TheMythAJ
TheMythAJ
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i honestly don’t think alert will ever be meta as long as object is in the game.. object just does more in terms of information at the expense of giving off ur location which isn’t much of a con since u should be a good looper to begin with (if using object). also object can mesh with perks like off the radar or sole survivor.. alert doesn’t mesh with anything on a consistent basis if u ask me.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1388110#Comment_1388110
"in a perk to perk war, survivors will more likely than not trump killers every time.... in a 4v1 queue the devs would of course rather on paper appeal to survivors first."
That's basically the entire point i've been making.
"-killer perks meant to punish survivors unhooking one another such as MYC or DH... maybe add nurses calling & haunting grounds to compliment one of those perks with a gen rush counter perk as the 4th"
As in they have a requirement and a cost, this is basically agreeing with my point.
"-really great add-ons which make survivors lives a tad bit harder (example: myers infinite tier 3)"
I don't really see this as a counter argument as the majority of killers are quite addon dependent. Most of them use those addons just to function at a decent level, not to really have an advantage per say as you are implying. Also, Myers infinite tier 3 addon is literally a meme. As in it is not a strong addon, it is just a fun addon. If you actually get to tier 3 before all the gens are powered you are either playing against low ranks or the survivors are just screwing around. Not to mention you are talking about ultra rares, should we add keys and insta heals to compare evenly here? You get my point.
"-ebony mori’s... for some reason killers deal with make your life difficult perks all day but refuse to use their stacked ebony mori’s religiously"
Why is this even worth mentioning? We are comparing problematic perks, this literally has nothing to do with mori's. They are ultra rare first of all, IE rarer and more expensive. Secondly, if you're gonna add mori's in, then let's throw in keys and insta heals as well. As I said, why are we even talking about mori's, this is irrelevant to the discussion. I personally think mori's and keys need reworks, but that's another topic.
"but if you’re facing perks like these constantly why not run some perks, add ons, and offerings that’ll bring your blood pressure down?"
I already addressed this in my previous post. Calling ultra-rare addons and mori's a "counter" is just illogical. Which perks are you calling counters? I do not believe there are any unless you have some examples.
Why the blood pressure comment? Saying something like that serves no purpose in the conversation other than as an underhanded ego jab.
let’s not act like ultra rare add ons come at a rarity. assuming you’re a killer main they come pretty much in each bloodweb once you’re around level 35 and up. insta heals aren’t instant they require time for the heal to actually work, 16 seconds unless the survivor runs different perks than the ones i mentioned to start the post. also they’re once a game unlike mori’s which activate per survivor after one hook. so yes let’s consider mori’s in this discussion because, as the person who started the discussion, i stated ill mention ways around the survivor perks or counters per say.
in case you may have forgotten due to the length of the thread, my original perks mentioned were DS, BT, and unbreakable (or any other survivor perks you find utterly game breaking). all of those perks i would say would at least 50-80% of the time be revolved around someone being unhooked. i mentioned either Make Your Choice, or Devour Hope which have a distance from hook requirement. if you run either perk you should also pick a killer with good map pressure to actually get away in time
naturally every killer needs add-ons but there definitely are some make your life difficult add-ons such as legions add-on giving survivors the broken status for a period of time, in addition to the requirement of mending. if the myers perk is so bad then disregard it & imagine add-ons that are very good lmao.
also if your blood pressure doesn’t rise then so be it. it wasn’t an attack to anyone’s ego haha it’s just i get pretty annoyed when survivor friends hit me with some mean plays
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@Blueberry said:
All those "second chance" perks punish the killer for playing well and reward the survivor for playing bad. They also all force the killer to play in the least optimal way in order to not get punished by them. Against "good" survivors, playing in that least optimal way loses you the game. In other words they force you into a lose/lose scenario. Those perks are "anti-pressure" perks, in a meta where the only way you win as killer is through pressure. They also aren't situational, because as I've mentioned, even if they don't activate, you are still getting extreme value from them because the killer was forced to play in a bad way to prevent them from activating.
Against "good" survivors, you literally do not have the time to 1 hook each survivor one at a time working your way around. The numbers are simply not even remotely there.
None of these perks have legitimate counters either. You go after the unhooked guy (DS, BT), slug the unhooked (Unbreakable), go for the unhooker (unhooked guy body blocks you with BT, DS, Unbreakable). Completely leaving the hook entirely and never going back means you are going for a pass around of 1 hooking each survivors one at a time, which is as I said earlier, a losing choice as well, as you simply do not have the time to do that with how fast gens are.
You also have all the random DS's you'll get hit with as you'll have multiple active at once and can't keep track of them all. They know how long it lasts so they will just refuse to heal and continue gen rushing.
Almost all of the meta killer perks have high costs, skill requirements, downsides, ask something of you, and have counters built into their base kits without even needing a perk as survivor. Meanwhile we look at all the meta survivor perks that almost all have no costs, downsides, skill requirements etc etc or anything of those same things that the killer perks have. The survivor meta perks also almost all stack together, whereas more and more of the killer ones do not stack. Survivor perks quite simply are not held to the same standards that killer perks are.
Just like killer I've played survivor at rank 1 as well for years and it's quite clear to see how busted many of the survivor second chance perks are, especially once you're able to see it from the other perspective.
in a perk to perk war, survivors will more likely than not trump killers every time.... in a 4v1 queue the devs would of course rather on paper appeal to survivors first. what i see to be an obvious counter are:
-killer perks meant to punish survivors unhooking one another such as MYC or DH... maybe add nurses calling & haunting grounds to compliment one of those perks with a gen rush counter perk as the 4th
-really great add-ons which make survivors lives a tad bit harder (example: myers infinite tier 3)
-ebony mori’s... for some reason killers deal with make your life difficult perks all day but refuse to use their stacked ebony mori’s religiously
ive been rank 1 on both sides so i’ve had my fair share of michael jordan memes, but if you’re facing perks like these constantly why not run some perks, add ons, and offerings that’ll bring your blood pressure down?
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1387976#Comment_1387976
Here's the thing: A grab overrides lunges as they are command priority so there are times where they are so close and having to wait out BT's 15 seconds you'd be forced into a grab by either reaching the other hook in 15 seconds(If they have Sprint burst its actually rather easy for them to do) and thus having enduring making the lunge do nothing or you being close enough where a grab is forced by the game itself).
I do usually ignore the person who is unhooked if they run away but if they just try to body block for 15 seconds they are getting slapped down after those 15 seconds are up.
TLDR: These perks comboing can be why the situation you mention doesn't work.
ah, yes in that situation there’s actually nothing to be done but eat the DS lmao (or back up for an awkward lunge but if we’re being real nobody’s gonna do that unless they have DS PTSD)
although it’s what i would consider annoying & repetitive, wouldnt you say it’s also not the worst outcome? someone with BT has to take the time to unhook this person running DS, who also has to waste time running over to help the other person who’s hooked. 3 out of 4 people (assuming no one is dead yet) are not touching gens & one of them is recklessly using his DS for what could be a waste (the time to unhook after hitting a DS in a way nullifies the stun and you’ll still have time to down someone).
let’s say one of the unscathed survivors comes to body block or take a hit.. again it’s an annoying thing to deal with but you now have 3 people who’ll be injured if you end up not downing anyone
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@OldHunterLight said:
Game breaker no, game changing yes, a single DS can make you lose the match, if you are using a killer like Oni, an unbreakable will make his power have consequences.
It is not the perk's power it's how people abuse it, you get unhooked with BT, start body blocking the killer if he is there if he is going for the unhooker, then if the killer is smart he/she will wait the 15 seconds and you as a survivor will complain to the killer that he was tunneling because you body blocked him/her.
DS allows dumb plays that punish the killer, like going to unhook someone else immediately in the killer's face because you have a 60 second advantage and if paired up with unbreakable unless the killer wants to eat the DS you are free to go.
Some survivors will still do the locker DS thing, while the devs say that it's not an anti tunneler perk it does work like it.
Something that I want to add to the BT since that is actually an anti tunnel perk, am I actually tunneling you if you are body blocking me and not letting me go for the unhooker?
if they body block with BT you of course should just hit them & force them to flee. it’s a wasted hit & extra time but under certain circumstances that extra few seconds would not compare (maybe a few sweaty add-ons, a mori if you’re having a rough day vs continuous swf).
& also would it not be a winning situation for someone who, let’s say is under their 60 second DS, goes for an unsafe unhook? you are granted an effortless slug (being that you just hooked them you should recognize by a dumb play like that they have DS) and are forcing one of, if not both of the remaining two survivors to stop doing gens and help their teammates.
if this survivor who is playing reckless under their DS has unbreakable it would be at the killers advantage for them to waste their only self-recover because they wanted a cool clip. all of the attention has now been converted from gens to the helpless survivors
im interested in your rebuttal! i think there are also a few killer perks which can strategically nullify both BT and DS (for the most part)
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@Warcrafter4 said:
To find out why DS is an issue look at game footage of survivors jumping into lockers with DS up and see that the killer can do NOTHING in that situation:
If the killer opens the locker they get hit by DS.
If they leave the locker then they lose out on what should be a slug(Not hook but just a slug).
Another issue with DS is that survivors can DS when they get grabbed while trying to unhook. Which means a free double unhook without the 2nd Savoir being put into danger despite not respecting the killer at all.
I personally don't have an issue with unbreakable but most people hate it for comboing with DS making it so even if you do slug the survivor still gets away from a bad play.
BT IMO just makes survivors stupid as it makes them not respect the killer's distance from the hook and makes it so survivors can get away with really stupid unhooks. BT is a good anti camp perk but it also lets them do stupid plays against non campers.
TLDR: Effectively the issue is with these is that they punish the killers for good plays while rewarding survivors for making bad plays.
i completely understand the frustration with DS in relation to lockers since it can be a nuisance to see someone jump in a locker mid-chase & have to decide whether they’re attempting a DS or head on... but in terms of a DS unsafe unhook wouldn’t it be much less problematic to lunge rather than grab? a free slug and you nullify DS
im curious as to how you feel about the idea of ignoring who was unhooked for the full 60 seconds? don’t waste a chase unless it’s a quick down via nurses calling? nullify what in 2020 dbd feels like an anti-tunnel perk & make more progress on different survivors? (also pyramid head seems like an efficient counter)
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it’s an effective perk against swf. if, as a killer, you’re getting molly whopped in the gen battle because all the survivors have BT or DS or are body blocking and saboing ever hook, then you have a chance to return the favor with noed.
u never know what kinda gaming day a killer has had lmao they might’ve had red rank swf all day & just need end game satisfaction.
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all things considered i don’t think borrowed time needs a nerf. it’s extremely straight forward.. either you’re close enough for it to work, or you’re far enough for it not to; not to mention devour hope & make your choice promotes leaving the hooked survivor anyway.
a spirit with devour hope or make your choice combined with nurses calling can negate the terror radius, earn a stack for devour/give the unhooking survivor exposed status, potentially locate survivors if healing, down one, (potentially two rapid downs with MYC) hook the survivor(s), rinse and repeat while becoming an overall more deadly killer & turning the tables in your favor. add on something such as haunting grounds and u can punish survivors for playing too close to one another (at the price of not knowing exactly where devour hope is). a play style like that will negate BT essentially making them only have 3 perks, slow the game down a lot in terms of gens (even more so if u add on ruin or pop) and save urself a few controllers in the meantime.
its not abuse of a perk for someone to intentionally take a hit. it comes with its own con of having to mend. yes as a killer you’re taking additional time to entertain a chase you could’ve avoided, but the unhooked survivor is left useless (objectively) for 20+ seconds.
this game can seem unfair for killers or survivors when facing the right opponent(s). when you’re a solo survivor & u don’t run DS and no one has BT meanwhile the killer intentionally chases u, (frowned upon or not, it happens often in red ranks if gens are being popped enough) it’s frustrating.... simultaneously as a killer if ur play style kinda revolves around being relatively close to the hook but not focusing on it, then BT or DS can be annoying.
just as some perks are simply more effective & make the game much more challenging than others, so do some killers abilities and add-ons. if your biggest issue revolves around swf & difficulty dealing with BT or DS, choose a statistically better killer. if you find the better killers less fun & you wish to have a more entertaining, but less effective killer, then be prepared to be frustrated when u can’t counter certain perks that seem “broken”. i personally think BT is too situational to be nerfed.
& for the sake of keeping the “nerf BT” argument even remotely valid, let’s not mention eboni mori’s that come in the bloodweb pretty frequently after lvl 35, or some pretty game-changing add-ons that killers can use