rezor132
rezor132
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I actually don't understand how you can call his power well-designed if you pick so much disadvantages in it. Let's be honest, FNAF chapter is poorly made, with no such an effort. The map is plain, there is no even a new realm for it, it is not indoor pizzeria etc. Just a small cafe that is not even connected to the 3rd chapter of FNAF. (and let's not forget the fact that FNAF chapter literally was an anniversary chapter in which we didn't get a survivor, so the map issue in this case looks even more sad).
Now, about Springtrap. He really has a lot of problems with his power, like, as you mentioned, invonvenient geometry on a lot of maps, the actions with the axe feel very slow, Springtrap feels very slow, the door travelling feels very slow. I has just played a few games as Springtrap and it was unbearable, by doing any action i feel that i lose very much time. The stealth aspect is not working here too. Survivors know too much, they even can track if Springtrap travells through a door which i think is so uneccesary. His steps are too loud to play stealthy even including the fact that he should be stealthy, it just doesn't work.
Survivors won't interact with the doors just because it's too dangerous and they won't use cameras cause of the same problem. How often do you see office jumpscares? I doubt if too often, personally I witnessed an office Jumpscare only during Springtrap PTB. So, I don't know why, but the devs didn't even think about the fact, that they were going just to lose money for the mechanics that would not be ever used.
I have a lot of takes and other issues about this chapter but won't be describing here. If you are interested in, I posted a complete review on reddit- DbdRezorRreview - Dead by Daylight Springtrap FNAF chapter review (there is also a concept made by me in this channel, the way that Springtrap could be designed in DBD) There is something to read. But the saddest issue is that Springtrap doesn't feel like Springtrap, you don't feel any FNAF spirit while playing him (but you can definetely feel the Huntress + Xenomorph vibes). And even a sadder fact that he won't ever feel like the way he should. The devs will NEVER change anything about him. It's too expensive and too time wasting, it is always more efficient to make new mediocre chapters with hybrid killers but nevermind. The only things that we can wait for is just more useful axe, that's it. Unfortunately we will never get in DBD the Springtrap that we want to see, it's a lost hope but at least i THINK that making his gameplay not so frustrating and slow may be considered by the devs. -
The thing with the Xeno is very essential for the game, Springtrap is literally just better than him, the reason is- poor gamedesign, the devs just made another hybrid killer and now everyone complains about how strong he is, how unbalanced or weak but they should care at least about the gameplay of this killer. You see, if Springtrap will be nerfed, the Xeno will become better than him, or the Huntress. Hybrid killers are connected to their prototypes which can be highlighted if a hybrid gets nerfed, so now it is very difficult for the devs to balance Springtrap, to separate him from the Xeno and etc., so i inironically think that only a rework may help, to make Springtrap more unique and in the same time keep him strong, it will make the balancing a lot easier. At least there should be real reasons to use the doors by survivors, because the doors look basically like risky attractions for the survivors side, they may spot you with the cameras, may not, it doesn't help because the doors are basically next to the gens)) If you lose your undetectable effect it won't bother you, you just reset it with another teleport. More than that, it is always more profitable to just repair gens instead of checking Springtrap on cameras and considering the fact that cameras absolutely do nothing to Springtrap, using them looks even ruinic.
I think the power should be reworked in order to make using cameras ESSENTIAL for surviving, not just a fun activity (the Pinhead's box, the Pig's beartraps, Nemesis' vaccines are interactable by survivors as well but they NEED to interact with them to make the game easier for them, so what's the problem to make cameras in the same way?). Springtrap should rely more on stealth aspect, getting more buffs if he is undetectable, not just throwing an axe, it will make using cameras more reasonable and it will allow the doors be located farther from gens than it is for now. I guess if Springtrap becomes more unique, there will be a lot more option how to balance him in his way but now we can only hope for removing the bugs and nerfing him or buffing, i don't think the devs will use their 'creativity' to solve the root of the problem. -
More than that, when you grab survivors with the axe you become slower and you need more time to hook them. I don't see any reasonable reasons to grab them like that as well. The cameras are awfully useless, it is always better to just repair gens than trying to spot Springtrap on cameras (and it is also too risky by the way). Using doors is great only when you know Springtrap is in the chase or he is hooking another survivor, so on high rank i cannot just see office jumpscare animation, it doesn't exist for me, survivors won't ever use these doors. Feels like the devs paid too low attention to the gamedesign side, I cannot imagine how some of them could think that using cameras in this way can be useful in any way, there are a lot of other examples how you can make interaction with a killer's power useful and neccessary to survive- the Pinhead with the box, Nemesis and Wesker with the vaccines, the Pig with the bear traps, Sadako with the TVs and so on, and Springtrap's power is not in this list of course.
I think just throwing an axe is too plain and there should be given more attention to the doors and interactions with cameras which theoretically can make their using neccessary for survivors. So yeah, i would agree that Springtrap not only doesn't feel good, we need to be more objective here, he is bad, repetative and absolutely not unique, made without any gamedesign effort. (not to mention the new plain map and no survivors in the ANNIVERSARY chapter, which is objectivelly the worst ever) -
I wouldn't agree on the Tattered Tabard one. I wish there were more options to make the knight a set-up killer who can control a map effectively. There will be more reason if the Tabard makes the patrol time much longer and provides some more features with strategical potential
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@MadameExotine said:
I am not sure if this is intentional or accidental part of knight's design, but whenever I play as knight there are at least a couple of times per each match that I can't summon a guard because knight has an invisible hitbox requirement in front of him in order to summon. This makes for some really clumsy moments, when that invisible summoning hitbox interacts with environmental elements a meter or two away, stopping the knight from using his power.
This is particularly bad in indoor maps. I spend 5~10 seconds sometimes wiggling left and right in indoor maps, to find where it lets me summon. And most of the times, it feels inconsistent, without rhyme or reason.
I hope this gets addressed.
This cannot be fixed i guess. Because the knight literally turns into the orb when he uses his power, so a killer cannot stand in a some object, even the nurse and that's why this cannot be fixed without a huge rework of his power. Btw, you can check my rework idea in my previous discussions, i guess i've sloved a lot of current problems with knight there, although it is quiet difficult to make it work in DBD.
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@solarjin1 said:
yeah when i play knight people are extra aggressive.
people really dislike knight because of the 3 gen era but nowadays people hate him more because of his lack of counterplay. Most survivors hate anti loop killers like doc but at least u can pre drop and play around the pallet instead of shift W if u wanted to. The new evolution of killers are area deniers who can force you to leave the loop with little to no effort. Artist, Skull merchant & Knight power give u one option most of time which is to run. Survivors not being able to loop is the equivalent of singularity being cock block by emps. Survivor wanna express their skill by evading attacks and mind gaming around loops which why killers like blight, wesker, hillbilly, huntress, oni and demo are fun to go up against. Most of their chase power force them in one direction for at least a short amount time which give room for dodging. Powers that not engaging or have very weak counterplay will always be dislike to survivors. Legion frenzy (pretty much a free hit if u somewhat near by), trickster in low structure loops, all the area deniers, nurse who pretty much invalidate the typical way of looping.
I guess this is the shame that the devs consider the knight as a strtegic killer, his gameplay mostly depends on closing loops with guard, the patrols are useless to make, they end about in 12 seconds, so there is no strategic potential in that. Recently i posted a big rework idea that can solve most of the knight's problems and make him more difficult and interesting to play, so you can check it in my discussions.
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@Emeal said:
I believe that the developers are deceiving their audience by claiming that they will be able to play strategically by creating patrols.
Not the patrols are strategic, but the place where you put a Guard is.
But the patrols are strategic as well. By creating them you know where the guard will be and what area he will defend and what for.
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@Rickprado said:
After playing for some time with the Knight (i've been playing him constantly since March) , i've come to understand that although this killer can be quite fun and have a very good visual, it has some problems. In order to adress some of these problem, i have some suggestions. Please, consider this topic as an open debate about the Knight current status as a suggestion for a rework.
I will point the issue and the propose a solution:
- Bugged AI
The guards have several bugs in their AI, becoming stuck in parts of the map, going in very strange paths to chase a survivor right in front of them, refusing to pass through windows or pallets to catch a survivor, going all the way around, wasting the hunt.
Of course those bugs needs to be adressed ASAP so we can have a better experience while playing the Knight.
- Addon dependancy
Playing Knight without some addons is a bad. There is three addons that i would say are obligatory on him (in order of importance): Map of The Realm, Call to Arms and Dried Horsemeat.
Map of the Realm (MotR) makes the detection range of your guards bigger. Playing without MotR feels terrible: even when you predict correctly the path that a survivor will make, he/she can dodge a guard easily because of the small detection radious Carnifex and the Assassin have (Jailer can counter this a bit).
Call to Arms (CtA) is what the turns Knight viable against good survivors: The increased speed and range can make you have time to listen and think where the survivors are going; make easier to pressure survivors through the map (while they are healing or doing gens); etc. Knight with Call to Arms is just another killer in terms of strength and map pressure.
Dried Horsemeat is mostly used to make your guards last enough to you do a pincer move on a survivor, specially with the Jailer which has lower speed than the Assassin and Hunt Duration than the Carnifex. Dried Horsemeat can also be used to "snipe" someone at long range, on a generator or healing, as the extra 4s can make the difference between a hit or not
Since these addons are so essencial to the Knight to fix his weakness, mostly of the other addons are rarely used, as if you don't have a good chance to detect a survivor with a guard, you will become just a M1 killer with no power.
My suggestion for this are: Make the Map of the Realm extra detection range basekit, so we can explore more of the Knight addons; change the basekit speed of patrol mode to be the same as when using Call to Arms addons, and leave it as addon for extra range on patrols.
For the Dried Horsemeat, i would suggest something: rework completly this addon and make the extra hunt time tied to total patrol path distance, gaining 1s from 10m total path to 4s at 32m total path. This would incentive Knight players to play more strategically with their power, rewarding then to predict where survivors will go instead of just dropping a guard into a loop (i will talk about that later)
- Three Gening
Knight can be quite annoying while holding a three gen, specially when they are very close to each other. To resolve this issue i propose that you can no longer kick a gen with a guard while using patrol mode - you still can break pallets. This way, if you want to protect a gen with a guard, you would be forced to start a hunt instead of holding it by kicking.
To compensate this, i would give Knight a secondary power:
Guardia Order
When you are up to 16m of a Brekable Wall/Generator/pallet, press the secondary power button to give the guard an order to kick gen/break the pallet. Your order will be directed towards the object which is mostly centered on your screen - highlighted with green. You cannot use your power or Guardia Order while a guard is executing an order or while your power is in cooldown.
This way, Knight could save some time giving orders to guards instead of having to go in patrol mode, but could not use this to hold a generator "hostage" from afar.
- The Guards utility / The Hold W counter
Although i can understand that every guard is tied to a playstile (Carnifex brute force; Assassin fast hits; Jailer scouting + anti-stealth) i think most of the Knight players will agree that the guards that are better in hunts (Carnifex and Assassin) are the guards which most make a difference in a match. Although Jailer can be crucial to get a hunt against of a stealth survivor, his speed and chase duration makes him kinda lackluster when compared to the other two.
Also, another thing that happens with all the guards is that even when the Knight finds the survivors and gets a hunt successfully, if the surv is in a safe loop or have window/pallet to jump, you will be only wasting your time, as he/she can get away from the loop and the guard before you even have the chance to zone them.
To resolve this kinda of problem, i would suggest these changes:
Whenever a guard is actively hunting a survivor, the Knight will get a 3 to 5% haste bonus (tied to total patrol path distance) until the hunt ends.
If a Carnifex is hunting a survivor, the Knight gets 10% longer lunge and 10% pallet break speed;
If the Assassin is hunting a survivor, the Knight jumps through a window 15% faster;
If the Jailer is hunting, every survivor within 4m of the Jailer have his/hers aura revelead to the Knight for 2s. Also, the Jailer would chase with a 4.2m/s speed for 18s seconds, having the same detection range as the other guards (considering that Map of The Realm would be basekit).
- Dropping a guard into a loop
As far i understand that this can be countered in some ways, just dropping a guard into a loop is part of what makes the Knight boring to face, as some people say (i don't totally agree). To adress this - considering all the buffs above - i would put a restriction on the minimum distance the Knight would be able to drop a guard: you have to draw at least 10m of path to deploy a guard. Until you haven't drawn 10m of patrol path, you can end patrol mode; if the patrol times end and you haven't drawn at least 10m of patrol path, your power enters in a cooldown, no guard is deployed and you can't use your power for 3 seconds.
This would force Knight to play more strategically than just dropping a guard into a loop everytime.
Well, thats all for now. I really LOVE the idea of this Killer (power and visual) and i really want this game to improve and get to a healthier state.
Lets discuss! Hope you guys are fine!! Thanks
Hello. As i see you understand the main problems of the knight, especially his anti-looping gameplay. You try to make him more strategic, to devide on different parts of map. But for this the knight needs complete rework. Actually, yesterday i posted the knight rework which makes him play strategically +i solved the 3 gen problem as well, as i think. So hope you will like it, you can check it in my discussions in my profile or find it.
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@Halloulle said:
From what I gather the consensus seems to be yes - but maybe that's bias. So I figure I make a poll.
Feel free to elaborate on why you picked the option you picked.
Of course she does. I guess the skull merchant is a fatal mistake, showing how the game designers are lazy or talentless. Actually i have an idea of her rework, maybe gonna post it sometime hoping the devs will catch some inspiration from it. Actually, as i said earlier, these game designers should be fired and replaced with fresh minds, that's it.
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@egg_ said:
Knight's most efficient gameplay style while chasing a survivor is to drop a guard at a loop to shut it down, letting all the work be done by the AI with minimal brain input from the player itself. The fact that this gameplay encourages W gaming and, if not in close range to another loop, a free hit/down, is simply bad design. In fact, the majority of the playerbase isn't happy with that killer at all, as proved by the huge amount of negative feedback received.
Anywae, what it should be like is that guards shouldn't be able to down survivors. Buff their utility if you want, buff their movement speed. Let that bot (who am I refering to with this, the AI or the Knight player?) get the the free injury, but why should they get also a free down?
Knight's guards shouldn't be any different than Legion's frenzy tbh
In my opinion the knight should be reworked, hes literally boring because of need to placa guards just next to survivors in chase. Actually you can check my rework idea in the discussion i created earlier
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@Boons123 said:
Instead of fixing the problem, you cut it off
In this case, the game will become boring
And I don't think anyone is willing to spend 450 seconds fixing 5 generators per match
Survivors have fun when they finish off the generators quickly
So the game will shift from trying to prevent the survivors from escaping to the game where the killer must stand up to the bullying survivors and this will make the game die
In this idea generator addons will replace generator perks and there will be more fun because killers will affect generators but it will be connected with their power so trials will be rather different for each killer. And don't forget that there can be more generator addons than one and a player will be able to choose how he gonna play
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@FeryGEN said:
Why does he need a meme addon, Knight himself Meme)
True. Anyway i would like to see a new way to play the knight.
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Good point, In my opinon if they release the chapter in date they plan to release it will be a terrible idea. The killer design just is not ready and the power design is just boring and talentless and the music is....... So well, I've already said what the devs must to do in discussion i started so maybe if someone of them read this comment or the discussion overthink please, you are going to lose very much money soon or later and community trust.
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Guys, if you like the rework, please share it with your friends or in other discussions, in my opinion it is not so difficult for the devs make this rework if the community will like it.
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Hello, i made a small rework for the knight, you can check it in my profile, i guess the main problem of the knight is his inability to play strategically, he usually is used to close loops or just help the knight catch a survivor (if the guard find him), but what if the knight could play in trapper or hag style...(check my rework discussion)
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@Kaffry said:
The Knight doesn’t need a rework, the entire chapter does.
Yeah, the map is not so good too but the knight is the main part of the chapter u_u so he really should be reworked, he is too boring to play in my opinion