EZ5k
EZ5k
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986561#Comment_986561
I feel like alot of your "math" is hugely exaggerated though. A single dead hard for example is very unlikely to add an extra 90 seconds onto a chase. You also listed off self-care as a 2nd chance perk. Frankly, if all 4 survivors in my lobby ran self-care...oh happy day. Thats alot of time spent self-caring instead of doing anything constructive.
We're talking red ranks here. A majority of which are SWF with high map knowledge, Game sense, and likeliness to run the exact loadouts I mentioned.
You can argue SC isn't a second chance perk, but then you have to ask yourself, is being given another health state a second chance. The answer is usually yes. So even in that first chase, when 3 gens pop, all your team needs is for the other 2 survs, aside from the one you're chasing and the one who's healing, to be on a generator, meaning that you've still applied zero pressure unless you turn it into a game of attrition, at which case, you should be running a 3 gen setup from the start and not just chasing people all game.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986529#Comment_986529
If a killer is constantly being thwarted by pallet and flashlight saves...thats on him.
It is, which is why they stopped being included in the total minimum saves, yet their presence should still be acknowledged.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986529#Comment_986529
I'm sorry but this entirely warped, any killer letting 14 pallet saves happen, and 4 flashlight saves happen, while tunneling borrowed time when they're at the hook when they could hit the saviour twice and save time fundamentally belongs in rank 20.
We're (from what I keep hearing from killers) supposed to be balancing around high ranked play, this story you've put together does not sound like high ranked play.
Edit: And in addition, you've set your sights on "Second Chance" perks but the majority of your "second chances" come from pallets & flashlights.
If you actually read the whole thing, those are POTENTIAL saves, total perk saves put it at 20. Good to see you fail to argue in good faith though. If you actually read the whole thing, you'd actually be able to piece together WHY second chance perks should go with Ruin, and again, I painted it out pretty clearly, it all comes down to time, of which, one perk can 100% win your team the game with a proper button press. But of course, Don't pay attention to the actual message, no wonder the game remains in shambles lmao
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986459#Comment_986459
How does one second chance perk mean everyone else in the match needs to be downed more?
If I somehow tunnel the entire team and they have DS each of them, I only have to down them all one more time, not 12 more times.
3 (Normal) + DS = (4) x 4 = 16 Your maths is very miscalculated.
Dead Hard, also seen as a "second chance" perk, you don't even down them more times than normal, you just miss a hit, which happens multiple times, so are we counting the killer missing hits as a second chance?
Deliverance, another "second chance" perk, requires you to be hooked, there is no extra downing involved.
Unbreakable, very easy to counter, you hook them, isn't always guaranteed, and if you left them on the floor there is no guarantee they wouldn't have been healed anyway and thats the killers choice to leave.
Because it generally isn't just one second chance perk, it's typically multiple. DBD breaks down into this at the lobby screen. 16 perks/4 per survivor. 25% of that will be self care typically, a second chance perk that has infinite uses and 0 counterplay other than "lol just tunnel bro". another 25% of that will be a variant of a move speed perk, in the form of dead hard (can quite easily reset an entire loop chain adding another 30-90 seconds, or another 2-3 gens). with the third 25% typically being a teamplay perk, (Borrowed Time, oh look another second chance perk with unlimited uses). with the fourth quarter typically being a fill slot for the players choice. This setup has been hailed for years as "The Holy Trinity" and has yet to be gutted on the level of any killer meta, which has a paltry 4 perks compared to 16, of which 25% can be disabled before you even get to it if you run a hex perk. Meaning that Hex perk better have a damn good payoff to make it worth the risk, which it just lost in this PTB, meaning it's effectively deleted from Killer play along with the killer characters who relied upon it to stand any semblance of a chance against survivors.
Math Breakdown:
4 survivors x 3 downs = 12
BT= +4 (total 16 downs)
Now suppose that each of that last 25% I mentioned as fill is yet another second chance perk, that number goes up to 20.
Add in flashlight saves, which aren't difficult in the slightest, and that's another 4 minimum, putting the total up to 24
Add in pallet saves, and that's potentially 14 extra saves, bumping it up to 38.
So while I miscalculated, the point remains, at absolute optimum efficiency of use, you have a minimum of 20 downs, or 3 extra gens on the survivor side.
TIme Breakdown:
Factoring in that a chase can easily last 90 seconds before your first down, that's 3 gens done, totaling 60% of their objectives completed. Throw in a dead hard in that first chase, and there's quite literally enough time there to go by for a single survivor to efficiently chain loop you for the entirety of a match while people hold M1. The reason Dead Hard get's considered a second chance, is because if both sides are playing optimally, it resets the chain loop. You can of course continue handwaving, but people with enough experience in the game on killers will attest that it's entirely possible to be looped for the entire game.
The common answer to what I just suggested is "just go find another survivor", at which point you've wasted 3 gens, and that person is free to heal up or do a gen while you go find someone else, negating any pressure you're about to apply.
Ruin's role:
Before this absolute smooth brained nerf of Ruin, it allowed you to be able to make *mistakes* in those chases without losing an extreme amount of ground. Where you AND the devs fail to understand the most critical time of the game is. The perk isn't used to get Iri gatekeeper, or to farm up more points, it's exclusively used to get more time and mitigate error, something survivors in the game get to do willy nilly.
Ruin's Role on non meta killers;
Running ruin on Clown, Hag, Trapper, Wraith, Doctor and other less seen killers was a gamble. It either gave you enough time to set up your traps or select your gens for the late game standoff, or it got busted in the first 15 seconds crippling your entire choice of killer putting an insane amount of pressure on you, the supposed power role.
Fundamentally not understanding what I've listed above is what clearly lead to this nerf, and what will ultimately result in this game following the same trend as Evolve did.
Is that simple enough for you?
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986441#Comment_986441
I didn't say that was the solution, only that you were incorrect to say Ruin hasn't really been removed. Its name still exists but the perk is gone.
I don't think removing those perks is a good answer, but some could definitely use adjustments. The change has made it so that the survivors move from an early game where they no longer have anything to worry about except sitting on gens, to a mid game where countless second chances allow them to dictate the pace of the match still. Even the "counters" to most second chance perks like the killer slugging someone for a minute or not tunneling to avoid BT are beneficial to survivors.
They're dropping the ruin changes because it took "months of work to come up with and now it's done" rather than holding it off until the issues with changing it can be addressed at the same time.
So yes, as I discussed here earlier in this thread: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/985151#Comment_985151 I think adjusting some of the survivor perks that dictate the pacing of the game is one of the options the devs can take to make the loss of Ruin not destroy the killer role for many players, but that's not to say delete perks.
He's quoting my suggestion of removing them, because much like yourself, it's not hard to foresee that second chance perks quite literally dictate the game. As it stands, you can play perfectly, and then have to rewin that same game multiple times simply because a team came in with a bunch of second chance perks and toolboxes.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986432#Comment_986432
and to address this we should just entirely remove several perks from the survivor side? This sounds more like "I want revenge and en eye for an eye" rather than a "this helps things"
I've also just read @EZ5k previous post where he thinks second chance perks means you have to down survivors a "minimum" of 48 times if they run second chance perks. This is a little far fetched as I don't think any match in the history of DBD has had 48 downs.
Couple things here:
1) Without any second chance perks or saves, you have a minimum down count of 12 if you're playing as the devs intend you to play. If each person gets a second chance perk, that doubles to 24, if that team has 2 second chance perks, it goes to 36, and if they incorporate pallet saves and optimal flashes, it jumps at the least up to 48. While you are correct that most matches don't have that many downs, most matches are also finished within 3 minutes, with an overwhelming decisive victory by either side, usually carried by a specific set of perks, which we call a meta. The reason you balance your game around optimal play, is because as the depip squad from ages ago showed, you can walk in as a survivor without any items, communications, or perks, and still cause a killer to depip by simply knowing how to use pallet saves and time management.
2) If I wanted revenge, I'd immediately demand total gen count be increased rather than asking for a core overhaul as the design philosophy behind the title so desperately needs. If you want to be petty about it here, and I mean truly petty, absolutely zero of these "balance" patches would be pushed out by a professional team, as they lack a basic understanding of why the perk was ran so often in the first place, (it wasn't about score, but about time management as any experienced killer will explain to you).
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986401#Comment_986401
Except you're asking for perks to be removed, ruin was reworked, not removed.
and you're asking for multiple perks to be removed which is kind of ridiculous.
Ruin is effectively removed. You could call it by an entirely different name, and nobody would recognize it until you had told them it was a rework, it'd even be likely mistaken for Dying Light.
The reason I ask for that, is again, due to the entire situation surrounding why Ruin was necessary. If you completely removed Ruin, there'd be no difference in how the game plays out versus how it plays out now (Post Nerf). Both give survivors incentive to remain on their objective, and if you combine that with how much EXTRA time they can buy without any real skill needed, you wildly lopside the game against the power role, which on a design basis SHOULD NOT BE OCCURRING.
I address patches like this from a developer's point of view strictly because that's how you should be viewing major core gameplay changes, not by faction bias but by "How does this fit in with the game's core concepts". In this case, the answer is, it doesn't, and sends the message to an entire portion of the playerbase that their fun doesn't matter.
The game at this point needs a fairly drastic overhaul of the entire survivor side, as they are the Power role, in a design philosophy where that shouldn't be the case.
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It's not really a matter of "proving killers right", as the patch notes do that well enough on their own. People are just tired of being told they don't matter as part of the playerbase, it's happened time and again for years now with the different generations of killers. Hell it took a killer strike last time to even get the Devs to acknowledge the severe imbalance issues back in 2017.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/986371#Comment_986371
Removing perk isn't the way to go, this shouldn't be an "Eye for an eye". Second chance perks can be countered, and are countered very often, they aren't a huge reason as to why killers don't get kills.
Ruin was also extremely counterable, by your logic here, it shouldn't have been touched. If you read my expanded explanation, it makes more sense as to why they need to go. Imagine if killers had a perk that required the overall gen completion to be a minimum of 20. It'd be utterly ridiculous. That's the pressure put on killers on the timeline, as now you either play 100% efficient or you quit the game, there's no inbetween.
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Also, to explain upon my previous post a bit. The core issue for killers is time. New ruin deletes every killer without mobility from the game if you're looking to be efficient, meaning you're left with Billy, Spirit, and MAYBE Oni (Maybe because I haven't given him a proper shake yet). The trap killers are forced to play 3 gen basement setup if they want to get anything remotely close to efficient, and everyone else can just get deleted for how often they'll be played.
Now, with the Ruin change itself, most efficient thing to do is just run your swf, if you get found, hightail it to the nearest safe area, chain loop for the match or until the killer loses interest, at which point you go back to your gen and the next person repeats this step. Now, with second chance perks, your 12 downs effectively get quadrupled at the minimum to 48, assuming they're only running one second chance perk and not using any of the other plethoras.
On the killer side, new ruin just encourages me to run Ruin, Thanatophobia, Surveillance, and Haunted ground for optimal pressure.
Removing those second chance perks would incredibly, and I mean incredibly even the playing field, as people like Ardetha have even stopped mid game to count how often they've had to rewin the same match because people get carried by those perks with minimal effort.
(Edited to correct miscalculation)
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If they aren't going to touch gen times, then they need to remove every second chance perk. Short of an extreme total overhaul of the Survivor's core objective, there's nothing they can do now to actually stop the exodus of killers. Having played since Q4 2016, I've seen plenty of generations of killers just stop playing, and it's clear they haven't learned their lesson as a dev team.