huge nerf for them?

Horvath: It depends on which perk you are running, Rancor could end up with multiple moris on multiple survivors, Play With Your Food may change your mentality, and you may lose the chase with the survivor to gain a token to chase someone else down. Remember Me will allow you to trigger more time on the door if you have not reached maximum stacks.

Question: There are a lot of bugs in the game, and you guys think about changing perks…

Horvath: I think it's an interesting question, I focus on many aspects not just improving perks, perks can sometimes be easier to adjust in comparison to large components of the game and they definitely add value to replayability and keeping things fresh.

Question: Does this mean dribbling a survivor serves no purpose? Good on BHVR to remove that.

Horvath: Yes dribbling should no longer be a thing, I do not believe this was mentioned in the blogpost but there is now a 0.5 second delay before a killer can drop a survivor after picking them up. This should avoid dribbling and flashlight dodging right after a pick up. (flashlights can still be avoided by facing away from them)

Question: With how short game time is if survivors choose to optimally complete their objective, isn't DS still a perk that grants too much ground, and now encourages 4 people to run it in a game since everyone gets the same effect regardless of obsession status?

Horvath: I am quite excited to see how we behave with the new Decisive strike Changes, I am not sure everyone will run it, I am also wondering if some killers will even see DS proc if they do not tunnel. The 60 seconds does allow for enough time to find a killer after being unhooked, but I believe it will come down to a smart strategy in that case.

Question: Do you have any plans at the moment to adjust the other Obsession perks, since the obsession-switching has such a drastic effect on that mechanic?

Horvath: All perks can possibly change depending on what ideas we have for them, if they fit and depending on how the community views them. The Obsession mechanic hasn't had many updates so far, so it is possible more changes will come for them.
Question: Out of curiosity, What has been the general reaction to the new decisive strike changes?

Question: Out of curiosity, What has been the general reaction to the new decisive strike changes?

Horvath: There have been a lot of emotions, I believe there have been more than a few people who have wanted DS changes and even more who are unsure whether they like or dislike the changes. I am personally excited to see what happens when it is released.

Question: Has it been asked yet if the DS timer will continue to count if BT is applied? I'm assuming both timers will run simultaneously?

Horvath: I am not 100% sure, they should be both running simultaneously imo.

Question: Does the 60 Second timer introduced with the rework still run when in the dying state? Meaning can a killer just slug the suspected DS user to wait the DS out?

Horvath: Absolutely, from what I've gathered from the community feedback so far and internal talk, there may be some slug metas incoming, and obviously anti slugging perks will probably come out to play as well. time will tell though

Question: So you can no longer save DS? once you miss it, it's a wrap right?

Horvath: If you succeed or fail the skill check it's gone. But if you let the skillcheck go by it will be active again when you are unhooked the next time

Question: Why does DS have to make the survivor the obsession? Am I missing something?

Horvath: We thought it would be an interaction that the players would enjoy, it was not necessary.

Question: Is the timer still something that BHVR will be looking into? DS's effective time zone seems incredibly small as of right now and easily countered by simply slugging for a minute.

Horvath: Timer can be subject to change, it will be 40/50/60 seconds on the PTB though for you guys to try it out and offer your feedback

"Question: What led to the decision to put the timer on Decisive Strike?

Horvath: We decided to put a timer on Decisive Strike as one of the solutions to Decisive Strike being used too often, we tried 2 minutes internally and found that players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed"

Bolded the relevant part for emphasis.

BunnyTheHutt

@Nhekii said:

You need to understand that DS is not an anti-tunnel perk. It's a perk designed to grant a survivor 60 seconds of immunity after getting unhooked, not for punishing killers that are tunnelling.

You clearly missed the entire point of the DS if you think that's how DS is suppose too work. It's suppose to be an anti tunneling perk, not a "I played bad but it's ok because I have a get out of jail free card." I agree with OP 100%, I hate hooking 2 people, finding someone on a gen and then getting ds'd because I was "tunneling"

ad19970

I think DS is fine they way it is now. I don't think it has to be a 100% anti tunnel perk and nothing else. It has counterplay, but is still strong. I don't want even less strong perks in this game.

Kwanghyun

100% agreed. It not just punishes the killer for the survivors dumb miatakes but also punishes you for playing well, and limits your momentum. Even if you clearly deserve your downs you just can’t risk picking them up to put them on their 3rd hook in a critical time because of DS. Basically regardless how well you play if they rushing the gens in the backround also, DS makes you loose automatically.

And devs said it is balanced. What a ridiculous statement...It’d be only balanced in it’s current state if they make ebony moris base kit.

Andreyu44

A perk that allows you to free yourself from the killer's shoulders with no risk should not exist.

DelsKibara

As someone who is really fond of Decisive Strike (even as Killer, I don't mind it). This would be a nice change. It would make Decisive Strike only potent on one survivor at a time, because if the killer is doing well, why should he be punished because of mistakes that survivors makes that piles up?

Kinda like this video that Otzdarva just recently uploaded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS7nn1B03YQ&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=XDwRL3quzhitvV-S%3A6

I will add that despite playing both sides, I am more fond of playing survivor. But I do wish the game is harder on survivors making mistakes. Just my own personal opinion

[Deleted User]

It's really awful how survivors can do stupid things right in front of you, make fatal mistakes- but then the killers gets punished for it. The devs said they think that is fine and it blows my mind.

It's like OTZ said the only counter play for DS is to have a Mori- how on earth is that reasonable.

yermom

@Nhekii said:

You need to understand that DS is not an anti-tunnel perk. It's a perk designed to grant a survivor 60 seconds of immunity after getting unhooked, not for punishing killers that are tunnelling.

If that's the case, give them endurance for 60 seconds instead of something that stuns the killer for five seconds for interacting with them. It turns into a ten second stun if they jump into a locker. This doesn't make sense.

If anything, create an icon letting the killer know when the 60 seconds has expired. I've watched videos after the fact, and I will let a survivor go for longer than 60 seconds. It basically gives the survivor power over the killer which doesn't make any sense.

Haku

@Kwanghyun said:

100% agreed. It not just punishes the killer for the survivors dumb miatakes but also punishes you for playing well, and limits your momentum. Even if you clearly deserve your downs you just can’t risk picking them up to put them on their 3rd hook in a critical time because of DS. Basically regardless how well you play if they rushing the gens in the backround also, DS makes you loose automatically.

And devs said it is balanced. What a ridiculous statement...It’d be only balanced in it’s current state if they make ebony moris base kit.

But basically that exactly is that makes the perk so good. The fact you always have to respect. The suggesetion is really bad because from a good perk this will change it to a "oh shiet I hooked this ######### Dwight and I got all their DSs disabled let me go kill them all now". It is still count as tunelling if you see which way the unujured guy went and just go after him. The perk will change from - I use it when I can, to - I use it when the killer says so. That is a big NO. The perk is needed in the current state of the game to make the game atleast bearable for many solos currently with all the camping that is still in game and not punished .... The best example is an ninja who unhooks you near the killer who either gets oneshot or hit twice and then the killer go after you aka tunneling and downs you too. He hooks the first guy and why again he should disable your DS ? What did he do wrong there /the survivor/? There may be comditions but they have to have ABSOLUTELY zero to do with anyone esle but yourself and your actions. You do something and you get punished not the other guy. I am just tired of this "oh let me just heal every time vs Plauge cause I am an idiot and you all have to play like that with me because I say so and I heal in 3 -2-1" style! It just pisses me off so much because I have no saying in it

Best thing all the good killers cam do is promote new changes to the game that will destroy camping in a way and will make that perk less useful and eventualy people will stop use it and then the devs may even increase the gen timers - my dream ! A world where the killer is forced to not tunnel anyone who has be been hooked recently while we compensate that with longer gen times. That is how I play as a killer and that is how I like it

Adeloo

That's exactly what the perk needs ! I never use DS in my normal matches ( no ritual/challenge/achievment/random build) but as a killer it's really frustration when you chased multiples other survivors and hooked one-two in the meantime and still get DS...

Kwanghyun

@Haku said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863326#Comment_863326

But basically that exactly is that makes the perk so good. The fact you always have to respect. The suggesetion is really bad because from a good perk this will change it to a "oh shiet I hooked this ######### Dwight and I got all their DSs disabled let me go kill them all now". It is still count as tunelling if you see which way the unujured guy went and just go after him. The perk will change from - I use it when I can, to - I use it when the killer says so. That is a big NO. The perk is needed in the current state of the game to make the game atleast bearable for many solos currently with all the camping that is still in game and not punished .... The best example is an ninja who unhooks you near the killer who either gets oneshot or hit twice and then the killer go after you aka tunneling and downs you too. He hooks the first guy and why again he should disable your DS ? What did he do wrong there /the survivor/? There may be comditions but they have to have ABSOLUTELY zero to do with anyone esle but yourself and your actions. You do something and you get punished not the other guy. I am just tired of this "oh let me just heal every time vs Plauge cause I am an idiot and you all have to play like that with me because I say so and I heal in 3 -2-1" style! It just pisses me off so much because I have no saying in it

Best thing all the good killers cam do is promote new changes to the game that will destroy camping in a way and will make that perk less useful and eventualy people will stop use it and then the devs may even increase the gen timers - my dream ! A world where the killer is forced to not tunnel anyone who has be been hooked recently while we compensate that with longer gen times. That is how I play as a killer and that is how I like it

Soo good = Overpovered

That’s enough to say. This perk is broken and anyone with a decent level of game sense can see that. Unless they don’t want to because survivor mains...

Camping and farming off people from hooks are already severely punished by taking away points and preventing you from ranking up. You can’t really do anything else in this game. As a result, camping is not common in high ranks. The killer have no reason to do it so, it’s like losing on command. But sure if a teammate starts runing around the hook and the killer gets there too he probably won’t let you get unhooked especially when you’re just about to die. But in that case is’s your teammate who killed you by a terrible play. Killers also won’t lose points for staying near hooks if an other survivor is around. The most common type of camping happens during EGC or in the end game in general when both doors are at 99% and if the killer gets someone still, he has no reason not to camp them to secure at least one kill. Borroved time is still a free escape from that though, but the unhooker always gets traded.

Haku

@Kwanghyun said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863818#Comment_863818

Soo good = Overpovered

That’s enough to say. This perk is broken and anyone with a decent level of game sense can see that. Unless they don’t want to because survivor mains...

Camping and farming off people from hooks are already severely punished by taking away points and preventing you from ranking up. You can’t really do anything else in this game. As a result, camping is not common in high ranks. The killer have no reason to do it so, it’s like losing on command. But sure if a teammate starts runing around the hook and the killer gets there too he probably won’t let you get unhooked especially when you’re just about to die. But in that case is’s your teammate who killed you by a terrible play. Killers also won’t lose points for staying near hooks if an other survivor is around. The most common type of camping happens during EGC or in the end game in general when both doors are at 99% and if the killer gets someone still, he has no reason not to camp them to secure at least one kill. Borroved time is still a free escape from that though, but the unhooker always gets traded.

I mean I really wanted to stop after " severely punished by taking away points and preventing you from ranking up". I don't even know how to comment you on this. You are just so wrong about that ...

First killers and even survivors like to be down the ranks so that is perfect for them. I have to say as a survivor I have way more fun at around 10-12 ranks . Noone is playing too serious there and it is fun. I mean you get literally nothing from being rank 1. NOTHING. About the points - well I was watching a killer camping a survivor for the full time on his both phases and he died at the end. I was far outside the range. The killer ended with 30+ points. So much about "severely punished" my a.... And yes red ranks are just that - every second game some evenings - is camp, camp, camp. You just have no idea. In Europe, server is in Germany, PC. And it is with the first,2nd, 3rd etc hook not during EGC. BT is not an escape from anything because we don't want to run it every single game because killers are camping. This just ruins the fun for me picking perks because we have to deal with camping/tunneling. I just don't run any of them but still after every 3rd game I think about putting back DS literally. But atleast, for now I still can kill myself on the hook right /no punishment /? And yes you described perfecrly my problem how an horrible player would ruin the game for me and you want that to deny me a DS why ? You did not say why? It just another bad idea that gives the killers the control over survivor's perk. It is really terrible idea

Also so good = .... come on we are not about to nerf eveything that is good in this game. Killers have good perks too ...

AkiTheKitten

@Haku said:

I mean I really wanted to stop after " severely punished by taking away points and preventing you from ranking up". I don't even know how to comment you on this. You are just so wrong about that ...

First killers and even survivors like to be down the ranks so that is perfect for them. I have to say as a survivor I have way more fun at around 10-12 ranks . Noone is playing too serious there and it is fun. I mean you get literally nothing from being rank 1. NOTHING. About the points - well I was watching a killer camping a survivor for the full time on his both phases and he died at the end. I was far outside the range. The killer ended with 30+ points. So much about "severely punished" my a.... And yes red ranks are just that - every second game some evenings - is camp, camp, camp. You just have no idea. In Europe, server is in Germany, PC. And it is with the first,2nd, 3rd etc hook not during EGC. BT is not an escape from anything because we don't want to run it every single game because killers are camping. This just ruins the fun for me picking perks because we have to deal with camping/tunneling. I just don't run any of them but still after every 3rd game I think about putting back DS literally. But atleast, for now I still can kill myself on the hook right /no punishment /? And yes you described perfecrly my problem how an horrible player would ruin the game for me and you want that to deny me a DS why ? You did not say why? It just another bad idea that gives the killers the control over survivor's perk. It is really terrible idea

Also so good = .... come on we are not about to nerf eveything that is good in this game. Killers have good perks too ...

Dude DS gives survs invincibility for a full minute and you can't do anything about it, that's broken

Haku

@AkiTheKitten said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/864616#Comment_864616

Dude DS gives survs invincibility for a full minute and you can't do anything about it, that's broken

Well what is broken being on a hook while the Killer is next you and that is how the game ends for you. You have to queue again wait 10+ minutes just to have fun with something you paid for. That is actually broken. The survivor is not invisible - you can still down him aka he can't do anything and he can't magically get up. He needs another buddy to come too. That is 2 people not doing anything. That is great actually for the killer