apophis13
apophis13
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945383#Comment_3945383
Some chess masters know they lost after the first move. There are no chess masters that flip the board after that one move.
There's one thing in common between chess and DBD. No one wants to play with table flippers.
By the way, chess-masters don't know if they're going to lose on the first move. All of the opening are well known and understood even by beginners. It's after the opening that the game begins.
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@killer_hugs said:
Not far enough:
Anti-camp - rarely ever works, killers still hard camp all day long
Ant-tunnel - basekit borrowed time doesn't dissuade hard tunneling at all. and perks that survivors bring de-activate in the end game. based on the current kill rates there is no reason OTR and DS shouldn't be active the entire game.
Abandon - need more situations when the abandon feature activates
Too far:
AFK crows - why is so much effort made to ensure features don't interfere with a killer's normal gameplay (see above) yet ZERO effort here is made to ensure these stupid crows don't interfere with survivor's normal gameplay. the bias here is insane
"Go next prevention" - some games are OVER long before everyone is dead and the system does not account for that at all.
The game is good as is. They don't really need to fix anything.
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Honestly, they don't need to change anything. The game is already fine. First off, we all have to understand the DBD is lovingly and charmingly toxic. This is the only reason to play it. Otherwise, it's just another copy and paste arena game, and those are boring. And, besides, if DBD tries to make itself boring and sterile, it will just be outcompeted by bigger companies that already have a plethora of micro-transaction arena games, like Fortnight, Marvel, a new CoD every year, etc.Now, to the point.
Yes, lots of people in this game do things others don't like. Survivors do things killers don't like. Killers do things survivors don't like. This is why the game is good. Literally. Yes, it's true, if you make it so that survivors can relentlessly bully killers, then the game breaks, and if you make it (this will never happen because survivors, um, outnumber killers…by design) so that killers just crush survivors every match, I guess that would break the game too, but, again, that's unlikely.
Anyways, the game is fine. You win some. You lose some. You will get trolled. That's why we're all here. Period. They need to allow people to play whatever strategy that they want, and that's ok! I mostly play killer. I don't mind getting bullied by survivors. I've been bullied my whole life. But here, when people bully me, I get to cut them down and put them on a hook. It's so much fun! Teabag me! Flashlight me! Drop pallets on me! I love it! I want more! If you stopped, I'd get bored and go play a non-PvP game because normally, I hate PvP because it's boring. But, here, you actually feel investment because of the delicious and delightful toxicity. So, if a survivor wants to pick that laboratory place every time? Cool with me. I've seen that place so much that I've got it memorized! It was your home? Now, it's my home too! If you want to disconnect? I don't mind.
I do play survivor too. There are weekly survivor quests, and I do them. Also, this week, when I saw that 2.5x, I chose survivor. I haven't even played a killer yet this week because I didn't feel like it. I generally get crushed by killers, but, whatever. It's fun. It's less fun, though, for me, because I'm not much of a bully. So, I don't want to bully the killer. I mostly just try to finish generators and try to avoid the killer, but, you know, whatever. Survivor isn't fun to me, but that's totally a personality thing. But, it's clear to me that lots of people love it. So, yes, this is a bad change.
All of the planned changes? Also bad. They need to just let people play the game and realize that a certain amount of whining is just going to happen. All of the different strategies is great! Honestly, when you play one of the "bad" killers, sometimes you just win because survivors aren't used to seeing that killer all the time, and they get taken off guard. Yeah, sure, with a really experienced SWF, playing Hag all your totems are down in less than a minute, but when you play people that forget about those and are just going generators while you're setting up, it is hilarious when you finally get down to business and chaos ensues. When it works, it's great, even if usually it doesn't. And, that's ok. The point of playing a game is to have fun, not to win. I have lost many times and still had fun. Honestly, the game is great right now. They need to stop trying to fix stuff and just concentrate on content. It's great! Don't change it!
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I think it's more a question of what you reasonably can and can't control in terms of human behavior. Ultimately, BHVR develops the game, but they absolutely MUST accept that there are limits on their ability to control player behavior. Players will come up with strategies to play the game and have fun. Players might not even care about winning or BP or whatever. People might play because it's fun. As a Killer, I've lost plenty of times and still had fun.
It's true that this game is toxic. Additionally, if this game wasn't toxic, in a fun and charming way, I wouldn't be playing it. It would just be another copy-and-paste arena game. The developers literally cannot fix this. If they do, they won't have a game anymore. -
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945383#Comment_3945383
Some chess masters know they lost after the first move. There are no chess masters that flip the board after that one move.
There's one thing in common between chess and DBD. No one wants to play with table flippers.
OK, and if you try to force people to play, you're just going to fail. It doesn't matter what you do. They can literally get up and leave their computer and go outside and take a walk if they want, and you literally can't do anything about it. You are but a brief phenomenon in a very big and endless world, and it might pain you that you control nothing, but that's just how it is. But, worry not. We're all in the same boat. You can't control me, and I can't control you.
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@jayoshi said:
I was talking to my friends about how I was worried it would count someone being tunneled out first as "giving up".
I mean they can't even do a ban for someone have 200 times speed from hacks or finishing a gen right away. So I'm not surprised by this at all.
BHVR please get rid of it and while we are at it please remove all the hand holding and forcing people to play a certain way - killer and survivor. It's killing this game for me. My wallet will thank me, but I'm close to just leaving DBD. It has gotten out of control.
Yes, please. Stop trying to force people. We'll figure it out! Promise! <3
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I'm a killer main, and I hate these changes. If you don't want to play, I don't want to force you. That would be insane. If you want to leave, or if you have an emergency that forces you to leave, that's totally fine by me. I think you should keep the BP you've already earned, also. I do think that Killers should get bonus BP when survivors quit, of course. That's fun! As for slugging, well, that's a strategy. So is camping. So is tunneling. So is anything else. I don't want to force you to play the way you don't want to, and, let's be honest, you'll never get me to play the way you want me to. You're not my hostage, and I'm not your hostage. If they made this game so that it's nothing but a survivor bully killer session, then I'll go play another of my 2700 Steam games. Anyone would.
But, yeah, if you want to drop a pallet and then blind me with your flashlight, then I want to tunnel you to death, then that's just part of the game. This game is pretty toxic, and that is exactly the charm of it. Normally, I'd never play a low-effort arena game. But, this game happens to be fun specifically because of the toxic social dynamic! -
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945364#Comment_3945364
Are you asking for no consequence to leaving a match early. That players can be free to end their involment at anytime and move to another match just to do the same? Because we've been there, done that. 3v1 are not fun and not balanced for the survivor side. Especially at 5 gens. If a game essentially ends after the first down why would players wait in queue just to face the same thing again?
Oh, yeah, absolutely, don't try to force someone to play if they don't want to. It's not that strange, and this isn't a new problem.
Ever heard of chess? I love it. It's older than video games. I used to play competitively in high school. You know what happens when it's clear that your opponent is going to crush you in a tournament? I mean, when you are playing out of your league. You resign! Also, it's polite to resign such cases. It's totally ok!
Now, practice, you probably should play better placers, of course, just to get better. But, no one should force you to play. That's crazy.
So, yes, absolutely, I think there should be no penalty if someone doesn't want to play. They aren't your hostage. It's polite and courteous to allow someone to resign if they wish to. It's civilized behavior. -
I main killer, but when that Survivor bonus is 2.5x, then, personally, I'm playing the Survivor (and putting the BP into killer)! You get 50K from matches even when you suck. (And, I do suck at survivor).
And, also, I've personally seen the game claim I'm intentionally dying when I'm doing my best. (The game is like…I don't believe you that you suck this bad…take a penalty.) But, I promise, I really do. Chasing down a survivor? No problem. Running from a killer? No clue. Pallets or something, if I can find one. -
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945345#Comment_3945345
So you admit they are what governs the game. So a contract exists.
Your issue is how they govern. You see, that's two different things.
You know that people renege on social contracts all the time, right? It's just a nominal human behavioral strategy. Other primates do this also. It's not just humans. You aren't going to be able to escape it. So, embrace it and move on. And, besides which, the fact that I would deny that the community even exists in the first place means that any "contract" you imagine is, well, imaginary.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945327#Comment_3945327
This is a strange tangent to go on, but I'll ask this:
Why is the killer not bound by this same standard?
I've had games where killers afk, or go face a corner. Why does this system not equally punish that behavior here?
It still ruins the match for 4 other players, yet seemingly none of these afk detection or go next systems even attempt to make sure the killer is active in the game.
I normally play killer. This one time, during a match, suddenly I realized that I had a need that couldn't wait. I rushed to the rest-room, only taking time to grab my favorite bathroom book, which is an atlas and timelines of history book. I was not back quickly! My digestive system, in this instance, wished to be thorough. When I returned, the players all were saying "Thank you" in the chat as I saw the match over screen. So, they didn't seem inconvenienced. And, if someone feels like I should be banned for having a bathroom emergency, or even frequent ones, then I'm not sure what to say. But, honestly, I don't think that either behavior should be banned. If someone leaves a match, they'll probably lose the match. It's a self-solving problem.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945333#Comment_3945333
I wonder what this thread is about then? I wonder who decides what the rules are? I wonder who has the power to ban players?
Curiouser and curiouser.
Yes, they do have the power to ban players from their video game, of course. They seem to be using that power to ban people who are cleansing totems and missing skill checks and getting killed too quickly, apparently. And, that's because social conditioning is a complicated art, because people are intelligent and creative and have agency. They should make the game balanced and not try to micromanage every interaction and let players come up with their own play strategy. At the end of the day, that's the only limit of their power. Sure, they can ban everyone, but they are a company selling a product. So, this would be a strange decision. But, if they do ban us all, I have like 1000 games on Steam that I've literally never played. I'd probably be relieved, tbh.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945013#Comment_3945013
This goes beyond anything I would've considered reasonable. I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, but… wow.
It really feels like they read some of the feedback on the forums about "punishing survivors for existing" and just pushed that live.
(Playful tone.) Hey, I take offense to this <3 I'm a Killer main. I punish survivors for existing already! So, they need to remove all these dumb changes and leave it up to me! I got it!
But, yes, these changes are terrible. I want the survivors to be able to play however they want, obviously. I already have the tools I need to deal with people forever hiding, which, by the way, is a behavior I've literally only seen once in about 600 matches, and it took me about 3 minutes to fix it and get a 4K. They don't need an "AFK System". My (in-game) knife is the AFK system! -
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945302#Comment_3945302
When you are under contract, you can go against what is in the contract but not without repercusions. Players agree to play a match when you hit ready or waitout the timer. It was you and only you who decided to join the match.
The government has police that work for them and enforce their will. Whether or not any contract is real and enforceable is up to the government. Does BHVR have police that enforce this supposed contract which you have imagined in your head? No. Thus, there is no contract.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945097#Comment_3945097
What do you call it when something that isn't broken is used to break something else?
Human agency. Good luck trying to solve that one! It's just the nature of a multiplayer game.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945097#Comment_3945097
A number of players leaving matches over petty reasons is an issue. Also this not new, before the disconnect penalty these same people would DC without restraint. I continuely run into survivors that give up after one hook. Run to me wanting to get hooked again if another teammate got to them in time. How as a survivor are you expected to play with teammates like that? The harder it is for players to leave early the better. Either they learn how to play with others or not play at all.
Sure, people do things. People do things you don't like sometimes. But, you're never going to force people to do what you want them to do all the time. People are independent and creative and have agency. They do things. The best you can do is drive people away, which is what the game is literally doing right now.
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I'm a killer main. I suck pretty bad at survivor. In fact, I'm so bad at survivor that the game apparently thinks I'm dying on purpose even when I'm literally trying to escape in order to do your benchmarks quests. But, that's another issue entirely.
Anyways, every change they made is bad. First off, if survivors pick a map a lot, then I see the map a lot, and I tend to be better at that map than maps I don't see as much :D That Hawkins laboratory? Yeah, I see it a TON. That's ok. I basically know it like the back of my hand now.
I've played about 600 matches, give or take. I've only had (two remaining) survivors try to hide literally once, and I just found them and killed them.
This game literally needs no changes. They should just undo these recent changes then stop making major changes to the game. It's fun. It works. You win some, you lose some. People troll you sometimes, but that's whatever. Welcome to the internet. They should just leave well enough alone and stop trying to fix what isn't broken. The game is fine as is. -
@Mr_K said:
There's always room for improvement.
It's called fixing what isn't broken, and it's a terrible idea generally.
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Yeah, it's a total nightmare. You are never going to make a game better by trying to constantly chase whining. The game was already basically perfect. You win some; you lose some. It's toxic, and that is genuinely a feature and why people play. I could explain the psychology of DBD and why it's fun while most "arena" based games just aren't, but that would take more typing than I feel like right now. The only thing that they could do was break things that are working, which this patch is an example of.
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You no longer die from missing two in a row. That's true. But, if you miss any, it says that you are doing it on purpose. Those wheels do keep spinning after you push the button. They can be hard to time.
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Oh, right, and then it locks you out of matches, but doesn't even tell you unless you try to join. Wow, this is really messed up.
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Well, they say that you "intentionally" die even when you are doing your very best and just miss a skill check. It's really messed up in my opinion. Basically, the game says that if you ever make a mistake that you just died on purpose. It's really punishes less skilled players in a really unfair way.