worldnamer
worldnamer
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Honestly most of these ideas are a no from me but I'd love to get an impact grenade. The current grenade is great but many room designs exploit the way they have a delayed explosion. Impact grenade solves that issue. (This is similar to the "sticky" grenade above.)
If I had a second item to add to the game, it would be a set of infinite use goggles that let you see the HRV path. I don't think it would be an incredible item but I think some people would use it and it gives BHVR a lot of latitude to ignore scripted HRV deaths. After that, I'd say a flash bang that dazes all guards in line of sight.
I think there should be a lot of upgrades for stuff that doesn't currently have upgrades - increasing the duration your grappling hook can grab, the speed at which it reels you in, adding fire or acid resistance to your suit (which you would have to swap out). There's a few really interesting possible angles.
But all that has to come with a decent number of new threats for builders. I have a feeling this new laser trap won't shift the meta much. Builders need switch activated traps, time delayed traps, more types of effective traps, and frankly, more block types before you can get too wild with equipment. But the future is very bright for the extensibility of the game.
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@zbord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3425876#Comment_3425876
Thanks for the mention, but mine was more simple. a "ride" sign with a sequence of claws pulling the raider through corridors lined with corrosive cubes.
On topic I've noticed many of the brutal outposts I've recently gone through have had 5+ modded warmongers just bull rushing single block wide corridors right at the start or when retrieving the GenMat.
Re: Warmongers, that's actually pretty funny. Usually I see these as a delayed thing, coming to harass you from behind once you enter the base. But this sounds more like "HELO FREN LET MONGER HUG YOU WITH BLADE ARMS"
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@Seraphor said:
While proximity to other traps does have a difficulty multiplier, proximity to other traps of the same type doesn't increase that.
I'm not too bothered with the Plasma Sentinel. For 70 is provides area denial, much the same as an Incinerator.
Incinerators are also a little bit more overpowered than I'd like, but despite that, Plasma Sentinels are just better than flamethrowers. They have full directional range and cover a radial area that's larger than the linear area of a flamethrower. Plasma Sentinels have projectiles that go through magnetic shields and have more range. This isn't to say that incinerators aren't also great, but if you're going pound for pound, the Plasma Sentinel is the winner.
I think it's worth noting that Plasma Sentinels without the AoE modifier aren't NEARLY as bad, and are absolutely 50 point traps. The issue is this specific mod. I would hazard that the vast majority of Sentinels are using it. And I think the trap (and even the mod) is doing something interesting in the game, I just think they need balancing to reduce low-effort "just throw a bunch of second-wave Sentinels in a room and call it a day" bases.
But even if you think the Sentinel is just fine as it is, my larger point is that the more copies you have of a single trap in the same area, the more likely there's a game balance issue. I've seen broken rooms that are just 20 Enforcers with armor in a large flat room, and that was just as busted.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/375310/block-count-limit-within-range
"Alternatively, greatly increase the threat of a trap once more than a specific number within a given range exist. (This may prove challenging, as I know that the threat calculation function is already running pretty long.)"
- this is already in the game
"Alternatively, increase the cost of the Plasma Cloud mod. All high-end bases are using it excessively and that very much indicates a balance issue."
- the mod cost honestly is fine. the base cost is what we need to adjust. it's not a 50 point trap. it has 5.5 block SPHERICAL range base. it has the ability to become area denial for 20 additional points. the other go to area denial trap is incinerators which are base 70 cost for 4 block range in a LINE, it's not a fair balance of their cost to ability to deny areas. i have a post regarding raisng the base cost of plasma if you're interested in looking at it and giving it some traction. but i think that 20 points for a mod is good, 25 would be the absolute highest i'd want to see.
Regarding this already being in the game, I would suggest that whatever algorithm there is is not doing a good enough job, to the point that it doesn't feel like there's a modifier. This comes from experiencing a room with roughly 16 plasma sentinels in the same room.
I completely understand about trying to keep the mod cost under 25. That's a pretty good point. Maybe instead of increasing mod cost, something like duration of cloud could be looked at. Or, as you mention, increasing the base cost of the sentinel. I'll look at your post.
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The rewards are, I'm afraid, not real. Let me explain.
There are only three resources in this game. They are cells, Synthite, and rank. Everything else is an illusion of game design. Cells are there to give a sense of progression. Synthite is there to prevent people from overloading the system with low-quality bases. Rank is there for endgame.
I'm 100 hours in, and I have maxed pretty much everything on the list. I have all the traps and guards, all the trap mods, most of the guard mods. I have all my weapons maxed out, all my suits maxed out. So the cells grind is an illusion that goes away quickly.
Synthite is rare but at best you're looking at a friend spending 30 minutes building a large brutal base (and spending 1000 synthite for it) to give you 100 Synthite. And it's not like XP/resource farms don't already exist in the game. So Synthite is an illusion too.
So that just leaves rank. Nothing all that important is tied to rank - maybe some skins which would be more easily obtained by just grinding Small/Normal bases until you're Gold. I'm already there, and it's only gotten easier. However, if this is a sticking point, there's an easy fix. Just make shared games not count for rank. This would be fine.
If I'm being very honest, the idea that social maps don't let you acquire the tombs is just designer fear and not a real concern. That restriction should be lifted, and then you can add linking to the social system and suddenly everything is fine.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3424907#Comment_3424907
you should come hang out in twitch chat with the night-time group. we exchange maps all the time, play eachothers stuff, you won't get resources but you will get feedback from strong players and the entertainment of watching streamers play them live.
Is there a Discord? 'cause I would love to chat with people but don't really do Twitch.
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I actually love this idea.
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@Alertix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3424113#Comment_3424113
Yes it is still in game just, they patched a key mechanism the trap could've had as a function/mod or upgrade. Rather than add it the patched it out entirely is what I was referring to, not that they removed the cube.
Having played against the many clones of the second-wave corrosive cube exploit, I look forward to people using this cube in new ways. I saw a really cool base that was Brutal difficulty that used it for a two-way base where the way you entered was a jumping puzzle and the other path was a killbox, and it was lovely. I died like eight times trying to get the jumping down, but it was super fun.
And hunter and iron claw still go through the cubes, they just can't target you until you're in the open. I think maybe what you're highlighting is that there's a lack of significant mods on most traps and guards? Like, second wave, sure. But then after that, I'd say most of the mods for the cube feel unimpactful. Hardened is pretty situational, and opaque is good, but again, pretty narrow in its applications. And splatter feels a little underwhelming. Whereas the bolttrap mods are much more valuable, each having a pretty good impact.
A mod that makes a single corrosive cube transparent to traps and doesn't double stack with other corrosive cubes, even with those with this modifier, would be fine, in my opinion, if it doesn't stack with opaque. Opaque should always block LOS. But given that there's all those exceptions that would need for the mod to be balanced, I can understand why they simply patched the behavior out.
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@Alertix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3423326#Comment_3423326
Ended up finding the post on Twitter yesterday, thank you for pointing me in the right direction! Today they've patched out the corrosive cube all together, which means back to more boring bases. Instead of taking it out they should've allowed us to upgrade the cube to function like that as an intended mechanic. Big missed opportunity though imo, hopefully they make up for it by actually fixing the more serious issues.
I believe the cube is still in the game. Just not that specific bug.
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@5P4RK4 said:
Maybe its the arc barrier being OP but damn katana and shield is so strong. With both fully upgraded, there is very little you can't handle and its extremely rare that I will switch out for the harpoon.
The trick to incinerators is that you have to trust in the shield and not attack until the fire is done. It also completely trivializes hook traps.
The boosts in the melee suit are the thing that make it shine. Being able to maintain the speed boost, use the barrier to get through the jams, and use the katana to get 'extra chances' with the deflect is ///extremely/// powerful. The addition of grenades to take over where you would want a ranged option is great too.
How do you handle killboxes? It feels like incinerators, iron claws, and plasma sentinels all ruin this, but maybe I'm just not good enough?
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There are many people who have stated that the corrosive cube exploit is a top issue for them, so I understand why BHVR have made it a priority. (The patch speed does leave a lot to be desired.)
I would honestly be okay with traps targeting through a single corrosive cube that does not have the opaque mod. More than that and you end up with really bad bolt traps that can only be solved by one tool in the game, which is bad. Bolt traps themselves are really bad, and until they fix them, Magnetic Link needs to be able to work through walls but I do see that as secondary to the corrosive cube issue.
Also, I think people forget that corrosive cubes are exceptionally deadly even without the ability for traps to shoot through them. I have died / I have bases where people die to them even without iron claw traps, even without double stacking them. They're 15 points for a cube that creates terrain, potentially kills, and creates an eerie light in your base. They're fine without additional traps.
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Beyond the digging up the commentary on what Behavior is working on and what the devs have said, etc, there's some pretty clear logical conclusions you can draw, just with the information you have in front of you.
Corrosive cubes block line of sight for traps. You may not like that design, but that is how they act. Now, there's one situation where corrosive cubes don't block line of sight, and it's only if you use a specific mod, and only after you grab the genmat.
Now, you could say "oh, corrosive cubes don't block line of sight after the genmat is picked up!" But they do! Only those marked "second-wave" have this bug. First wave cubes block los after you pick up the genmat. So the second-wave mod is changing their transparency for trap los.
You could say "oh, this must be intended for the second wave mod" but literally this is the only second-wave mod that does anything other than reveal the trap after a short delay. No other blocks change their mechanics from first to second wave.
Look at Reddit, Steam, this forum, or Twitter, and everyone who talks about this understands this is an exploit. Let me turn this around on you, and ask why on earth do you think this is intended behavior?
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Yeah, hey, if they add it, it's not like I'd be mad, I think more utility is generally a good thing. Just wasn't really thinking about the whole hourly updating my bases. I'm too lazy for that, but it makes sense. 😂
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/375032/the-state-of-melee
the game is a "bring the correct tools to the task to make your job easier" scenario. some things are suited for melee, guard fights for example. BAM BAM armor break, dead instant. or rushing halls, SWING SWING SWING SWING just spam lunging. but plasma and fire are a weak point. but since co-ops and solos play the same game and single/double fire traps only reset on TPK and co-ops have limitless revives, multi-fire traps like plasma and incinerators are currently meta to prevent outposts from being trivialized. it is your choice to take the hard route and refuse to use the free equipment swap offered at every respawn. it is also you choice to continue doing an outpost that your equipment is not well suited too. you can always back out of it and come back once you have more gear or practice. i've seen dual sword builds tear through some of my hardest content, i've seen it done with two guns, a gun and shield, a sword and shield. everything is possible. but dual sword was deffinately the HARDEST way to take it on, but still possible.
perhaps the bad melee spot you feel is actually a desire to have melee be all around good when this is a pick the right tool for the task style game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3423178#Comment_3423178
the extended range can be rough to deal with i normally see it handled by sword users with either a grenade, or patiently timed grapples to take down piston blockades and then as it powers down they grapple it and lunge before it can activate.
can you elaborate on the compass issue? sounds like you may have located a bug.
for the lunge thing that has to do with where you target, look at the edge of the block next to it to prevent the lunge, but it's treating you as having "targeted" the trap for a lunge, so it goes to that.
There have been lots of reports of input eating, on swords, shields, and guns, push button, might hear a sound or see the animation even, could even give it a cool down/reload, but won't actually go off.
First off, great post, I just wanted to respond to a piece, because it's been haunting me for a bit.
"perhaps the bad melee spot you feel is actually a desire to have melee be all around good when this is a pick the right tool for the task style game."
I have been wrestling with this question for like a week now, and what I've come to, is that I don't know any situation where sword is the right answer. For many cases, it's decidedly the wrong answer. I don't know cases where gun is the wrong answer. Let me unpack what I mean.
The best performing situation for sword is arenas. Basically, rooms that have a number of guards set up for you to deal with who have different elevations and using both melee and ranged units. Sword has glitches that get you killed, a defensive secondary that doesn't work well with melee (the arc barrier), and match ups that are much harder than with the ranged approach. If I'm facing a room full of guards, I do not want a sword, I want a plasmabow. The bow will be much safer, have better results, allow you to pare down the opposition, and from relative safety. The thing you do get out of sword is to fly like a maniac through the room and if you don't get grappled, shot down by an overload of projectiles, or cornered to death by flamethrowers, then you get to win. Can you beat very hard arenas with a sword? Absolutely. Is it easier than using the ranged options? I feel like it's not.
On the other side, you get to break traps without worrying about ammo, so that's nice, but when is sword actually better than bow for that? You have to be very near a trap to hit it with a sword, and that exposes you to any additional traps targeting that cube. It's very easy to end up in a spot where you died because you smashed the wrong trap. That just doesn't happen with a bow. Yes, the arc barrier makes up for a lot of those situations, but I'm not sure why arc barrier and volt lancer would be worse there.
It's possible that I just don't understand the circumstances swords shine in very well. But I primarily run double gun right now and it feels like the only challenges I can't tackle with that are ones where I need an arc barrier, not a sword. And if sword is never the answer, then the original point about this being a right-tool-for-the-job game doesn't seem like it holds up.
Annnyway, respect, your post has lots of good points. Just chewing on this specific issue because I don't have a good answer there.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3422906#Comment_3422906
there is a section of people who hunt tombs and prefer large maps because they have 3 of them. I target maps that are under 100M agressively, prefer to run things under 200. my average run is 2-4 minutes in a brutal and i don't see me running 2 dangerous in that same timeframe or 3 normals.
For sure for sure. It depends on the normals / dangerous levels obviously, and I respect the synthite grind, it's a mood. I just never do brutals in 2-4 minutes - it's usually 10-20 minutes, and in that time I can definitely do two to three dangerous bases.
But it's not actually even about that for me - for me, large bases mean that if I screw up and I die, I am gonna have to walk back all that way to pick up where I died. The longer the base is, the more painful that is. And don't even get me started on mazes, which happen far more often on large maps. Killboxes are more fun than mazes, and I find killboxes to be boring.
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The input glitching is the WORRRST. I have had it where I literally can't get it to fire/swing. Except with bow, that glitch means I have to retreat, and with sword that usually means I die.
I guess my question is more about attempting to bring the melee effectiveness *on par* with ranged. Not so much saying that you can't do bases WITH melee, but that it feels like skating uphill, and since there's only two suits, it does make it feel like you can either pick the right one or the wrong one.
I would hope they at least make it feel better. There's a dozen things I would fix - speeding up the sword swings for both sword types, replacing Frenzy with a skill that makes you immune to fire/acid for x amount of time per rank, and making it so you can melee but not shoot through arc barrier are my three starting suggestions.
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I definitely get raids overnight, usually from people who work odd shifts or are located in other countries. And I definitely get raids even though I don't hand clean every hour or two. I 100% respect that these things might get you more raids, and I respect if you do that micro to get more genmat or whatever. I just haven't thought about it super hard, so maybe that's a thing you might want to do but the last thing I wanna do is write a schedule for a level I designed.
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Why would you disable your outposts? Why not just let them run?
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Agreed that there should be another category for bases above dangerous and below brutal.
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An official statement HAS been made. This IS an exploit. They are working on patching it.
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Every time you modify your traps / guards in your base it recalculates the difficulty rating. However, that calculation can take a few seconds. If you continually tinker with your base, that calculation starts over any time you make a change. Because of that, it's possible to see your base as one difficulty, leave, then realize it's never been that difficulty.
You can see when it is doing the calculations by noticing that the Minimum Defenses criteria has moved from yellow to orange. This will let you see when it's safe to check the base difficulty and when it's not done calculating yet. Once it moves back to yellow, it has updated your base difficulty level appropriately. A minor annoyance, but definitely not the delay you're seeing. Hope this helps!
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Honestly I think people neglect that a large chunk of brutal bases are built on "Large" burial sites, and the levels are just long. Like, I could play three different levels at Dangerous difficulty for the time it takes to run one Brutal base. I'd get better GenMat, a more diverse play experience, and if I have to stop in the middle, I don't lose everything. Like, your 30 minute adventure isn't for everyone.
I do run Brutal bases but usually as a change of pace where I know what I'm getting into is long-form content. Outside of that, I tend to avoid Large burial sites at all difficulties.
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Honestly, I care zero about my "rank". I will abandon any outpost that isn't fun. I will give accolades to people who spent time thinking about their level design even if I never died. How your outpost looks and feels is far more important than how many people it kills.
You should reconsider your stance on accolades. A lot of people love getting feedback, and encouraging people to make cool new levels is a good way to get cool new levels.