Snivo
Snivo
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@IWantCandys said:
I understand that so well. That's one thing that not only annoys me, it really pisses me off.
Not everyone has time to play DBD for hours, 4 minutes may not sound like a lot but when you have limited time to play it is a total waste of time. In the 4 minutes in which I'm on the ground and can't do anything, I could already be in the next match.
I have no problem getting slugged if the killer can see the last survivor. But if they have to find the last survivor first and has absolutely no idea where they are, I'm just pissed.
Fine, give killers basekit "blood warden", that would be a deal I could live with without any problems, but this slugging for 4K has to stop.
Or as an alternative solution, give me a "surrender" button that I can press after about 90 seconds so I can move on to the next match.
Or remove the hatch. I don't care, I just don't want to lie on the floor for 4 whole minutes and waste valuable time.
"Or as an alternative solution, give me a "surrender" button that I can press after about 90 seconds so I can move on to the next match."
I really only play killer, survivor whenever with friends, but that's the best idea for slug fixes that I feel would be the most accepted. Implementing this correctly could follow the lines of basically being a non-punishing disconnect, the killer gets rewarded for the down & the survivor can simply leave. Obviously it's more in-depth than that, such as playing with a party, the amount of time that feels justified for this option to be available, how it effects the other three, etc., but this is giving a solution to a problem that doesn't happen often enough. I do feel slugging as a topic is seriously way too exaggerated though. I get some people don't have hours to play games, I get its not exactly fun to just lay there while the killer goes for the 4k, but seriously this topic needs a chill. I play Pyramid Head, Spirit and Nurse
(omg tryhard stfu grr, totally not because I enjoy the killers and wanna have fun), all map manipulation killers, and sorry to say this, but I'm not going to intentionally play worse because "I don't like being idol". I get that it isn't fun, but I've seriously never heard anybody talk about the killer side. On the topic of fun, do you think its fun when near every game, survivors feel the need to bag you during the game and at the gate? How after a game where you've played clean, you still get insulted? Like please be honest with yourself, slugging is not always toxic and isn't some dirty tactic to spite the survivors (case by case of course, don't get me wrong), and is FAR from a real issue.Scenario: Two survivors are down, two more are injured. I can visibly see one of the two standing, and down them. After the third survivor is down, I have eyes on the fourth, pursue them, and eventually down them for a 4K. Choosing to chase and catch the fourth survivor is not toxic, and players need to realize that when you say that's a bad way to play, you're telling me to intentionally throw so you can have fun. If I intentionally throw, I'd say a safe 8/10 times, these same survivors will give toxic behavior to me, regardless of the choice I make. If I go with the scenario instead, I get called a slugger with a skill issue and told im bad at the game. Obviously none of these are taken personally or anything, but its just annoying for players. Slugging or not, toxic behavior from survivors happens CONSTANTLY and I feel players ignore that side of things. Apologies, but you cannot argue how toxic slugging is when you yourself exhibit toxic behavior.
Argument: Just hook the survivors when you down them, its not that difficult bozo. Unfortunately like earlier, I'm not going to intentionally throw. Lets take a look at the scenario I gave, I decide to pick up one of the two downed survivors and hook them. In that time, the two standing survivors have healed the second downed survivor, and now its a 3v1, opposed to taking my path where I can end the game right there with a victory. Alas, that option is simply "toxic" and "harmful" to the game, even though its simple strategy to use, satisfying to execute correctly, and whether you like it or not, the correct way to play. Once again, you cannot just expect killers to throw just because its simply not fun for you.
Obviously this going without saying, everything is case by case, which brings me to my end point, slugging isn't the issue. Realistically, you cant "nerf slugging" without creating more problems than solutions, because slugging isn't the problem, its the players who use it in toxic ways. For example, nurse EXCELS at slugging, I'd argue its the best killer in the game to slug with. Going off of taking opportunities given to me, more times than not, the best option is literally slugging. There needs to be an understanding that this isn't done in spite of anybody, and it doesn't just equate to "wow this player is a tryhard", its simply the best action to take. I haven't really played since the big patch after the anniversary, but I've recently started playing again and soloing pyramid head, and again, slugging becomes a very real option at times. Most times I'll choose to check my surroundings before I pick up a survivor, which occasionally results in a second survivor being downed. This is NOT toxic, this is simply being aware of my surroundings and making a play that favors me. Lets use that again for another scenario, lets say this pattern repeats for each survivor. Down survivor, find another within the area, down them, repeat until I'm committing the sin of "slugging". I don't get how you can really call that toxic, realistically whats toxic about that. "Take into consideration other peoples time and enjoyment" dawg you entered the queue to play a game of dead by daylight, which I think its safe to say that you aren't exactly looking for "a quick game", and if you are, you really shouldn't have chosen dead by daylight of all games when you're on a time crunch. Ill take this oppourtinity to add that whenever I find an opportunity to slug, at least personally, its a very open and closed book. I rarely find situations where I'm slugging for absurd amounts of time, its rather quick just simply due to the numbers disadvantage, which I think further adds to "slugging is too exaggerated", if the killer is slugging multiple players, I think its safe to assume it wont be long until the game ends. To add to this and tackle the "enjoyment" side, once again, you chose to play dbd of all games lol. In all seriousness though like you can't expect every game to just be fun and enjoyable, whether there's a toxic killer or you simply just lose. The truth isn't hard to find here, it's not a good feeling to lose a game that took over 20 minutes to play, it can be frustrating, especially if something like slugging is used during the game, but are you gonna be the player to cry about it? In certain games, it's very understandable to get angry, but jesus lord I still cant find a reason to get angry at dbd. You aren't playing for some leaderboard, ranks are meaningless now
(and aren't even shown anymore so like ???), and I think its safe to say over 95% of players aren't playing for some tournament or something. Get real, if you lose a game, it doesn't meant anything. If you win a game, it doesn't mean anything. You always have another game ahead of you, not every game is winnable. You are going to encounter toxic players, you are going to encounter killers who slug, you are going to have unfortunate experiences. Its not the killers fault nor the games fault that you're letting it completely ruin your day though, take a break if you need so, or just chat up some friends while playing, its not the killers fault you cant control your emotions.one last thing, if you're being toxic to the killer and they proceed to slug you, bro stop complaining as if its the killers issue LMFAO
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This is a suggestion based on what some different games do, and while it may be too much to ask (considering BHVR), I really feel this is the proper way to handle DCs across any game
Firstly, there needs to be a system that can recognize whether the DC was intentional or not, checks for this can include latency checks and whether or not the connection was terminated by communication errors or simply leaving the game. With checks like these in place, it's less punishing to players who DC by means of either a faulty connection or unfortunate internet situation, while players who DC out of salt or anger get punished accordingly. Offenses should follow a similar line as such:
Unintentional DCs (IE: Excessive latency, abnormal ping, etc.)
DC 1: Warning given with a message to check your internet and make sure your connection is stable, no penalty.
DC 2: If a second DC happens within 24 hours of the first DC, a 5 minute penalty penalty will be addressed to the player.
DC 3: If a third DC happens within 24 hours of the first DC, a 15 minute penalty will be addressed to the player, loss of pip progress.
DC 4...: Any DC after a third within the 24 hour period will result in a 1 hour penalty, grade down by 1 (If Iridescent 2, you become Iridescent 3) and loss of pip progress.
With four DCs stacked within 24 hours, that's about 1 hour and 20 minutes worth of a penalty, which if you somehow reach a 4th penalty, I feel its probably better to just stop playing DBD at that point, and this is what this penalty line is supposed to try and encourage. Obviously I'm not saying it should be exactly this, but I feel a similar line of progress is healthy for handling unintentional DCs. The reason behind DC 3&4's progressive harsh punishment is simple: disconnecting is a nuisance to you and others around you. To prevent this, we make the DC penalties harsher throughout to encourage you to put the game down for a bit if you put others at risk of a poor game, and we do this with a "3 strikes and you're out" style system. If you're willing to take a risk on a third strike, and strike out (DC), the punishment for that will be minor depending on how pip-hungry you are. If you decide its so important that you NEED to keep playing after a third strike, and you still disconnect, you'll receive a punishment for continuing to possibly hinder other players. I think this is fair since I've only had one natural disconnect, and that was in a spot where despite having poor internet, I just dealt with a pretty good bit of latency but never DCd. If you're in a spot where its THAT bad where you disconnect FOUR times, I think this is a fair punishment. Onto intentional DCs, which I feel is pretty simple to have a check system for (literally if the player uses the leave match function in means of a disconnect, I feel its the easiest of the bunch). EDIT: just at the beginning of a game before finishing this, somebody DC'd at the very beginning of the match. Nothing had even happened, so I feel safe in saying this was an unintentional DC. This player should only get a warning and nothing else, it wasn't their fault and they shouldn't be punished if its their first DC.
Intentional DCs (Using the Leave Game function)
DC 1: Grade down (If Iridescent 2, you become iridescent 3), loss of pip progress, 10 minute penalty.
DC 2: If within 24 hours of the first DC, reset rank progress (If Iridescent 2, become Iridescent 4), loss of pip progress, 15 minute penalty.
DC 3: If within 24 hours of the first DC, rank down (If iridescent 2, become gold 4), loss of pip progress, 45 minute penalty.
DC 4: If within 24 hours of the first DC, rank down (If iridescent 2, become gold 4), loss of pip progress, 24 hour ban.
I know the initial thought is "holy ######### no, that's WAY too punishing", but in response let me ask you this. Is it fair to just DC whenever you want to other players? It's beyond poor sportsmanship, you're not only putting your team at a disadvantage, but its just annoying to the killer too. "That's the point, the DC is to spite the killer", then you're the toxic one. You can argue hE dId iT FIrSt, but as soon as you disconnect, in my opinion you're as low, if not lower than the killer. I usually find myself giving hatch to the last teammate standing depending on if they were toxic or not if their teammate disconnects, or just let everybody farm BP instead, since its seriously just so disappointing to see. I wanna break down the reasons for the punishments, as I have thought it through. Listen, life happens, sometimes mid game you have to go. We understand, that's why DC 1 will only warrant a loss in pips. Is this annoying? Sure, its a nuisance if all you need to do is something small like eat dinner, being dragged to the store, thought you had enough time to play a game before your shift, then realize you have to quit mid game or you'll be late, etc., and you just have to disconnect. Hell, while writing this I just disconnected as killer at end game because I had to do a few things, it happens. The reason there's still a punishment is because while it may be a nuisance in those situations, its fair punishment for a first offense to anybody intentionally disconnecting with bad intent while giving people who need to disconnect a sorta safety net. The reason for the immediate jump in punishment to resetting your grade progress is to hopefully incentivize players with tilting issues to just stop playing. If you feel the absolute need to continue playing and it gets so bad you need to disconnect, I feel you deserve a harsh punishment for such poor sportsmanship. Keep in mind, these punishments aren't gonna apply to most players, probably wont apply to you reading this too, this is a measure for players who have tilting issues and feel the need to make other players experiences worse because they got mad at a videogame, so if you just play and know not to DC, these wont apply to you! I really wanna push that narrative since these punishments ONLY effect toxic players, and ig you can view that as a callout for saying if you intentionally disconnect with harsh intent, its toxic... which it is lol. I feel these harsh punishments encourage even the most Toxic players to play through the game, and because the punishments are so harsh, they would actually lose more by disconnecting, making it so if you're seriously that mad (which jesus christ get off the videogame bruh), you at least are more inclined to contribute to your team rather than just disconnecting.
Again, these punishments are harsh, but in place to discourage toxic disconnects & give wiggle room for players that may have unfortunate disconnects, whether that be an unfortunate match or a poor internet location or life gets in the way. I feel this system would benefit players who aren't toxic but disconnect by accident, while punishing those who feel the need to ruin other players fun because they got mad at a videogame. Would love to hear how players would feel if a system like this was made for DBD.
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As a nurse main, this not only wont happen, but seriously isn't needed. the case you've shown here doesn't really give a reason for a nerf first of all. All you've really said is "heres a toxic killer that played nurse, now give me a nerf". On top of the "Nurse add-ons need a buff", as a nurse main I'd actually argue those are some of nurse's weakest add-ons lmao. To me, range add-ons are terrible on nurse since they mess with the muscle memory of the blink, speed of the target location etc., mainly what you look to run are blink cooldowns, and if needed some recharge add-ons
Ataxic Respiration & Catatonic Boy's treasure is an insane add-on set to run, if not imo the best for nurse.
Ataxic Respiration reduces your fatigue from the first blink by -0.25 seconds (which is seriously much more effective than you think)
Catatonic Boy's treasure decreases Chain Blink fatigue by 100%, effectively making your blink cooldown a faster first blink for both your first and chain blink.
The added range really isn't needed, and you should really just shoot for having the faster cooldown so instead of getting more range/speed, you get base range but use it twice as fast, effectively giving you more overall range and offensive pressure that running speed/range.
ANYWAY, small little thing since you mentioned the add-ons, I will mention one add-on. It's a common add-on, the Plaid Flannel. It allows you to see your target blink location, and that takes away basically all of the skill part of nurse. It helped me master nurse extremely quickly, and I feel its extremely unfair. Huntress doesn't have an add-on where she can see the trajectory of her hatchets, Pyramid Head doesn't get a hologram of how far and where Punishment of the Damned will go, so Nurse shouldn't be able to see where her blinks go. It's part of the entire skill ceiling, and it literally cuts it in half, if not even more since you can literally see where you're blinking. Other than that, listening to the argument about nurse's add-ons needing to be nerfed is silly, especially the ones you're talking about. The main issue with nurse in the past was you could literally have SEVEN BLINKS LMFAO. The most you can have now is three blinks with the Ultra Rare add-on "torn bookmark", but that warrants you a 50% recharge cooldown (Considering you have 3 blinks to work with now, 50% is agonizingly crippling), and the most you can relieve off of that is 13% with the uncommon "Dark Cincture" add-on. Theres a reason Nurse isn't getting any "nerfs" or "reworks", and thats because from the original Nurse to now, shes been nerfed to the ground. You can't "rework" nurse without making her either A: just completely terrible, or B: literally not nurse. The argument of "nerf her cooldown" is something I can see and get behind. The entire reason Ataxic & Catatonic are so good is because without any cooldown essentially, you basically have free range to blink whenever, warranted you're good enough to blink correctly and work around the cooldown. The big thing here is this is also entirely an add-on set if you're SKILLED at nurse. If you have no idea how to control the blink, I promise you this add-on set, hell any add-on set without the flannel is absolutely useless to you, which is a reason why I feel plaid flannel needs to be removed. Nurse is an extremely powerful killer, if not the best in the game obv. The fact that an add-on like plaid flannel exists is baffling, this should not be an accessible killer. If it was an accessible killer, everybody would use her, which kinda furthers a "if shes so broken why doesn't everybody just use nurse then". I play nurse not to win necessarily, but since its extremely satisfying to see your growth in skill and handling with blinks, and getting good reads and punishing bad plays is an extremely satisfying feeling knowing I'm using an ability with a high skill ceiling. Other than Nurse, I main Spirit and Pyramid Head, and the same applies there. I feel people really whine too much about Nurse, shes not getting any nerfs and she really doesn't need any. The argument of "she can just blink through pallets and wall vaults" is really silly too, why are you wall vaulting and pallet vaulting knowing that information??? If you know you're putting yourself in a situation where you can be punished by the Nurse, why do it? Thats not the Nurse's fault, that's yours lmao. Only nerf im for on Nurse is the removal of Plaid Flannel, other than that shes completely fine base. Her cooldown doesn't need any type of cooldown, but if one were to emerge it'd really just be more of an inconvenience than a hindrance, and wouldn't really change the way nurse operates, hence probably why she hasn't and wont be getting a nerf.
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BP, i have no other reason to use the aura reading. Most players just hop in a locker anyway, so without the BP the perk is genuinely useless to me. I get some people find the aura reading helpful, but the aura reading is just just a bonus, there are way more perks I'd rather run over BBQ.
I really disagree with them removing the BP on this perk, having perks that give you BP isn't bad, and I really hate how they view it as such. For instance, the Anniversary is the PERFECT time to use BP perks! I'd literally rather BBQ just give 100% BP than aura readings if one of them had to be removed, I'm giving up a perk slot for some added BP. I think its a perfectly fine and healthy tradeoff, extremely disappointing to hear how they think of BP on perks.
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@Reshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3018744#Comment_3018744
You're forgetting the amount of time it takes for a killer to make up a 10 meter head start. The killer only makes up about .4 to .6 meters a second, so survivors get to run about 25-16 seconds before the killer makes up a 10 meter deficit. That's about 100-64 meters in total. That's a lot of distance to get from such a short head start.
thats dependent on you as well, this is a very loose statement. There are very easy ways to manipulate this, easy things such as learning good mind games and finding better movement paths. Every killer has an ability that can outplay survivor movement (ig besides myres, ghost face and maybe trapper n' nemesis?), like that list is insanely small. Ofc if you're just running in the straight exact line the survivor is running with no changes, obviously its going to take a small bit to catch up, but thats if for some reason you're only following the exact path like an idiot. you cant blame looping in this either, since its your choice to stay in the loop. a loop is as definitive as the killer is willing to run it, so you cant blame looping on this. This is literally just a skill issue, even playing Nurse you can just run better lines without even blinking. On every killer besides the Nurse, you have the speed advantage, an ability and the plus of a survivor most likely taking their first lines in a way where you can see their route, evaluate it and take a faster route to them. you're the chaser, not the one being chased. If you cant punish decisions the survivors make, thats not the speed issue, its yours. theres a reason this is probably the first time ive literally ever heard "slow down survivors", its not the speed issue, its your issue for not being able to be a good chaser and make that supposed "10 meter head start" mean something, which is also bogus lmao. You word if the game is literally just grants a head start for the survivors, not once have I ever had an issue of chasing because its easy to understand "survivor took an outside line, ill cut it tight and meet them there" or "ill literally just use my ability", and just saying "the survivor can do the same" means nothing since you still have a speed bonus, a whole ass ability and knowledge of what the survivor has done/doing actively. If you cant read movement like that, its not the speeds fault, this is the only time I've ever seen this as a complaint. Literally looking up "survivors are too fast dbd", where the only "complaint" was also met with people saying its just perks. If anything the complaint is the perks the survivors are able to use, so this isn't a "speed issue", its a "perk issue", and even then still kinda your skill issue for not understanding how to play killer apparently.
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@nikodemo said:
except that i was right and the balance changes skew toward slower survs, faster killers, slower gens, faster chases. the thread is over.
i dont quite get how this makes the thread "over", every killer's base speed (other than Nurse) is higher than the survivors base speed. For reference:
Survivors share the same base (running) Movement speed amongst each other of 4.0 m/s.
Killers, with few exceptions, have one of 2 base Movement speeds, either 4.4 m/s or 4.6 m/s.
These are the following values for every survivor movement speed:
Crawling: 0.7 m/s
Crouching: 1.13 m/s
Walking: 2.26 m/s
Running: 4.0 m/s
On-hit Sprint: 6.0 m/s
The only time a Survivor can ever out-speed the killer is with a Haste status effect, which come from the following perks:
Adrenaline: 6.0 m/s for 5 seconds
Balanced Landing: 6.0 m/s for 3 seconds > Exhausted for 60/50/40 seconds
Lithe: 6.0 m/s for 3 seconds > Exhausted for 60/50/40 seconds
Overcome: 6.0 m/s for 2 seconds > Exhausted for 60/50/40 seconds
Smash Hit: 6.0 m/s for 4 seconds > Exhausted for 60/50/40 seconds
Sprint Burst: 6.0 m/s for 3 seconds > Exhausted for 60/50/40 seconds
Please explain how why we need to make survivors slower? I'm a killer main as well and have never had any issue with survivor speeds, I don't think having 1.5k+ hours means anything either, so this really sounds like a skill issue more than anything else. Slowing the survivors down more than they are currently will easily result in an overwhelming advantage on the killers side, especially since all but one perk where you can out-speed the killer brings exhaustion for 40 seconds minimum and only grant the boost for 5 seconds maximum. I'd also like you to explain where the balance changes being made towards "slower survivors" are present. Just because the Perk Dead Hard got reworked so people couldn't use it to get to pallets faster doesn't equate to "the rework is solely making survivors slower".
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what is so problematic about SWF? I'm a killer main and I seriously don't understand, like who cares if you lose one game. It's not like your rank is going to determine if you can make an e-sports team or prove anything, and one game isn't even gonna change much. Besides, there's basically zero way to nerf SWF, you're essentially saying "take away the option to play with friends", to which I say wheres the challenge at that point? I love when I get lobbies where people are actively communicating, its challenging and funny that people are try-harding at a game like DBD lmao, but presents a good challenge for me as a killer. It's not an immediate L, I would love to see anybody complaining about SWF play quite literally any team-based game competitively (IE: Splatoon, Valorant, Overwatch etc.). This could just be me since I've grown up and continue to play in competitive environments with games, but coming from that standpoint, complaining about people using comms is literally just saying "I hate it when people play the game together". I get the difference being "well its a 1v4", but dude its literally DBD, who cares. Like seriously is one game against survivors using comms really that mentally damaging.
Also to your main point, that's a terrible idea. You're actively limiting the players options, and how would that even work? So perks can repeat if you go in solo, but other players in said solo can still have repeating perks? Playing with +1 is where that would come into effect, and what happens when you're just playing with a +1? Does the game have to search for survivors using different perks or does it not matter? Saying a "nerf" is needed for SWF is the silliest thing I've genuinely heard not just in DBD, but in any game I've literally ever played. and no, adding a separate queue for SWF is a terrible idea. if theres already this many people complaining, why would anybody play it. It'd literally be a dead queue.
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wrote three long replies before scrapping them since its not even worth the effort, I just have three .txts named "nurse argument 1-3" now. What any nurse main says wont change anything since most survivors are unwilling to cope with the fact nurse isnt broken and find it more fun to complain than comply. Your skill issue bruh, cant say half of the nurse mains didn't try explaining it already lmao. Thats the truth, nurse hasnt gotten a rework (and wont get one) because shes isn't broken, join the smart party of people who learned her counterplay instead of typing how unfair nurse is, cus it wont do anything lmao
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i agwee, pwetty pwease 🥺
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A TLDR IS AT THE BOTTOM LOL
DS does not need any buff and seriously this is the silliest reasoning I've ever heard. Ill break each one of your reasoning down on why you cant blame DS for this, but only yourself.
- "My laptop is a bit laggy sometimes, and hitting DS skill checks can be very, very hard. Some people like me have laggy hardware."
This is a really silly excuse in trying to get a buff for DS, you need to understand the game cant just cater to the minority sided issues, such as laggy hardware. I say minority because a game like DB is a nightmare with any type of lag or delay, especially as survivor when skill checks can be make or break (like DS). I do understand your argument of "See! it is a make or break situation, I should be able to take advantage of that", but you seem to fail the understand part that its a minority of players who have hardware issues. Giving this buff for the small amount of players with hardware issues would make the perk insanely easy for people with no hardware issues, and to nail the coffin, this isn't the perks issue, its yours. This is going to be a re-occurring thing I say, its not the perks issue.
- (but actually 2 ty dbd forums) "Some other people are simply not able to hit those skill checks naturally. I know some people who don't use DS because they just can't hit the skill check, it's too hard for them."
I really hope you're joking if this is the reason you want a buff, because its kinda laughable, especially the part on "players cant hit skill checks naturally". DS is a skill based perk, its a high-risk high-reward deal, its very silly to think its balancing to just give survivors a "get of out jail free card" simply because these players don't bother learning the timing. Again, you can make the argument of "well my hardware is laggy", but how is the perk at fault for that? It works completely fine and is balanced for everybody else without hardware issues, so why change it if it isn't broken? Again, its not the perks issue, its yours.
- (but actually 3 lol) "Not to mention that failing a DS skill check disables it for the rest of the match (which means, if you get tunneled after your 2nd unhook, you get no chance to self-defend)."
This is where we do kinda enter a gray area the perk, and I'd like to defend the fact that its actually like this. First of all, you could intentionally miss your DS the first time and trick the killer into thinking you don't have DS. Could you list this as mind games? Yes, you could, but this also means every survivor with a brain would to this, and it'd be near impossible to get people to second hook who know how to use DS. Having the perk as a one time use after first hook is balanced completely, and there's a reason its called DECISIVE strike. Its a gamble, you're betting everything to the pot. You take away the risk of missing your DS, it makes it more free. If you could miss your DS and still have it activated, whats the point of even using it the first time? DS isn't supposed to be a "get out of jail free card", its a perk that gives you the opportunity to buy some time. I'd also like to direct your attention to a patch note for DS:
Patch 4.6.0
- Nerf: added several Deactivation conditions to prevent the use of Decisive Strike as a temporary immunity shield while progressing objectives, which was not the Perk's intended use.
You can take this in several ways, but a message this shows is exactly what my point is, its not supposed to be a get out of jail free card. It's a perk with a learning curve, and once you LEARN it, you can argue its a free card, but you have to LEARN it. The devs understand this would make the perk very broken if anybody could do it, since there would literally be no reason not to run DS and it'd kinda guarantee the killer needing to hook every survivor FOUR TIMES instead of three. The fact there are people saying "remove the skill check" is also genuinely really stupid. I had never used decisive strike until I decided to write this, and the skill check isn't even small??? Like I'm serious if you're missing the DS skill check,, its 100% a skill issue. If you're missing DS checks, you probably think Merciless Storm is a broken perk, to which I say once again, its not the perks issue, its yours.
- (but actually 4 oasuobef) "Surely, people who are sweaty and use DS aggressively have no problems hitting the skill check."
This is just a small thing I wanna add, but calling players "sweaty" for learning how to consistently hit DS checks really shows that you don't want this perk to involve skill, or really anything to involve skill. You have to understand that perks that are really good need skill to use, and I'll use nurse for example. Nurse is argued to be the best killer in the game, due to her ability to blink. I main nurse, and I can say without a doubt that for new nurse players, the add-on Plaid Flannel is an insanely broken perk for literally cutting the skill ceiling in half. Then reason nurse's skill ceiling is so high is due to the blink's target location being invisible, and since the plaid flannel shows the location, it makes the skill required to learn nurse being literally cut in half now that you can see the location of the blink. I was able to get to a level where I can easily consistently 4K as nurse all due to my first 40/50 games or so being with plaid flannel, I got a feel for how the blink worked, saw how it interacted with the environment, and now can use nurse without the flannel because I'm so used to it. I seriously think plaid flannel is one of the most broken add-ons in this game since it takes the massive skill part of nurse away, but this isn't about nurse. Imagine if DS was actually an ability (yes, i know survivors don't have abilities, but I'm using this as an example). Lets say there's an add-on for DS that basically makes the skill arrow slower so you can better get used to timing. Sounds like a nice thing right? Especially for you since you aren't very well acquainted with DS, but what about the people who are? See how broken that makes DS, letting literally everybody do it? The difference with the plaid cloth and DS is that Nurse takes infinitely more skill that DS, and DS doesn't have a plaid cloth equivalent, you get no training wheels. Its up to you alone to learn this perk, and just like the nurses blink, DS is a meta perk for a reason, it literally stuns the killer for five seconds and lets you run away. Its an insanely good perk that cant be free, because imagine you just let people see the blink location normally? The skill is taken away, you literally just look at where the blinks gonna go and fly from there. So if DS is just a free "get out of jail free card", please give people a reason you would run any other perk over DS at that point, it would literally turn your hook count from 3 to 4 without any skill required.
- (but actually 5) "DS is supposed to help us against being tunneled right of the hook. It's supposed to be a bit of a protection for us, and a bit of a punishment for the killer. Now, if I'm getting tunneled, and fail the skill check 'cause it's so freakin' small and hard to hit for me, **I** get punished. Why???"
I don't know where you got the "its tunneling protection" from. You can argue that its a benefit of DS, making it harder for killers to tunnel, but it's definitely not the reason the perk was made. I'm not gonna act like I know the reason, since it really just seems like an "we have this idea" perk, but I really doubt the perk was made solely to counter tunneling, because at that point, A: why is the perk locked behind a survivor you literally need to buy with auric cells, like what the devs were like "yea you can protect yourself from tunneling, but five bucks please", and B: wouldn't they have just made a general buff/debuff etc. to the act of tunneling in general...? There's literally Borrowed Time that lets you counter tunneling WAY more efficiently that DS, and lucky for you there's no skill check! Again I'd like to point out for anybody that hasn't used DS that the skill check really isnt that small, fun fac its actually bigger than the great skill checks length, so you'd actually have an easier time hitting DS than a great skill check. let that sink in, people want to make the length of DS's skill check bigger, when its literally easier to hit that a great skill check. Wheres the LITERAL skill check at that point???? I also REALLY hate the way you worded this and I'm very disappointed in the way you did, saying that you "get punished" for missing a skill check is literally just wrong, and to people who haven't used DS, is misinformation that will lead them to agree with you. Missing DS doesn't "punish you", it just makes it so you'd literally be playing normally. There's not punishment to missing a DS skill check, it will ALWAYS activate after your first hook and NEVER after that, whether you hit it or not. DS is ALWAYS a ONE TIME USE perk, so its either you hit it or you dont, thats it. This makes me a big frustrated since you seriously make it so misleading on what happens.
- (but actually 6) "DS is not a perk that grants competitive advantage (it can be abused, but that's a different story), it should not be so hard to use! People who abuse it have success with it, people like me who have trouble with the tiny skill check bar fail it and get tunneled out of the game."
I'm sure anybody who read that who's gotten good at the game just disregarded this post all together, because THAT is the silliest thing I've genuinely ever heard. DS is an insanely good perk, ESPECIALLY due to the fact that you can stack DS into BT. First you'd have to deal with BT, then after BT you get a DS to the face, and you have the audacity to say "its not a perk that grants competitive advantage", did you install the game yesterday? I don't even understand how you can even "abuse" decisive strike, how do you abuse a perk that can only be used once per game? You also literally say "people like me who have trouble with the tiny skill check bar", that is literally verbatim you saying "I have a skill issue", and I doubt you get tunneled as much as you make it seem.
- (but actually 7) "Oppression skill checks are what make the perk, and are not crucial to survival. DS does have to do with survival, and should not have high requirements."
I can't even tell if this is a meme post anymore, because I seriously hope you arent serious. "DS has to do with survival, it shouldn't have high requirements", you are quite literally asking the devs to take the skill away and have it free for survivors. I'm not even gonna elaborate on this, hell I don't think I even need to break anything else down except your closing message.
- (but actually 8) "This is an accessibility issue, and I ask you that you please address it finally. Please make the skill check much bigger. Also, make it so that if we fail the skill check (which should rarely be happening if it's bigger), DS still activates after the 2nd unhook."
This is in no way an "accessibility issue", the perk is made balanced. I'm a killer main, I really only play survivor if I have to with friends, and DS is a completely fair and balanced perk that has a good learning curve (really its not even a learning curve but to each their own ig) and gives a nice high-risk high-reward situation for running the perk. If you've gained the skill to consistently used DS, you're able to run DS taking its HrHr value that you've earned through learning the ability. Blaming DS's "accessibility" on your hardware has nothing to do with the perk, its your issue, get better hardware or learn to time it better and play around your hardware instead of complaining about it. I'm not even gonna talk about where you tried to use alcohol as a point, that's actually so laughable I'm surprised you even decided to mention it.
TL:DR (even though you should at minimum thoroughly skim through it):
DS is a balanced perk with a good learning curve and good High-Risk High-Reward (HrHr) value that gives you a reason to use the perk and a satisfying skill ceiling to learn and execute. Your arguments have nothing to do with the perk and are solely issues on your end, and the perk honestly should stay the way it is.
I still encourage people to read this, but I know for some its lengthy and kinda "wow he must be a virgin for writing that much", but I love writing and get carried away lol. That's my take, and I'd love to hear if I've misunderstood anything or any critiques, so lmk. Please no toxicity, I didn't write this to insult anybody (even though it gets very confrontational at the end). It's simply written as a discussion point, not a means of insulting and toxic arguing.
(few typos are in here, and after 5 attempts of editing and said edits refusing to show up, I give up. sorry about the typos)
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I agree with this entirely, except I'd much rather an entire rework on the condemnation part of onion (I just refer to onryo as the onion)
The main issue with onion is simple, theres a laughably easy way to make sure onion never even starts any sort of condemnation: literally ignore the ability. TV's imo are sorta also laughable, unless on a map like midwich, I never have any reason to ever materialize with and TV. The only encouragement is getting a hook and traversing to whatever TV is closest to the gen you wanna check out. Theres rarely any time where im genuinely using the TVs as a way to predict chase movement and get satisfying reads, theres no satisfaction in onion besides basic movement every killer can do. I literally forgot you could condemn a survivor because literally nobody ever picks up the tapes, and why would you? It's optional, and you actively hurt yourself by picking them up lol.
I would edit some of these buffs though, cus its seriously such a massive shame onions low on the tier list. She brings a ton of potential with the tools already handed to her, being able to completely rid her terror radius while being basically completely actionable is something that can be extremely dangerous already, if you've ever played/played against a myres that purposely runs a no-radius build, you'll understand the power this brings. Being the closest thing to invisible while removing your radius gives you a reason to demanifest and manifest often, its the only reason you would ever use onion over any killer. Why am I bringing this up? Simply to show a good ability needs benefits to be good, and its important to understand the balance you need to bring too. The Executioner has Rites of Judgment & Punishment of the Damned, an ability and secondary that was designed beautifully. The way hes designed gives you reason to use both RoJ and PTD, one is a high risk high reward ability while the other has a variety of uses (IE: The Cage, Final Judgment, Location, etc). The reason I compare these too is because the executioner is an amazing example of reward and balance done perfectly. Hes a killer with a satisfying skill & skill ceiling, with benefits and a learning curve in using his abilities to your advantage and capitalizing off of trial and error. The onion is extremely disappointing in this regard, demanifesting is the only good thing onion brings to the table. "But she has a free mori!", yes my friend, a free mori she will never obtain unless the player has never seen onion. Covering the comparison (ik its a bit lengthy, but kinda a big reason I made this acc lmao), I wanna talk about the buffs.
Seraphor, you're spot on capitalizing on Comdemn and Demanifest, every killer should have reliable skills they can use and work around to achieve some sort of use. A big issue with that obv is that almost every game will NEVER result in any survivor getting relatively close to being condemned, unless you run the add-on "Tape Editing Deck". This forces every survivor to start a trial with a VHS tape, and this leads to my first big reason of a buff.
- Scrap the Tape Editing Deck add-on, make it a feature of The Onryo.
Seriously, this is the only way you'll ever even think about getting close to having a survivor condemned. VHS tapes are laughable to survivors as TVs really dont pose much of a threat. "But she can teleport through them and get a speed boost", the risk reward of being condemned isnt enough to warrant picking up a VHS tape, on top of good onion mains being able to understand once a TV disappears, your general location is already revealed. So why would you pick up a VHS tape, only to possibly become condemned and reveal your location after using it? See what I mean, it's a good idea on paper, but the TVs give zero map pressure nor reason to ever act on them, and serve more a niche option to gen control. Very rarely do I see and find myself using TVs as a unique mix-up option, hell even as a way to keep gen control, due to the fact that TV spawns really arent the best either. This brings me to a second buff:
- (but actually 2, ty dbd forums) TVs actively give progress on being condemned to survivors while on
TVs are seriously so laughably useless to survivors its not even funny, theres such easy counterplay to them without using tapes that theres really no reason to care enough about them. How do you fix this? Well first of all, lets look at the movie, where watching the tape gives you 7 days to live. Why is it that the TVs being on do nothing then?? The premise of the movie was never "thou who holds the tapes shall become a great disgrace", it was watching the tape. It doesn't make any sense why TVs that are on do nothing passively, and because of this, TVs serve no purpose in pressure or reason to even pay attention to them. Give the survivors a reason to care! Being condemned is an extremely scary thing, but theres never a time its gonna happen since all they have to do is completely ignore the TVs. Honestly I really feel this needs to be a rework, anybody who walks near a TV should begin the condemnation process passively, I really cant even fathom why this design choice was chosen, its terrible. This is also something I just found out in a custom game, so I'll mention it now:
- (but actually 3 lol) REMOVE THE STOPPED CONDEMNED TIMER
Just in-case anybody reading this didn't know, getting downed stops the condemned timer, and for obvious reasons. Those being simply to make it so an onion cant down a survivor in process of being condemned and sit there while they patiently wait for their mori. Sounds like a pretty reasonable balance right? Well did you know that the timer for being condemned is paused if you're within onions terror radius. Please god I really hope somebody corrects me on this if im wrong, but testing it on my own and getting confirmation, I sat with a player in a custom game WHILE WRITING THIS, and the condemned timer didn't move at all. It only began to resume once she was out of my terror radius, thats absolutely ridiculous. How the ######### are you supposed to condemn survivors??? Avoid them and hope they forget about their tape??? I only just now found this out, and I'm genuinely so taken back by it, what dev decided to do that??? Literally what to these tapes even do anymore, Condemned is seriously that hard to get to.
I'll take the rest to cover the offered buffs OP mentioned:
- (but actually 4 haha lmao lol xd) When a survivor becomes fully Condemned, if they come within 12m of a TV, that TV instantly turns on.
This is an absolutely brilliant idea, and I'm not just saying that to flatter the OP. This is a great way to give the Onion a good way to EFFICIENTLY use TVs. Again, the TV spawns are half garbage half not. Im serious about saying they're garbage too, go to haddonfield for example. Theres literally a TV that can spawn all the way to a middle wall, away from every gen and exit gate. When the hell am I ever gonna use that??? It would literally slow me down more than help me, but if we had this brilliant idea as a means of counterplay, it would be a lovely TV to have. Anybody that knows onion knows the process (if you're dumb enough to comply to it): tape insert tv bazinga L onion. Again, theres no reason to ever pick up a VHS tbh, and if we add the buffs listed, this becomes a lovely way to add some map awareness skill. Suddenly without your knowledge, you pass a TV and turn it on, noticing that as the Onion is a risky move to take. Do you project to the TV, even though it could possibly just have turned on after its timer reset? Or was it a condemned survivor walking past the TV? Giving you these options is what makes choosing the right option so satisfying, as it rewards players going off of current knowledge and presenting them with high risk-high reward scenarios. This is seriously the best buff I've heard and would be lovely if implemented, but obviously implemented in a stage where players have chance of being condemned.
- (but actually 5 oaiwerhnfoiaiwnef) Buff the rate at which Condemnation is gained. Somewhere around 20%-25%, via various means (whether it's passive or direct actions) would be good enough.
I know I skipped this one, but thats solely because the one above was seriously that eye-catching. This is a DIRE need, getting to the process of being condemned is ALREADY hard enough, then you're telling me the timer stops anytime they're so much as within my terror radius??? ON TOP OF THAT, you literally have enough time to do all 5 gens with your team, open exit gate and leave before you would EVER be close to being condemned, especially since its seriously THAT easy to get rid of. is this a joke. Like im serious, were the devs laughing while making this killer, cus its seriously laughable. I dont need to elaborate on this, like its not even a buff that would break anything, its literally just a balance buff lmao.
- (but actually 6 am i right) While Demanifested, the Onryo can walk through dropped pallets and window vaults. Doing so slows the Onryo down to 95% (3.8m/s) for 2 seconds.
This is the one I wanna give a bit of criticism on, I heavily disagree. For context, I main Nurse, Pyramid Head and Spirit, and two of those three being basically solely immune to pallets and vaults. Giving a killer thats essentially immune to pallets/vaults WHILE undetectable would be absolutely broken, even if slowed down 95% (which I dont quite get the math here, being slowed 100% would mean shes stationary, so shes going slower than vaulting/breaking the pallet..?). Every other killer (besides the two I listed lmao) basically has to deal with pallets and vaults. Killers like the Huntress dont need to deal with them, but her ability allows her to play around pallets and vaults, and theres a reason it works. Letting the onion walk through pallets and vaults simply because shes "demanifested" is a (sorry OP) really bad idea. That crosses the line of being balanced to broken, even with the slowdown. Remember, we're trying to balance her, not bust her. Get her to a point where her ability is both skill based and useful, and not "watch survivors ignore tapes simulator".
I know this was long, and anybody reading this (god help your soul), I really encourage you to reply to this, upvote it, etc., especially to my remarks since I'd love to know what people would think about this. The onion isn't low tier because of her ability, shes low tier because of the way BHVR executed the idea. Please do her justice (and point out any flaws that could come with these buffs), sorry for the long read and reply but please buff her :(