thatkatemain2468
thatkatemain2468
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WXNVJ6EXT0&list=PLBS8ru85UBhltd3LftYEbCV9Hsv8yAPHh&index=24&pp=iAQB
watch this video in the most articulate version of my entire point. and yes, i discovered this thought from him and its been on my mind for a long time.
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@Vorahk08 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652608#Comment_3652608
You keep insisting that this isn't about skill, yet the crux of your argument is that survivor skill should play a part in whether they win or lose. Here, you're ignoring the fact that these killers are designed around you learning new techniques and skills to outplay them.
"the killer role in general doesnt really take any skill." This is completely false and insulting to killer players. It's probably also why you struggle against them. You should try to learn how they play so you can better counter them. I already discussed how all of these killers actually have very high skill expression and take practice to get good at. If the killer player is more skilled at their killer, then they beat the survivors.
As to usually losing at least one team mate every game, BHVR have said multiple times that they want the average kill rate to be 60%, so you should be losing survivors almost every game. It's a multiplayer survival horror game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652628#Comment_3652628
It's not guaranteed if it takes skill to use. They're good at their killer, and it sounds like you don't have enough skill to play around them yet. Keep trying to learn something, and you'll gradually find they aren't free at all, and you can control whether they get a hit or not.
again, those killers take zero skill and are designed for players who have never held a controller befor to be able to pick up a stick and excel from jump. the reason this is about skill is because killers who take zero skill and have zero RELIABLE counterplay is unfun to play against. not because dying of even teamwiping is unfun but because nothing that i do has any weight as to the games outcome, for the most part.
this is not an insult to killer players. the fact that playing killer has a skill ceiling that my child who is just past potty trained can easily reach and dominate in public games is simply being honest. if we were to make a comparison to a sport, to excel at the killer role means you need to be good enough to make the JV high school football team. but in order to be good at survivor you need to have the same skills and attributes as Tom Brady. in every aspect, from dexterity and skill with the controls, to game mechanics and fundamentals, to learning an individual killers power the role is easy. it has to be, if it wasnt the devs wouldnt be able to hold their 60% kill rate in the basement well and force it to "rub the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again", ya dig?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653242#Comment_3653242
A game without progression is a game that only lives for a short amount of time. People need something to work towards or they'll feel like there is not much point in playing at all.
counter strike deathmatch has been going for 25 years and hasnt seen an update in over 20. economies in games create selfishness. why do you think every MMO forum has players crying about toxic elitists and content sellers? simple is good, simple is better. we play this game for fun. only the bozos play to stack up purple flashlights or iri addons for the toon they wish they could be in real life. selfish incentives ruin team oriented games. period.
i will admit that this doesnt relate at all to making solo queue better. sorry to send the train up the wrong track.
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also, let survivors see what their teammates perks are in he lobby and make an absolutely unmissable promt that tells survivors when ANY buff from their team is in play. No One Left Behind is useless in solo since nobody know you have it. thats just a single example. and when i say unmissable i mean when you are unhooked by someone with Well Make It a massive thunderstorm animation comes up and a voice sings in a heavy metal song DONT RUN TO CHINA THEY HEAL FAST AS ######### BOIIIII while playing a Metallica-esq guitar riff. Ok, a little extreme but you get the point.
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remove the ENTIRE progression system and all dailies and challenges. if the bloodweb, item counts, lost purple flashlights, need to get to P100, focusing on personal objectives, farming teammates, cleansing all 5 totems at the start, running to basement for a glyph, having to open a door with a character you dont like, playing a role or killer you dont like, i could go on for hours...
i have NEVER in 6 years played in a group of randoms in custom games and had a single person EVER, not even once get salty about losing or salty about ANYTHING for that matter. just saying. the game is supposed to be fun. endless grinds and incentive have no place in a game that is played for fun. nobody works at McDonalds all day cuz its fun only to donate their paycheck to charity.
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@Vorahk08 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652424#Comment_3652424
May I ask if you've ever played as these killers, and if so what is your play experience is as them?
Apart from Skull Merchant, people don't mass DC against these other killers. I've also never seen anyone brag about making survivors DC'ing here. Fun is highly subjective, and fun-to-go-against even more so. In general, though, I've seen very few people outright say these killers are unfun to go against, aside from Twins, Knight, and SM.
Almost all of these killers, apart from Knight and Skull Merchant require varying levels of skill to use effectively. Trickster requires a lot of skill to be able to hit survivors with successive knife hits to get the injury and down. Twins are often described as being clunky to play as and often require the player to heavily rely on slugging a large number of people, which is high-risk high-reward. Xeno also requires skill to aim the tail and know when to use it, not to mention using the tunnels to patrol the map effectively. Pinhead needs to learn how to both get the portal to open in the right place and get it to hit the survivor, and on top of that he needs to play a macro game to keep survivors off the box. Artist requires players to make accurate placements to gut up close injuries, and proper reads to hit bird snipes. Dredge has to play around locker spawns and loops because he's an M1 killer. Singularity requires a lot of game sense, knowledge of the macro-game, and quick response times to maintain map pressure.
If these killers get you with their power, it's because they outplayed you, not because they were using "God Mode."
Killers don't play four 1v1's. They play a 4v1. They need to be able to down survivors quickly so they can move on to the next one, and powers that allow them to do so are a part of the game.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
i also forgot to address the "they outplayed you" part of this. all of these killers get guaranteed damage which survivors have zero ability or control to avoid. thats not being outplayed, thats facing a killer with a poor and unfun design.
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@Vorahk08 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652424#Comment_3652424
May I ask if you've ever played as these killers, and if so what is your play experience is as them?
Apart from Skull Merchant, people don't mass DC against these other killers. I've also never seen anyone brag about making survivors DC'ing here. Fun is highly subjective, and fun-to-go-against even more so. In general, though, I've seen very few people outright say these killers are unfun to go against, aside from Twins, Knight, and SM.
Almost all of these killers, apart from Knight and Skull Merchant require varying levels of skill to use effectively. Trickster requires a lot of skill to be able to hit survivors with successive knife hits to get the injury and down. Twins are often described as being clunky to play as and often require the player to heavily rely on slugging a large number of people, which is high-risk high-reward. Xeno also requires skill to aim the tail and know when to use it, not to mention using the tunnels to patrol the map effectively. Pinhead needs to learn how to both get the portal to open in the right place and get it to hit the survivor, and on top of that he needs to play a macro game to keep survivors off the box. Artist requires players to make accurate placements to gut up close injuries, and proper reads to hit bird snipes. Dredge has to play around locker spawns and loops because he's an M1 killer. Singularity requires a lot of game sense, knowledge of the macro-game, and quick response times to maintain map pressure.
If these killers get you with their power, it's because they outplayed you, not because they were using "God Mode."
Killers don't play four 1v1's. They play a 4v1. They need to be able to down survivors quickly so they can move on to the next one, and powers that allow them to do so are a part of the game.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
i havent really played killer since dedicated servers became a thing. but my daughter who button mashes gets 200 kills a week farming points for me. the killer role in general doesnt really take any skill. sub par killer players can mop elite teams on a consistent basis but good survivor teams still lose at least one player more than 50% of the time. again, this isnt about skill, winning or losing. its about fun. all of the killers i mentioned have some type of kit which puts survivors in a hold W and pray situation almost every single chase. that is not fun. i dont care about opinion when the sheer fact is that survivors skill should play a huge part in winning and losing and against these killers it does not.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652467#Comment_3652467
Some of those are among the most counterable killers in the game, though, and some of them don't even have a loop power to begin with- like Sadako.
What makes them killers that make looping obsolete?
sadako is not but the rest are for sure. xeno ingnores pallets and most loops by reaching over and traversing the map with ease. low TR and passive ability with very high uptime which requires no action to use. chucky, low TR faster moves and charge that ignores pallets and windows. singularity, teleports to survivors with imunity to pallets and increased movement speed. SM, nuff said. Knight, guards last forever. even though touching a hooked survivor makes them despawn theyre not a fun mechanic and dont have a reliable counterplay. trickster, artist, pinhead, pyramidhead, nemesis if u vault u get hit, if u drop the pallet u get hit. hold W and pray=not fun.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652439#Comment_3652439
Which killers are you referring to, though?
Every killer in the game has some level of counterplay, you'll need to be more specific before people know what you're talking about.
(almost)every killer since Oni. no killer since him has a realistic and/or reliable strategy to beat. they all come down to things like RNG and does the team split up and have 100% uptime on either being in chase or fixing gens. most of the time one teammate spending 60 seconds not doing obj will secure at least one kill for the killer. those killers secure hits that survivors have zero chance to prevent and absolutely no control over. that to me is not fun.
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can anyone copy and paste where in the post i said this was about anti loop killers? its about unfun killers who have no real tactical counterplay other than get as much distance as you can and pray the randoms split up and do gens because even a 5 year old can close chase against pros in less than 20 seconds on a very consistent basis. killers whom "survivor skill" has absolutely no weight in the outcome of a match.
listen, any killer that my daughter(who is in kindergarten) can consistently 4K with while having no real concept of game mechanics or fundamentals is poorly designed. this isnt about winning or losing for the 50th time. its about boring and stale gameplay. mind games and outplaying your opponent is what makes this game fun. killers with no tactics for either side are not fun.
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@xEmoGirlxAlexisx said:
The only thing im reading is " Remove Killers Who has Antiloop and Map Control make more Killers i can loop for ever so i hv easier Chance to escape whitout any Skill "
Anti loop and Map control is the thing that makes some Killers good at against highrank Survivor and even then there are Killers who have both and are still Bad against Highrank ( like my 2 Mains Dredge and Singularity )
And whit all of the 2nd Chance Perks Survivors have u need a Killer whit a decent Anti loop or Chase Power look at the god Window at Garden of Pain or Haddonfield a M1 Killer like Sadako cant do anything against it
thats because your comprehensive reading skills are severely sub par. this isnt about balance or who should win more. its not about buffs and nerfs. its about unfun mechanics that lead to extremely stale gameplay for survivors and killers alike.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651942#Comment_3651942
"Fun to play as/against" is very subjective and each people has different opinions about that.
i understand that. can we take a vote as to who thinks Trickster, Knight, Twins, Xeno, Pinhead, Skull Merchat, Artist, Dredge, and Singularity are amongst the most fun killers to play against? The person who brags about winning due to excessive survivor DCs or hook suicides is having as much fun as the team they beat. Nobody respects a CoD or Halo players skill who would say "I have 1000 kill streak with God mode mode enabled. i wonder why everyone keeps leaving the lobby".
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OK, Nurse Blight Plague Wesker Spirit Billy Huntress, all very strong killers. None of which fall into the topic of this thread. All very fun to play as and against with unique powers to shut down chases without making looping obsolete.
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@Xendritch said:
I wanna know what killers were "designed" to camp and tunnel.
It seems like such a nonsense claim when most killers can't use their power around hooked survivors.
tunnel was the wrong word, i meant slug. Slugging is a pressure tactic but the Twins entire playstyle is designed around it which makes them extremely unfun. How much fun is it to bleed out 9 out of 10 times you lose to a specific killer?
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@glitchboi said:
I disagree, we need more anti-loop killers, especially ones that can guarantee hits through windows and pallets and forcefully zoning the survivors, surely that'll be interactive for both sides!
anti loop killers are not the answer. those combined with excessive slow downs and gen oppression perks are what make the game suck for any low-mid tier team not in comms. a better way to look at this is survivors buy time with looping. killers need to be able to shut down chase and build pressure to force survivors off their objective in order to win. anti gen and anti healing perks are unfun(in my opinion) and not the answer to winning.
instead killers need perks and powers to help close chases and force survivors into doing something other than gens to buy the killer precious time. thats why things like the vaccine/spray/cube/bear trap are very cool concepts we should see more of and things like machinegun throwing knives, tentacle whip, crows, remnant, drones, guards, remote camera tags, tail whips, and scamper which all ignore pallets and windows(the survivors only two resources, one of which is very limited) tend to be more frustrating than fun to play against. lets not forget this thread was about making the game more fun, not allowing either side to win more often or with greater ease.
do all of the afore mentioned mechs have counterplay? yes, to a degree. but how many times can you fake a window or shift direction befor the killer learns what you are going to do? Tofu made a video a while back covering why the killer themes were getting to be less or even unfun. this is sort of the same idea. i just think that killers should win more by skill in chase and forcing survivors off the main objective and survivors should win by looping and working as a team and not wasting time. i dont want to play a game where my win is in the same category as buying a scratch ticket, i want to think what i do affects the outcome of a match but the game is often not like that anymore which is what makes it feel unfun.
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i guess the theory of this isnt that great because unless you are in comms or at the absolute highest MMR then even with We'll Make It teammates run from the hook on the top deck of the Thompson house all the way to the basement on The Game befor they let us heal them even if the killer is shown in chase with all 5 of the obsessions in lower temple of Red Forest. Anyway, you get the point. Teammates dont let us heal them as long as medkits, boons, and self care exist.
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@Pulsar said:
The idea you're trying to get to his to have Autodidact guarantee at least 1 skill check per heal.
However, you insulted C3, therefore, I sentence you to Solo Q for all eternity.
i didnt insult him, i just assumed he was a child because posting pictures with a saying on it is something children do. adults would state their claim using sentences. maybe i was wrong and he is just lazy. who knows.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Mm I think C3tooth is right (and a good artist), no idea what you're talking about OP. Autodidact is the solution for what exactly? Base healing times didn't get nerfed they justbreworked medkits and CoH to nerf self heals.
And auto didact has always been kind of meh. But the skill checks trigger regularly enough. I usually get 2-3 on my first heal so when first heal is finished I've removed the detrimental skill checks and then my healing flies all game. Don't get what the issue is.
youve never got 3 tokens in 1 heal with Autodidact, stop the cap please.
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And honestly because Resilience is my only do-or-die perk that i never sub and Im as comfortable with playing injured as Sponge Bob is walking around his pineapple in his underwear Id rather the 50% healing speed only work on other survivors, not for self healing but retain some of the medkit efficiency. Though Im not sure that wouldnt be an abuseable mechanic at the highest tier game play.
Just my opinion though.
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@jesterkind said:
I'm always consistently surprised that people don't see how strong Botany Knowledge is. Sure, it isn't overpowered in medkit builds anymore, but it isn't even that it went from overpowered to useless in that context- it's still very good, you just have to compensate for it with a second perk or extra charges (the latter being, admittedly, less of a thing now; still one speedy heal, though).
A flat 50% healing speed bonus that applies everywhere, with the literal only downside being that you have to work a little harder to use it with medkits specifically, is a really, really good perk. It shines much more altruistically, but it's not even as though you have to use it that way, it even works on yourself.
Medkits could stand to be more different through the rarity tiers, though, no real arguments there.
i am strictly a solo survivor so i never bring an item just because not only is my escape rate less than 1/20 matches but due to having teams almost every match that i can tell within the first 60 seconds of the trial they have less than 20 hours played i end up killing myself on first hook befor a single gen is done like 40% of the time. In the rare occurrence this doesnt happen the times i need a medkit are only when resetting myself is a 911 situation and it comes from a chest so the brown medkits dont cut it, which are the most likely to find. And actually now no medkit will cut it while using botany.
My 4 main perks are Botany Knowledge, Desperate Measures, Bond(sometimes sub for Leader or WGLF), and Resilience. I dont need perks with a good team so I only use those to heal faster since most of my teammates wont even attempt to play the game while injured.
I guess this is how I formed this sort of bias opinion.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The thing with Botany is that while I wish the efficiency debuff wasn’t there, making it 50% healing speed necessitated that the downside exist. It’s too powerful (especially for self-healing) for it not to have a downside.
I’m all for removing the penalty (because it does feel pretty bad to play with especially if you pull a medkit out of a chest), but then the heal speed needs to be reduced. Which I’d personally be fine with.
so why didnt they just remove the medkit efficiency and maintain the 33%, or even drop it to 25%? Bro listen, if you go to the doctor with an ingrown toenail the doctor should offer a little more realistic solution than "We're going to amputate your leg!".
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This man gives the most intelligent breakdown of Dead By Daylight I have ever come across in my 7 years playing this game.