SentientBee
SentientBee
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Yeah the post by post response indicating a pretty clear disregard for the obvious is the only obstacle I can really see here.
The question in the OP was why do killers get hate for these things, and after getting the responses most follow ups have just been "too bad / that's the game / why is it my problem". People state pretty clearly why, it's not some kind of mystery. It sucks and it doesn't just suck for one side, it sucks for all parties. People just want the game to be and play better and we haven't gotten it yet. Not sure why that's hard to understand but overcoming that barrier is the first step.
Well, second step technically, BHVR could try dozens of potential fixes at any given time (fingers crossed for the upcoming update).
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026277#Comment_3026277
Yes, you did. The entire context of your post was clear in intention. But we will set that aside for now. I'm going to just give you some cold, hard facts. This is the game. This has always been the game. There are times you will get tunneled. There are times you will get camped. There are going to be games where you get tilted and when life (and death) seem unfair. When you get down to the nitty gritty of it all, that is why this game is so successful. It isn't fair. it is never going to be fair. With time and dedication you can get good enough to win most of your games, or succeed by most measurements. You will never get good enough to avoid the pitfalls of bad luck or enterprising opponents. That is as it should be. If we are to judge the health of the game by the results achieved, the DEV have done alright.
To coin a phrase from Al Gore, the inconvenient truth of Dead by Daylight is that the game succeeds because it is frustrating, elevates emotions, brings out both the best and worst in people. Those who can't handle it move on. Those that eventually get bored move on. It takes longer to get bored of Dead by Daylight because despite being repetitive in theory and most functions, every game is dynamic and a fingerprint. Video games that achieve a certain balance and fairness stagnate and die. This sad but true. Conflict and unfairness are baked into Dead by Daylight because it works. I don't know if they did it by accident or design, but it has worked for them so far.
Speaking of context and intention, it's clear the entire purpose of your post is simply to refuse to look at the other side and deny the reality of the situation. That's fine, not everyone is going to agree. But never did I state that inherent unfairness nor perfect balance were avoidable or achievable, respectively. You seem to be assuming a great deal about my intentions while waxing on about your own.
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026222#Comment_3026222
Ah, but you know better than the DEV? I mean they have only been working the game for 6+ years now. While I agree that none of us are omniscient, I would like to point out that the DEV know a good deal more about the game than you or I. For us it is a game; it is their job. I found this post you made very amusing and lacking in self-awareness. You don't like something so you complain about it. You don't care about the larger ramifications or the "health" of the game. You care about you. I assure you that the DEV care far more about the health of the game than any of us. Let me repeat, it is their job and job security is contingent upon the health of the game.
The ship is at sea and rocks and lists with each and every unpredictable wave and gust of wind. The nature of this game that perfect balance is utterly unattainable. It is a pipe dream. The best possible if for the DEV to steer as true a course through the waves and storms as they can. Their painfully slow, often infuriating method is because to overcorrect risks foundering and sinking the ship. I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think you are looking at this issue from an entirely self-centered and biased point of view. That is, to a degree, human nature. I think if you take a step back and think about how much you actually know about the game and how much you don't know, that my point will come home to you.
Not a single time did I say I know anything else about the game better than the devs, nor did I imply that the devs weren't trying to create solutions. For a post about awareness, you don't seem to be exhibiting much more than you imply I am.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026200#Comment_3026200
Your mindset that the killer playing the game to win in a way that you personally do not approve of as being toxic is a mindset problem. There is nothing inherently wrong with camping and tunneling regardless of how many gens have been done. The devs have also confirmed this as well.
A single hook is also not equivalent to scoring a point in a sports game. Hooking a survivor is a step in the direction for the killer to "score a point" as the killer's goal is to kill survivors they would "score a point" for each kill.
Again, simply because the devs condone or balance around it, doesn't mean that the gameplay is healthy. The devs, again, are not omniscient, or else none of these changes would happen at all, because it wouldn't matter, because it would be working as intended. As that's not the case, clearly there's some room for change.
Regardless of that, though, it's impossible to even have the discussion if the perpetual inability to address the issue is going to be so entrenched. Nobody deserves to be removed from the game for losing a single chase and it's obnoxious that this argument is still happening years later.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026165#Comment_3026165
Using tactics to win at 4/5 gens left vs 0 gens left is not an issue.
I get not liking being camped or tunneled, but killers are not necessarily doing it with the intent of being toxic to you. And I say this as someone who has been more survivor lately. Camping and Tunneling are not toxic behaviors, they are tactics that are effectively at turning the pressure into the killer's favor. The devs are simply trying to give survivors some basekit tools to deal with these tactics since at the end of the day the devs have said there is nothing wrong with tunneling or camping.
They can be wrong. They're not omniscient, they're also just people, trying to tweak and tinker until things come out a bit better than they were before.
The reality is plain and simple, and your refusal to call it so is telling. Someone just picking up the game for the first game is probably more apt to tunnel and camp someone out of the game than a nurse with 4k hours, but the result of both of them doing so isn't any different. Just because we're getting slightly better tools to not get camped and tunneled out of the game (themselves pretty far and away from actual solutions) doesn't mean that we should kiss the ground BHVR walk on or assume the core concern has been dealt with. It hasn't, and that's just the reality.
Camping and tunneling absolutely do get used specifically to be toxic. The same goes for slugging. It can also be said for the bully squads that sabotage and boil over or all swarm with flashlights clicking incessantly. Just because these things work doesn't automatically make them fair, balanced, or sporting, which you continue to disregard. That is the core issue that people want addressed. Not a DS rework for the fourth time, or an extended BT effect. People don't want to be stuck looping the killer until the exit gates are opened, it can be just as boring as not seeing the killer all game. People want the game to properly flow in a way where they aren't making a single mistake and getting ejected from the game for it, and especially, that killers aren't getting rewarded for doing so because teammates playing into that strategy cost the entire team, further exacerbating the lack of sportsmanship.
Or, put loosely into sports terms, if my team scores once, and we spend the other forty minutes just holding onto the ball. Doing nothing else, just refusing to let go. How do you think that would go over not only with the other team, but also the fans and other related parties? Not well, it's why there's rules around that in regular sports as well, hell, even in most other games.
There's multiple different ways to create pressure, and the inability to create pressure effectively is something killers have also wanted fixed. It's part of why their chase potential is getting buffed, even if it's not a particularly nuanced shift, it does prove that BHVR is aware of the ongoing issues.
And that's also why people continue to demand / are sick and tired of the band aid fixes about tunneling and camping. The gameplay just isn't heathy nor enjoyable for either party, a sentiment that's been echoing for long enough that we're getting these changes at all.
So sorry, not sorry, but toxic is as toxic does. Refusing to separate the ideas does not do you any favours. Something that is efficient can still be toxic. Just because it isn't always toxic doesn't mean it's never toxic.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026039#Comment_3026039
Camping and Tunneling both have legit uses and the killer isn't just trying to make your game miserable by engaging in those tactics. Sometimes the best move is to remove the injured survivor who was recently unhooked, because they ran themselves into you. Sometimes forcing the hook state is the best play, because their team waited too long to get the save. Treating good decisions in a game as being intentional toxic to you is a bad mindset to have.
There's nothing wrong with the devs making it harder for killers to camp and tunnel, but killers aren't toxic for doing so.
I understand the concept but disagree with it because after a point the reality is that camping and tunneling stop being those things when they are used tactically.
A survivor bodily throwing themselves at a killer takes a risk, BT or otherwise, it's not tunneling at that point, because the survivor in question was in control and made the equally tacit decision to either use BT or strategically assumes they can loop the killer better. A killer hooking a survivor in the middle of a solid three gen isn't camping because he's no longer giving up the other objectives to specifically remove one person from the game.
The crux is that intent matters, and tunneling / camping at 4/5 gens is not the same as having two hook states and sitting on a survivor in the EGC. Just because I call a spade a spade doesn't mean I've completely ignored nuance, it just wasn't brought up in the OP, which is what I was pointing out.
Additionally, and most importantly, the closing statement of the OP was "why CAN'T I do WHATEVER it takes". The answer remains, sportsmanship. Just because the game allows you to win using tactics and strategies that prioritize removing gameplay from other players doesn't mean that it's sporting. It just means that the game has deeper problems and until BHVR recognizes and balances around that, we can either try to recognize these things and play fair as a community... Or we can play like OP suggests, treating it (and the people playing it) like "it's just a game" and therefore, likewise, nobody should be treated any modicum of courtesy because we shouldn't care at all about anyone else playing with us. (Spoilers, also not cool).
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The immediate fallacy in your argument is that it explicitly disregards one of the primary purposes of camping and tunneling, which is that it's used to specifically impact individual players gameplay for the negative (ie; toxic). For all of BHVR's claims, the reality is that if the killer really wants one specific person dead, the odds are stacked significantly in their favour and this only increases exponentially if you play into it, actively punishing everyone except the person choosing to make the game miserable for everyone else. (This also plays into the issue with 'bully squads' and the like, on the flip side, where killers are equally disrespected in what should be 'just a game').
Secondarily, the immediate disregard for other players is palpable. "It's just a game" is a phrase that only gets used in two specific instances. When someone's taking it too seriously, or when someone isn't taking it seriously at all. Actively going out of your way to either abuse every possible advantage in what should be "just a game" is just as mindless and uninteresting as getting a single down and M1'ing them on hook until the Entity takes them. In both cases you're disregarding the simple reality that there's _real life people_ that have to play the game with you for the game to exist at all. Or in other words, if you were playing a round of football in the local park with your friends and you decided that the best way to win was to purposefully take a bat to another player's knees... Well funny that, real sports and real games have rules and consequences around these things. Suffice to say, I don't think you'd be around for another game after that.
The most basic premise is that of sportsmanship, something this game decisively lacks because of how the objectives and core gameplay are oriented (to say nothing of the community it seems to draw). You're not allowed to injure someone in sportsball, and most sportsball games aren't asymmetrical for a reason. BHVR's inability to shift their core gameplay or admit the fault in their design doesn't magically mean that the problem doesn't exist, it just means it isn't being addressed appropriately (something many people largely agree on).
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@JaviiMii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3003510#Comment_3003510
make the condition to have the game last five minutes. Make it that you need to accumulate at least 2k points in three categories. Make it that you have to repair the equivalent of a full gen. Many options to make sure people don't just get the invitation and dip by getting themselves hooked ASAP while also effectively guaranteeing masks in every match thats remotely normal.
I second the generator condition, if nothing else. As it stands, all it takes to not get a mask it to get tunneled at 5 gens or death hooked just before the gates open. You could earn 20k BP, finish three gens, run the killer for ten minutes, and still not get a mask in that game because of an atrocious conditional under the loosely enforced anti-throw clause. Meanwhile I can go pick it up and hide in a corner until the killer closes the hatch after my team have all died on their first hook.
It doesn't actually address any kind of toxicity on it's own, and is in fact exacerbated by existing toxicity (tunneling, slugging, sandbagging, etc) because any generic way you would ruin someone's game still applies, you just lose out on an additional thing now. Also, it's a finite reward, inevitably even if every single survivor specifically threw a game and killed themselves just to get the reward, eventually people wouldn't be throwing just to earn the cosmetics (although, this does nothing to address the ongoing throwing and the like that also still occurs in general, once again).
Additionally slash alternatively, just make the masks rewards as part of the community tome challenges. Bang, easy, now everybody has to contribute to a common goal, and if the data shows that games are still somehow being thrown en masse just to achieve this... _go back to the drawing board_ . It's not exactly high concept, it just sort of exposes itself as a symptom of a lot of other basic design struggles in terms of the games actual sportsmanship and objective design and how flawed it is from the ground up, in some specific areas.